How would you deal with abuses that make a mockery out of Mass?

[Mrs_Sally]

Re-read this and tell me you do not see the ridiculousness in this. One of the reasons for Vatican II was to create more unity among Catholics, and now I’m supposed to leave my parish since 1988 because it’s “not [my] style”??? This is one of the greatest problems in the Church today. All these different NO Masses to suit each person’s “style” is abhorrently wrong and damaging. This is one of the reasons why we have rules and rubrics. So that each Mass is the same regardless of the priest or parish. Priest are not supposed to inflict themeselves onto the Mass to make it “their Mass.”

Trust me, what’s going on at my parish is nothing like that, and that was before Mass. I have attended several different Masses throughout Canada, and I have never witnessed anything like this before. This is disruptive to the point where it actually drags Mass out an extra 15+ minutes, despite the omitted Gloria (which is another abuse). I have no problem sitting through a 90-120+ minute Mass if it’s for a legitimate purpose, but not because the priest and deacon feel the need to be comedians.** I have prayed over it for several weeks, and it seems me I’m being told to do something about it**, which by the way, I do have the authority to do something about, as was already pointed out.

I think your answer is right there. In your shoes I would start by speaking to the pastor, then writing a letter outlining what happening in the meeting. If he thinks everything is peachy, go directly to the bishop. If he says things will change, follow up with him in a month or so, either to find out why things are exactly the same or to thank him for the improvements. I will be praying for you.

 

[TheMc]

They sound like they have a good sense of humor, as certainly does God. Good for you that you are being shepherded by joyous people, and get an extra 15 minutes in God’s presence as a bonus!

You really don’t get it, do you…

 

[TheMc]

Someone...:

But it sounds like your church is generally not your style and it may be time to find another which is more conservative and traditional in approach.

Re-read this and tell me you do not see the ridiculousness in this. One of the reasons for Vatican II was to create more unity among Catholics, and now I’m supposed to leave my parish since 1988 because it’s “not [my] style”??? This is one of the greatest problems in the Church today. All these different NO Masses to suit each person’s “style” is abhorrently wrong and damaging. This is one of the reasons why we have rules and rubrics. So that each Mass is the same regardless of the priest or parish. Priest are not supposed to inflict themeselves onto the Mass to make it “their Mass.”

I think the idea of “youth Masses”, “western Masses”, and other “stylized Masses” is crazy, but keep in mind that the trads and conservatives are the right ones. People may not like to hear that, but it’s true.

 

[jtodisco]

Just to reiterate (for emphasis) what someone has already stated, the appropriate course of action would be to:

1. Make an appointment with the priest and explain to him your concerns. Be sure to do this in a polite and honest way. Being aggressive will only shut down genuine communication. Also, be willing to listen to the priest’s explanation for why he is engaging in this behavior.
2. If the meeting doesn’t go anywhere and the priest is unwilling to fix his behavior, then you should either write to or schedule a meeting with the bishop. Either the letter or the meeting should err on the side of caution as regards the priest. Be charitable and do not make assumptions about the priest’s motives, etc. but be clear as to what is going on and why it is troubling you. Also, it would be polite to let the priest know you are going to meet with the bishop and perhaps even invite him to come to this meeting so that all the concerned parties may state their case.

From what you’ve said it sounds like the priest really does mean well and wants to connect with his parish and create a sense of fellowship among the parishioners. However, the manner in which the priest is going about doing this is inappropriate during the Mass. Jokes and games are perfectly fine outside of the Mass, but not during it.

 

[Stylites]

You really don’t get it, do you…

What’s there to get, except grace, which everyone can get who comes to Mass who is open to receive it, rather than to fume and fret and walk away with anger and frustration over nothing?

 

[TheMc]

What’s there to get, except grace, which everyone can get who comes to Mass who is open to receive it, rather than to fume and fret and walk away with anger and frustration over nothing?

You call a completely irreverent and casual liturgy nothing?!?!?!

Did you even read the original post?
I’m talking about the kind of abuses that make a mockery out of the Mass. Inappropriate conduct at Mass. For example, inviting a child up to the sanctuary steps for the congregation to mock his jersey, calling families by name who are wearing certain jerseys to stand up so we can acknowledge their team’s win, the deacon’s homily starting out as a tribute to the priest and his new glasses that actually starts out “All Hail the priest” and then afterwards, the entire congregation bursting out in laughter and applauding the deacon’s tribute, while the priest jokingly tells the deacon, “you’re fired,” etc.
Nope, you don’t get it.

 

[Stylites]

You call a completely irreverent and casual liturgy nothing?!?!?!

Sorry, friend, but I wasn’t there to witness it, and I don’t see where the OP states that it was “a completely irreverent and casual liturgy.” One person’s “mock” is another person’s light banter, so the descriptions and the contexts are rather subjective. Perhaps you were there, too, and can pass public judgment upon this unnamed and unknown priest (who is not here to defend himself against the charges of irreverence), and not be guilty of the sin of rash judgment. I’ll pass on rash judgment, thank you, and can only suggest to LD that he try to look at the great gulf between him and God rather than sit in judgment of the clergy, if he wants to be happy. Feel free to take this advice as well.

 

[Love_Divine]

What’s there to get, except grace, which everyone can get who comes to Mass who is open to receive it, rather than to fume and fret and walk away with anger and frustration over nothing?

In order to receive the graces from Mass, one must already be in a state of grace. Given that my priest rarely has scheduled Confession times, and has actually flat-out refused to hear my confession outside of a scheduled Confession time because it wasn’t an emergency, I think it’s reasonable to assume a good portion of people there aren’t able to receive said graces.

Sometimes when I’m at Mass it feels like this:

 

[Stylites]

In order to receive the graces from Mass, one must already be in a state of grace. Given that my priest rarely has scheduled Confession times, and has actually flat-out refused to hear my confession outside of a scheduled Confession time because it wasn’t an emergency, I think it’s reasonable to assume a good portion of people there aren’t able to receive said graces.

Sometimes when I’m at Mass it feels like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/38/Simpsons_Homer_vs_8th_Commandment.png

Asking what procedure there is to deal with serious liturgical abuses is one thing. Coming here to gripe about a Mass you didn’t like because of humor, or railing about your priest is another. Here’s what Jean Anthony wrote yesterday:

**Moratorium on Complaint Threads **

I will allow legitimate questions about procedures, etc., of course. But, no agenda driven threads will be allowed. And if you have a question, please don’t start out by saying how you hated some Mass you attended. Remember there are seekers and lurkers reading these posts. CAF exists to help people who have questions/concerns about the Catholic faith. It’s not a platform for griping.

 

[Love_Divine]

Sorry, friend, but I wasn’t there to witness it, and I don’t see where the OP states that it was “a completely irreverent and casual liturgy.” One person’s “mock” is another person’s light banter, so the descriptions and the contexts are rather subjective. Perhaps you were there, too, and can pass public judgment upon this unnamed and unknown priest (who is not here to defend himself against the charges of irreverence), and not be guilty of the sin of rash judgment. I’ll pass on rash judgment, thank you, and can only suggest to LD that he try to look at the great gulf between him and God rather than sit in judgment of the clergy, if he wants to be happy. Feel free to take this advice as well.

I’m not judging my priest. I’m calling a spade and spade, and calling him out on his irreverence and liturgical abuse. That’s not the same as judging him. He’s a pastor of souls. What he does can and does have a negative effect on the congregation. Irreverent Mass weakens the faith of Catholics.

Just because Vatican II came along doesn’t mean Hell disappeared. It still exists, and given the state of the world, and the apparitions at Fatima, we can only assume souls are going to Hell.

The vision of hell

Lucia later revealed that as she spoke these words, Mary opened her hands and rays of light from them seemed to penetrate the earth so that** they saw a terrifying vision of hell, full of demons and lost souls amidst indescribable horrors.**

This vision of hell was the first part of the “secret” of Fatima, and was not revealed until much later. The children looked up to the sad face of the Blessed Virgin, who spoke to them kindly:

"You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end; but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father.

…]

On August 19, Lucia, Francisco and Jacinta were assembled at a place called Valinhos, near Fatima, late in the afternoon, when they again saw Mary, who spoke to Lucia: “Go again to the Cova da Iria on the 13th and continue to say the Rosary every day.” Mary also said she would perform a miracle, so all would believe, and that if they had not been kidnapped it would have been even greater.

Looking very sad,** Mary then said: “Pray, pray very much, and make sacrifices for sinners; for many souls go to hell,** because there are none to sacrifice themselves and pray for them.” With that she rose into the air and moved towards the east before disappearing.

 

[Love_Divine]

Asking what procedure there is to deal with serious liturgical abuses is one thing. Coming here to gripe about a Mass you didn’t like because of humor, or railing about your priest is another. Here’s what Jean Anthony wrote yesterday:

This isn’t a single Mass. This is a re-occurring issue at a parish that has been going on for the past five years since he got put in our parish. I’ve been away for school, but since returning I can see the deterioration of my parish. Many people come here and complain about music, glass chalices, etc. I’m dealing with something much different.

 

[Stylites]

I’m not judging my priest. I’m calling a spade and spade, and calling him out on his irreverence and liturgical abuse. That’s not the same as judging him. He’s a pastor of souls. What he does can and does have a negative effect on the congregation. Irreverent Mass weakens the faith of Catholics.

Just because Vatican II came along doesn’t mean Hell disappeared. It still exists, and given the state of the world, and the apparitions at Fatima, we can only assume souls are going to Hell.

Is laughter really one of those “negative effects on the congregation”?

 

[Stylites]

This isn’t a single Mass. This is a re-occurring issue at a parish that has been going on for the past five years since he got put in our parish. I’ve been away for school, but since returning I can see the deterioration of my parish.

You can always vote with your feet. If you do so and discover that your next priest is humorless and gruff and cold and disconnected but you are otherwise happier then all is well.

 

[Love_Divine]

Is laughter really one of those “negative effects on the congregation”?

Yes!

Jokes at the end of Mass are not appropriate, Sydney Auxiliary Bishop Julian Porteous says.

Bishop Porteous told the Sydney Morning Herald that Mass was not the venue for the priest to indulge his own personality.

"A religious ceremony, for Catholics a Mass, is a sacred event, and therefore the whole context of celebration should be one that engenders respect, appreciation of the divine and a whole sense of reverence for holy things, that is always got to be the ground in which a priest approaches his duties.

“There has been a tendency for people to feel a joke at the end of the Mass is something to leave people with a smile, but I personally don’t think it is appropriate.”

Preserving the dignity of the occasion should be uppermost in the mind of a priest.

“There can be place for a comment which may be a truth or insight into the foibles of humanity, but jokes, if they are corny and self serving, are inappropriate,” Bishop Porteous said.

Bishop Porteous was agreeing with similar sentiments expressed by the Anglican Bishop of South Sydney, Robert Forsyth.

There is nothing funny in “lame fisted attempts” to crack jokes and be funny during services and church meetings, Bishop Forsth said. Humour has its place, but God and Church, he says, is no laughing matter.

But Howard Langmead, the Anglican minister of St John’s in West Brunswick, Melbourne, whose other job is as a stand up comedian, disagreed.

You can always vote with your feet. If you do so and discover that your next priest is humorless and gruff and cold and disconnected but you are otherwise happier then all is well.

It’s not just about me. I have friends and family members at that parish whose souls are being harmed by going to Mass there.

 

[NewsTheMan]

Exodus 18
And as Aaron made his way into the Holy of Holies to worship Almighty God - to give thanks, honour, praise and beg for mercy before the Lord of the Universe, the Almighty Himself… he made a quick joke to keep things lighthearted.



If you have any clue about what the Mass is, that Liturgy is Doctrine and why we go to Mass you’ll understand why these things are inappropriate. Laughter during Mass? Laughter at the foot of the Cross on Calvary? I don’t think so.

Laughter during Mass is a negative effect on the people. Just because it’s something that brings joy doesn’t make it a good thing, and just because some people need to laugh or they wouldn’t attend Mass doesn’t mean we should do it. Some people laugh when they hear vile jokes. Keep telling them huh? Some people laugh at blasphemies about our Lord. Hey, if it gives them a dose of Jesus guess it’s okay right? No. Time and place and context. The Mass is not a place for laughter, or for a Priest to display his comedic skills. Or for the people to get some laughs.

Laughter at Mass encourages the attitude that anything goes. It takes away from what is really going on. It makes people misunderstand the attitude and atmosphere that the Mass calls for. It is harmful.

Watch how the liberal Catholic turns it around and says “See those Traditionalists think God doesn’t have a sense of humour! See how they hate fun! See how they want us to suffer!”. Sounds a lot like the same people who advocate sexual sin.

Laughter is great, and especially from Priests who have great stories to tell and a lovely way of communicating truths. Laughing is awesome. At the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? NO.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

It’s not just about me. I have friends and family members at that parish whose souls are being harmed by going to Mass there.

Very well. Please take the advice given to speak to your pastor and let us know what the results were. I pray that your priests begin to conduct more reverant Masses and I pray with gratitude for my own priests who do!

 

[formerlysure]

Quote:
One of the reasons for Vatican II was to create more unity among Catholics, and now I’m supposed to leave my parish since 1988 because it’s “not [my] style”??? This is one of the greatest problems in the Church today. All these different NO Masses to suit each person’s “style” is abhorrently wrong and damaging. This is one of the reasons why we have rules and rubrics. So that each Mass is the same regardless of the priest or parish. Priest are not supposed to inflict themeselves onto the Mass to make it "their Mass."

You’re not “supposed” to leave your parish - none of us are here to try to tell you what you must do in this regard, only to provide feedback in response to your question - and the vast majority of us are doing so with the intention of helping.

The Vatican has not set forth that every mass must be identical - your understanding of Vatican II, I believe, is flawed in that regard. Standards are set, but there is no expectation that priests and congregations leave their personal experiences and tastes, and yes, their “style” at the door. There is no rule that one can only have harps or cannot have guitars or must only have a formal choir. There is no rule that a priest cannot include some humor and levity in his homily, or that he must instill fear in parishioners and take a fire and brimstone approach. I believe the Church as a whole has the wisdom to recognize that we must speak to people where and how they are - unifying Catholics around the world with the unchanging rituals, and tying those Catholics to those rituals with the more personalized aspects of a particular parish, priest and mass.

 

[TheMc]

Exodus 18
And as Aaron made his way into the Holy of Holies to worship Almighty God - to give thanks, honour, praise and beg for mercy before the Lord of the Universe, the Almighty Himself… he made a quick joke to keep things lighthearted.



If you have any clue about what the Mass is, that Liturgy is Doctrine and why we go to Mass you’ll understand why these things are inappropriate. Laughter during Mass? Laughter at the foot of the Cross on Calvary? I don’t think so.

Laughter during Mass is a negative effect on the people. Just because it’s something that brings joy doesn’t make it a good thing, and just because some people need to laugh or they wouldn’t attend Mass doesn’t mean we should do it. Some people laugh when they hear vile jokes. Keep telling them huh? Some people laugh at blasphemies about our Lord. Hey, if it gives them a dose of Jesus guess it’s okay right? No. Time and place and context. The Mass is not a place for laughter, or for a Priest to display his comedic skills. Or for the people to get some laughs.

Laughter at Mass encourages the attitude that anything goes. It takes away from what is really going on. It makes people misunderstand the attitude and atmosphere that the Mass calls for. It is harmful.

Watch how the liberal Catholic turns it around and says “See those Traditionalists think God doesn’t have a sense of humour! See how they hate fun! See how they want us to suffer!”. Sounds a lot like the same people who advocate sexual sin.

Laughter is great, and especially from Priests who have great stories to tell and a lovely way of communicating truths. Laughing is awesome. At the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? NO.

Wow. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

 

[Allegra]

I’m a little stuck on where to start with handling the issues with Mass at my parish. I’m not talking about the little things like changing the words here and there, glass sacred vessels, music. EMHC’s etc. Not things that can easily just be an unknown mistake that’s easily corrected or an annoyance.

I’m talking about the kind of abuses that make a mockery out of the Mass. Inappropriate conduct at Mass. For example, inviting a child up to the sanctuary steps for the congregation to mock his jersey, calling families by name who are wearing certain jerseys to stand up so we can acknowledge their team’s win, the deacon’s homily starting out as a tribute to the priest and his new glasses that actually starts out “All Hail the priest” and then afterwards, the entire congregation bursting out in laughter and applauding the deacon’s tribute, while the priest jokingly tells the deacon, “you’re fired,” etc.

I know you’re normally supposed to start out at the lowest level of authority starting with the priest, and work your way up, but I’ve only ever seen that advice given for minor things. Would I still start with the priest, or would I start with the bishop?

I’m quite bothered by these abuses and since we had a surprise visit by a well-known dissident former bishop (hint: Giant Puppet Mass) at one of our earlier Sunday Masses who told our priest after Mass that he was impressed with how we were “celebrating the Spirit of Vatican II” in our church, and our priest being quite proud of this, I’m worried it’s just going to keep getting worse.

If it helps at all, our bishop spent 7 years working at the Vatican before he was appointed to our diocese just over a year ago.

I don’t really see the "abuses’ in your story. Actuallly, the things you listed as “little things” all sound more important to me than the things that are actually bothing you. I’m assuming these jokes are part of the homily and not during the Eucharist. None of them sounded rude, crass, heretical, or in anyway inappropriate if they were meant to start off a homily. How are his homilies otherwise? Are they based on scripture and sacred Tradition? Do they relate to people’s personal lives and call them to be good Christians? If so, I wouldn’t worry if your priest is a little dorky about his sports teams. We’ve got one of those at our parish too. At first I didn’t like him, but he’s done some really great, insightful homilies since then and now I’m more tolerant of the obligatory slight toward the Cubs here and there. Now if the shenanigans continue into the Eucharistic portion of the Mass, then I’d say you’ve got a problem which needs to be brought to someone’s attention.

 

[formerlysure]

Laughing in the presence of God is not the same thing as laughing at Him. Christ is a joyful and celebrated presence in my life - a light, a source of life and hope and my eternal salvation. I fear only His absence from my heart and life, and rejoice in his presence. If I laugh and celebrate and forge friendships and sing in His house, it is because he is present and I am so, so grateful for Him.

I do not laugh or celebrate His suffering and sacrifice and doubt the parishioners around me in mass do, either. We are not making light of God -we are celebrating the light of God.

Please do not misunderstand - if I thought a joke about the Cubs during the homily was meant to make fun of God, I would certainly agree it to be inappropriate. Rather, I think it’s an honest and friendly effort by a priest to make a connection - and connection once made, to teach his congregant about God. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it and hope the church does not become so dark and somber and all-sorrowful that we forget how the story ends (so far) - with Jesus’ miraculous ascension and promise of our salvation.