How would you apply the Church's social teachings on economics, etcetera? NOT an abortion thread!

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Hi folks!

What specific sorts of public policies would you like to see enacted based upon how you read the Church’s teachings on:
  1. Social justice? (Restricted to fair treatment for the poor and and economically oppressed people of any given society).
  2. Worker’s rights?
  3. The environment?
  4. Care for the elderly, disabled?
  5. Racial, ethnic, and national discrimination?
Specifically out-of-bounds in this thread: discussions of abortion/pro-life issues or of same-sex relationships, both of which already generate sufficient other discussions both in this forum and elsewhere. If you can think of other social issues NOT related to these two topics, PM me and I’ll consider including them.
 
  1. School vouchers targeted FIRST for the poor / disadvantaged. Education = opportunity and poor folks often lack opportunity for decent education. IMO, they should do a better job on the NCLB testing and anybody in a school that fails to meet standards for 3 years in a row become eligible for vouchers.
    1a. Immigration reform: Increase legal quota to about 80% of what is happening now illegally anyways, offer plea bargains to existing illegals with eventual path to citizenship, seal the border and diligently prosecute further illegals.
    1b. Fund adoption with tax revenue.
    1c. Increase college assistance, but make ‘em work for it. Keep B average or lose funding, pronto.
  2. Stop tax credit of offshoring jobs. Duh.
  3. Use Strategic Oil reserve as price stabilizer for oil. Buy whenever gas price goes below $2.50 / gallon. Hold when gas is between $2.50 and $3.00. Sell if gas exceeds $3.50 (within limits). Raise price standards over time to encourage efficiency.
    3a. Use profits from #3 above to subsidize home energy efficiency. Require all new homes to have passive solar window / flooring configuration, efficient window treatments and weathersealing. Fund photovoltaic research for solar roofing.
  4. Transition wealthy away from Social Security.
    4b. Reimpose big death tax. You can’t take it with you and taxing inheritance will have MUCH lower negative impact on investment than taxation of active business enterprises.
    4c. Close loopholes. I’m tired of hearing lawyer ads for “How safeguard your savings and have Medicare pay for your nursing home.” Grrrr.
  5. End color based quotas. No reason Obama’s daughter’s should get preference from Harvard over white coal miner’s daughter. Affirmative Action should be based on NEED, not color. That time is over.
 
  1. School vouchers targeted FIRST for the poor / disadvantaged. Education = opportunity and poor folks often lack opportunity for decent education. IMO, they should do a better job on the NCLB testing and anybody in a school that fails to meet standards for 3 years in a row become eligible for vouchers.
    1a. Immigration reform: Increase legal quota to about 80% of what is happening now illegally anyways, offer plea bargains to existing illegals with eventual path to citizenship, seal the border and diligently prosecute further illegals.
    1b. Fund adoption with tax revenue.
    1c. Increase college assistance, but make ‘em work for it. Keep B average or lose funding, pronto.
  2. Stop tax credit of offshoring jobs. Duh.
  3. Use Strategic Oil reserve as price stabilizer for oil. Buy whenever gas price goes below $2.50 / gallon. Hold when gas is between $2.50 and $3.00. Sell if gas exceeds $3.50 (within limits). Raise price standards over time to encourage efficiency.
    3a. Use profits from #3 above to subsidize home energy efficiency. Require all new homes to have passive solar window / flooring configuration, efficient window treatments and weathersealing. Fund photovoltaic research for solar roofing.
  4. Transition wealthy away from Social Security.
    4b. Reimpose big death tax. You can’t take it with you and taxing inheritance will have MUCH lower negative impact on investment than taxation of active business enterprises.
    4c. Close loopholes. I’m tired of hearing lawyer ads for “How safeguard your savings and have Medicare pay for your nursing home.” Grrrr.
  5. End color based quotas. No reason Obama’s daughter’s should get preference from Harvard over white coal miner’s daughter. Affirmative Action should be based on NEED, not color. That time is over.
Thanks for participating.

What specific documents of the Church are you citing for these sorts of policies?
 
Citation is for scholars, which I ain’t!

I read all kinds of stuff, but don’t necessarily footnote. The old encyclical Rerum Novarum is perhaps the second greatest unheeded treasure of 20th Century catholicism (Humanae Vitae and its offspring, the Theology of the Body being first). It exposes the lie that unrestrained capitalism is the only alternative to creeping socialism and the only way to run a “free market economy.”

The bishops talk a lot about immigration and make good points. I don’t have specific documents for you.

Offshoring is just a blatant attempt to make more money while not paying workers as much. No reason tax policy should reward that behavior or the waste inherent in shipping products half way across the world when they could be made a state away.
 
Hi folks!

What specific sorts of public policies would you like to see enacted based upon how you read the Church’s teachings on:
  1. Social justice? (Restricted to fair treatment for the poor and and economically oppressed people of any given society).
I would like to greatly increase tax on natural resources including land. The proceeds would be divided up equally among every person in society, and either used as a cash rebate to form a minimum income (maybe a bad idea for some people) or for direct social services that would aid the poor. “The meek shall inherit the earth”.
 
Hi folks!

What specific sorts of public policies would you like to see enacted based upon how you read the Church’s teachings on:
  1. Social justice? (Restricted to fair treatment for the poor and and economically oppressed people of any given society).
Enact a Peace Corps style aid structure for the US. It’s a teach the man to fish concept. Break the welfare system as it stands now. It often results in legalized slavery and stands against the precept of protecting the dignity of the human person. Encourage the same in other countries. Encourage more service by citizens and stop trying to strangle the life out of faith based initiatives.
  1. Worker’s rights?
    Give the government the power to disband unions which exploit workers. Disallow union involvement in politial activities. Require full disclosure to employees on union finances and activities. Enact right to work laws in all states.
  2. The environment?
    End pork barrelling. Require true scholarship behind all environmental initiatives. Encourage alternative energy and energy independance.
  3. Care for the elderly, disabled?
    Allow expanded tax deductions for care of elderly family members. Overturn all eugenics based policies and legalized euthanasia.
  4. Racial, ethnic, and national discrimination?
    Enforcing current law is all we need on this front in the US. Monitor Affirmative Action and ensure it is dropped when the disproportion is remedied to avoid reverse discrimination.
Specifically out-of-bounds in this thread: discussions of abortion/pro-life issues or of same-sex relationships, both of which already generate sufficient other discussions both in this forum and elsewhere. If you can think of other social issues NOT related to these two topics, PM me and I’ll consider including them.
You are posting like you are a moderator. If you are, I think you are supposed to put the “moderator” designation in your name box. 🙂
 
  1. End color based quotas. No reason Obama’s daughter’s should get preference from Harvard over white coal miner’s daughter. Affirmative Action should be based on NEED, not color. That time is over.
Colleges have not used “quotas” for quite some time. They were stopped when litigation happened at a handful of schools about 20 years ago if I remember the time period correctly. I know for certain that the case against the U. of TX’s law school was at least before 1991because it happened before I went to law school.

Discrimination based on race/color/gender was still happening right into the 1970s, so things have not magically become even after almost 200 years of legal discrimination. My father’s parents had to scrape up tuition to send him to boarding school for high school in the early 1960s instead of saving for college because he could not attend the whites only county high school that their taxes helped to fund. The state didn’t give them a break on paying property and school taxes just because their kids would not benefit from them.

My father went into the military as an enlisted person to have a chance at a decent life, so the effects of legal discrimination passed right onto myself and my siblings. We had no parent who attended a university to give us the advantage of a legacy admission. We did not have the advantage of a father with a college degree who could earn an officer’s salary and pay for tutors or private school for us. We had to bust our behinds studying so that we could get into college because “affirmative action” did not guarantee anyone admission to a particular college, just the chance to be actually considered for admission.

I’m not stating all of this to say “poor me” but rather to point out that the effects of legalized discrimination didn’t magically stop the day that the law changed or because a small percentage of minorities have had high visibility success in certain fields of endeavor. Many of us have been able to work hard and succeed, but it does not mean that parity has been achieved. It does means that things have improved quite a bit over the past 40 years.

BTW, a white, coal miner’s daughter would get special consideration at college admission for her circumstances. Obama’s daughters would be double legacies at Harvard regardless of their color so that is how they would be admitted, in the same manner that GW Bush got into college with his less than stellar academic record.
 
Universities may not publicize their color quota, but you had better believe they still use byzantine schemes to “achieve racial diversity.” Call it what you want, but when a less qualified applicant is admitted on the basis of color instead of a more qualified applicant with a skin color not in accord with “diversity goals” what you have is plain old discrimination.

I see it at work too. Certain design contracts with the government have minimum MBE percentage requirements (minority business enterprise). The thery might be nice, but the reality is most of these requirements get met by gamesmanship and we have to pass on highly qualified subconsultants because the owner is the “wrong” color to meet requirements.

IMO, it is not progress to impose rigid requirements like these. Instead of fighting prejudice, they perpetuate it.
 
You are posting like you are a moderator. If you are, I think you are supposed to put the “moderator” designation in your name box. 🙂
Sorry if I gave that impression. I had a thread hijacked recently and wanted to restrict participation as much as possible to the topic at hand as possible.

Frankly I wish that folks would be a bit more clear and specific about where they are deriving their ideas about economics from in the documents of the Church. My sense is that Church social teaching would NOT favor unrestrained free enterprise economics. NOR would it favor socialism. Actually, I get he impression Catholic social teaching is rather a hodgepodge, but tends to lean on most economic issues in the direction of liberalism. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I also would distinguish between liberalism, social democracy, socialism, and Marxism. Liberalism is NOT synonymous with either social democracy or socialism, let alone with Marxism.

Liberals, within the American political context, believe that for various reasons, all presently-extant social orders create an enormous number of social and physical ills even when the intentions and the primary intended effects are good.

Jim Doe invents a new widget or a miracle drug which addresses a real need and helps many many people to meet some sort of real need. Unbeknownst to Jim Doe, at least for many years, the productive processes of his new widget or drug expose his workers to substances that make some of them ill, although the effects of this are not seen or recognized for years. Worse: the business environment where Jim Doe sets up shop makes it prohibitive for him to have created a company medical benefit which could have helped treat the illnesses his workplace was creating. Ultimately, the workers who become ill become unable to work. Liberalism says Jim Doe has created, despite his good intentions and despite the good effects of his product, a social ill which Jim Doe and others will have to help mitigate in some manner.

Liberalism sees all or most of us creating or contributing to similar such social ills all the time: we buy the cheapest (or the most-prestigious) coffee or clothes or makeup without concern for the fact that those products are made by manufacturers who take the least care to mitigate the social ills of their productive processes; OR we work at places where we know that social ills are being perpetuated, even though our employer may be operating fully within the current law and according to; etcetera.

Liberalism does NOT want to nationalize productive resources or private property, only to use government to mitigate social ills. Social democracy,does not want to nationalize all private property–only key economic resources within the country. Socialism by contrast DOES seek to nationalize private property and the productive resources of a nation. Marxism is an economic theory which proposes that capitalism is driven by it’s own internal forces towards an implosion which will ultimately leave behind some sort of socialist society.

Everything I have seen so far leads me to think that a lot of the posters on this board have somehow concluded that Catholic social teaching is absolutely synonymous with Republican-party laissez-fair capitalism. My sense of thing–taken largely second-hand and third-hand, regretably–is that this simply is not accurate.
 
Everything I have seen so far leads me to think that a lot of the posters on this board have somehow concluded that Catholic social teaching is absolutely synonymous with Republican-party laissez-fair capitalism. My sense of thing–taken largely second-hand and third-hand, regretably–is that this simply is not accurate.
Strangely, in the papal documents that deal with laissez-faire capitalism, they refer to it as “liberalism” 😃

Quadragesimo Anno is a good document to read about the church’s position against laissez-faire capitalism but also against socialism.
  1. And while the principles of Liberalism were tottering, which had long prevented effective action by those governing the State, the Encyclical On the Condition of Workers in truth impelled peoples themselves to promote a social policy on truer grounds and with greater intensity, and so strongly encouraged good Catholics to furnish valuable help to heads of States in this field that they often stood forth as illustrious champions of this new policy even in legislatures. Sacred ministers of the Church, thoroughly imbued with Leo’s teaching, have, in fact, often proposed to the votes of the peoples’ representatives the very social legislation that has been enacted in recent years and have resolutely demanded and promoted its enforcement.
  1. A new branch of law, wholly unknown to the earlier time, has arisen from this continuous and unwearied labor to protect vigorously the sacred rights of the workers that flow from their dignity as men and as Christians. These laws undertake the protection of life, health, strength, family, homes, workshops, wages and labor hazards, in fine, everything which pertains to the condition of wage workers, with special concern for women and children. Even though these laws do not conform exactly everywhere and in all respects to Leo’s recommendations, still it is undeniable that much in them savors of the Encyclical, On the Condition of Workers, to which great credit must be given for whatever improvement has been achieved in the workers’ condition.
I guess terms have changed their meanings!
 
. My sense is that Church social teaching would NOT favor unrestrained free enterprise economics. NOR would it favor socialism. Actually, I get he impression Catholic social teaching is rather a hodgepodge, but tends to lean on most economic issues in the direction of liberalism. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I also would distinguish between liberalism, social democracy, socialism, and Marxism. Liberalism is NOT synonymous with either social democracy or socialism, let alone with Marxism.
.
Whatever the social teaching, I would say HOW you apply them is important. How much force do you use ? Do you let consceince and free will act on Chruch teachings? or do the social teachings come with a Heavy enforcement hand?

You ask what sorts of public policies you would like to see be enacted. That sounds like using the force of law.

We see the gov’t using tax structure, zoning regulations, endless laws and regulations to steer the size of familes smaller, make a one income family almost impossible, and other choices individuals make. Will social teaching on the enviornment with the focus on carbon credits make it a law for one child – some people are talking extra taxes on a second child, and very high taxes on a third child because they harm our world. We see since FDR, social secuirty and welfare, we have money taken from us, much which goes to running the system, and some goes to benefit the target people. Prior to those systems people, churches, and communities directly helped those in need , without part of it going to support a bloated system. The end result is some people think " I give enough in taxes, that poor person can go to gov’t programs for help " Rather than helping human to human directly.

On worker’s rights or enviornment, we have seen the laws on getting more rights help in the short term but in the long term end up costing jobs, which hurt the family. Would church teaching on the enviornment save the spotted owl and cost timber jobs which hurt kids ?

On each issue it REALLY depends on how the people in power want to enforce it, just look at how Catholics in charge Rep Nancy Pelosi and Sen John Kerry enact their understanding of the Catholic faith and social teachings.

With some charities going to gov’t to get tax money that is taken from people under the force of law, then is there free will ? The faith based groups have the structure of gov’t behind them.

On a matter of life and death (the issue you don’t want discussed here) you use the force of law to protect life,
but on other issues I would say that applying any of the Church’s social teaching has to be done with a gentle hand and not use any force. Not making public policy ( a law) with all the consequeces which brings enforcement and penalties for not following the law.

So how would I apply the teachings ? by teaching and encouraging; But not by “enacting” .
 
Many of the issues you brought up are worth discussing. I will focus on one for now. That is the environment. While I have not read any encyclicals that deal specifically with the environment, the Bible makes it clear that the Lord gave stewardship of the earth to man. He told us that it is ours to use, but in giving us stewardship there is an implication that He expects us to use it wisely.

So I would say to those who don’t seem to care about how much they pollute or use, they should re-examine this mindset. Just because you can afford to buy a jet and use tons of fuel to get from one coast to the other, does not mean that you should. However, I am not sure that I want government dictating what size car I can drive or what my thermostat setting should be.

I have noticed that as people’s awareness of environmental issues has increased, it seems I see more evidence of concern and personal action. For instance I see many smaller cars (gas prices may have something to do with that) and those tote bags that you are supposed to use instead of plastic grocery sacks. More people are recycling and energy companies are building windfarms.

It seems to me that education and public awareness are a better strategy than having the government tell me I’m not allowed to buy incandescent light bulbs after 2012.

The other thing that government can do is encourage research into alternative sources of energy through tax credits and/or subsidies not only for companies to do research and development, but for consumers who buy things like solar power systems or hybrid or electric cars.

The one thing we must not do is buy into the near pagan earth worship of many in the environmental movement. These people seem to worship creation rather than the Creator.
 
Whatever the social teaching, I would say HOW you apply them is important. How much force do you use ? Do you let conscience and free will act on Church teachings? or do the social teachings come with a Heavy enforcement hand?

You ask what sorts of public policies you would like to see be enacted. That sounds like using the force of law.

We see the gov’t using tax structure, zoning regulations, endless laws and regulations to steer the size of families smaller, make a one income family almost impossible, and other choices individuals make. Will social teaching on the environment with the focus on carbon credits make it a law for one child – some people are talking extra taxes on a second child, and very high taxes on a third child because they harm our world. We see since FDR, social security and welfare, we have money taken from us, much which goes to running the system, and some goes to benefit the target people. Prior to those systems people, churches, and communities directly helped those in need , without part of it going to support a bloated system. The end result is some people think " I give enough in taxes, that poor person can go to gov’t programs for help " Rather than helping human to human directly.

On worker’s rights or environment, we have seen the laws on getting more rights help in the short term but in the long term end up costing jobs, which hurt the family. Would church teaching on the environment save the spotted owl and cost timber jobs which hurt kids ?

On each issue it REALLY depends on how the people in power want to enforce it, just look at how Catholics in charge Rep Nancy Pelosi and Sen John Kerry enact their understanding of the Catholic faith and social teachings.

With some charities going to gov’t to get tax money that is taken from people under the force of law, then is there free will ? The faith based groups have the structure of gov’t behind them.

So how would I apply the teachings ? by teaching and encouraging; But not by “enacting” .
Justin: we live in a republican democracy, one where people are free to remain or to go as they will, and to vote as they will for the candidates of their choice. Voting is an exercise of free will, and choosing to remain within the system even if your candidates do not win is an exercise of free will. The majority of citizens in the US have exercised their free will by voting for politicians over the years who will create systems of government aid. Your presence as a citizen who remains here signals that though you may disagree with your fellow-citizens, you consent to the system that the majority have freely chosen to construct through their elected representatives.

Government social programs have serious failings but they more are more effectively accessible to all citizens who need them for a given social problem. The failings of private charity are the lack of uniform availability as well as the tendency of voluntary support to wax and to wane. Local food pantries right now are simply giving less-and-less-and-less to more-and-more-and-more needy: as the economy goes down, fewer and fewer people are able to give less and less to sustain the pantries, while the need for those pantries increases.

Prior to the New Deal, we depended heavily on private charity–almost exclusively in fact–and people starved while farmers destroyed the wheat, eggs, milk, and produce that they could not sell at the prices they needed to sustain their livelihood. The New Deal did not end the Great Depression–there is good reason to believe that it sustained it by driving capital out of the markets and limiting needed growth through arbitrary bureaucratic rules–but it allowed us to soften the suffering of millions who would otherwise likely perished or been incredibly brutalized by poverty.

Federal welfare programs have their own problems: they tend to create long-term constituencies (not just the recipients of aid, but also the agency employees, who develop a vested interest in sustaining their own jobs). I’ve already pointed out how expensive they can be: the costs of such programs come from the pockets of people who are then limited in how those people can use their own earned resources for good. They can be bureaucratic, causing them to be inefficient in the way they utilize their funds.

Nonetheless, government aid programs give the needed hand-up to a lot of people who would otherwise be left behind. Our economy and our nation are stronger for the existence of federal aid programs, despite their failings. I do not believe we would be a world power in the modern global economy without them.

I don’t think we can get away from government systems of aid, but I think that our current systems leave a lot to be desired. I say again that my impression of the social teachings of the Catholic Church tend to do a good job of addressing both ends of the spectrum: those teachings say to laissez-faire capitalists and libertarian economic conservatives–you cannot design a just social order that takes no consideration of the weakest, most-unfortunate, and least-advantaged among yourselves.

Yet those same social teachings, it is my impression, would say to the socialists and communists–you cannot, in justice or morality, pursue confiscatory policies which deny people their basic rights to own property and productive means of living, in search of a dream of an earthly Utopia.

I think the Church is a critic of both ends of the spectrum, at least from what I have heard over the years. I’m hoping some folks who have actually read those social teachings in some depth and given some thought to how they should be applied will weigh in on this thread.
 
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