How would you define Catholic education

[1inICXC]

How would you define Catholic education, practically?

Considering, we as parents, have the primordial duty to educate our children, how do we reconcile this with school systems that get the better part of our childrens’ day? What kind of curriculum or classroom principles should we look for in order to ensure that the education received at school is indeed an extension of that received at home?

Personally, I see two fundamental changes that should be implemented in order to even make sound moral and spiritual education possible. One: small class size, how can you give a child the attention and time he deserves/ needs if there are 20 others tugging at the same person? 2. Grouping children by needs and aptitudes rather than by age, with appropriate adaptations for boys and girls.

Theoretically speaking, both of those are rather impossible to find, so it feels like a lost battle from the get-go. But let’s say those were achievable, what would the curriculum/principles of the classroom need to look like from a practical sense?

Your answer can be as Utopian as you would like it to be. I think homeschoolers could weigh in a lot as to what they would want / need in a school environment to make them feel comfortable enough to trade in homeschooling for standard schooling

To sum it up, I think I;m asking, what is the practical application of CCC 2222-2224.

Thanks in advance for your replies!

 

[jmjconder]

**The “Domestic Church” (CCC 1655+) is the central place of any Catholic teaching.

The answer to your question on CCC 2221+ is:

Prayer in the home.**

 

[Corki]

How would you define Catholic education, practically?

Considering, we as parents, have the primordial duty to educate our children, how do we reconcile this with school systems that get the better part of our childrens’ day?

Well, as a parent who has had kids in several schools, it is often the case of “you will know it when you see it.”

What kind of curriculum or classroom principles should we look for in order to ensure that the education received at school is indeed an extension of that received at home?

Curriculum only goes so far. Of course you want to see a solid Religion series being used and teachers who are well educated in the faith but a good program won’t redeem a lukeward school. Catholicity, for want of a better term, should be woven through the curriculum rather than delegated to a single class period. Classroom principle should include regular times for prayer, Catholic imagry, a classroom discipline policy that is centered on respect and being good Christians to each other. A linkage to the Corporal and Spiritual works of mercy and regular participation in the public life of the Church - Mass, Confessions, Rosary, LOTH or other daily prayers, Scripture, traditional Catholic observances (May Crowning, St Joseph’s feast, lenten sacrifices, Advent before Christmas, etc.)

Personally, I see two fundamental changes that should be implemented in order to even make sound moral and spiritual education possible. One: small class size, how can you give a child the attention and time he deserves/ needs if there are 20 others tugging at the same person?

I disagree. When we were younger, the class size was bigger (my 8th grade graduated 38) but we got much more “Catholic” out of our education and a higher level of academics than even very good schools offer today. Small class size works against developing humility, reception of learning, independance and sacrificing that are virtues that must be learned before Math, Science or Literature. Education shouldn’t be about time and attention but about teaching children how to learn. Small class size often leads to children being very dependent on constant feedback and reinforcement in order to learn instead of learning to be pro-active and to seek out knowledge.

Small class size also dramtically increases costs making a Catholic education out of reach for even more families than now.

1. Grouping children by needs and aptitudes rather than by age, with appropriate adaptations for boys and girls.

I’m not opposed to ability grouping but there’s nothing inherently Catholic about it.

 

[mountee]

Very interesting topic, I would like to chime in,but I think this is a more personal point of view. I am 61 and went to Catholic grade school, high school and college. In the last couple of weeks on CAF I have seem some things regarding the Church that I have never seen or heard before. What does that mean? I should tell you that I attended 3 different elementary schools in 2 different states and 2 high schools in 2 different states. I consider myself a good Catholic and hope I always will be, but compared to many who quote the Magesterium, the CCC and other official Church rules and regulations, I have a lot to learn. I honestly can not figure out how I missed out on so much during all of those years in Catholic schools in different places taught by different orders of nuns and priests. So, when you want to find out if the school is really being an extension of your Catholic home you have a lot of investigative work to do. You will no doubt have a considerable amount of re-teaching and extending to do at home no matter where your children go to school.
I have a question I would like you to consider, what about the non-Catholic teachers who will also be in the building, does that matter to you? I have taught in my children’s Catholic school several years ago, great people worked in that school but they were all practising Catholics. Today’s Catholic schools often hire non-Catholic teachers who are wonderful people, great teachers and yet non-Catholic. I would like to add that saying you are Catholic but not following the Churches teachings would also describe some of the teachers you would find in a Catholc school. I have a friend from my Catholic high school who is a beloved teacher at a large, Catholic elementary school. She and her husband went to a Catholic university but along the way lost all faith in the Church and no longer have anything to do with it. They believe in a woman’s right to choice, they believe in contraception, they hold values which would be in complete contradiction to what you might want your child to be exposed to. Would that bother you if she taught your child, you have to consider that this could happen. So, I have to say that this will be a very hands-on project for you, you will need to read materials, interview the principal and teachers and even other parents and eventually make a decision, and even then you won’t be done because you are right, the home is the pimary educator. May the Holy Spirit lead you through this process to a choice that will be pleasing to God.

 

[Baelor]

Small class size works against developing humility, reception of learning, independance and sacrificing that are virtues that must be learned before Math, Science or Literature.

That is not been at all my experience – small class sizes for me encouraged greater independence of thought and an ability for the teacher to work closely with the material and the students, something impossible with a thirty-person class. The students can guide their own learning and engage with the material at a closer level than a lecture would provide. You are essentially creating the lecture yourself. What could be better for comprehension and independence?

Education shouldn’t be about time and attention but about teaching children how to learn. Small class size often leads to children being very dependent on constant feedback and reinforcement in order to learn instead of learning to be pro-active and to seek out knowledge.

That is not at all the case. My high school offered only small classes and all of the students go on to university, many doing better at even elite colleges than they did in high school due to my HS’s grade deflation.

 

[Corki]

That is not been at all my experience – small class sizes for me encouraged greater independence of thought and an ability for the teacher to work closely with the material and the students, something impossible with a thirty-person class. The students can guide their own learning and engage with the material at a closer level than a lecture would provide. You are essentially creating the lecture yourself. What could be better for comprehension and independence?

That’s a false dichotomy. Large class size does not mean that the teaching is primarily lecture. Large class size **does **mean that some of the modern child-centered teaching methods won’t work. (of course, many of those methods don’t work anyway )

That is not at all the case. My high school offered only small classes and all of the students go on to university, many doing better at even elite colleges than they did in high school due to my HS’s grade deflation.

But are they doing better because of the small class size or because of the university environment? My own kids went from a K-8 with very small classes to a high school with much larger classes. They are doing much better in the large class environment. Not only in terms of grades but in terms of what they bring home and how the class material sparks thier outside interests.

This is getting a little off topic, I think. How does small class size make the education process more Catholic?

 

[dconklin]

I am on the religious education staff of a large parish in the South. This definition is not an easy one. I think it is important to look at the consideration that parents are the primary catechists. While they all made this promise, few parents are living up to this. Reality is many Catholic families do not practice their faith. They do not go to Mass, let alone bring their kids in for religious ed. Many of those that do leave the educating up to Church. Here in the South there are very few Catholic schools.

With all of that said, there is hope out there for what the OP is looking for. Beside our traditional “CCD” curriculum, we offer the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd as an alternative. Only about 20% of our students are able to participate in this, but for those that do, they receive a wonderful Catholic education. It seems the kids that go through this program are the best Altar Servers. No vocations to the religious life yet.

 

[Baelor]

That’s a false dichotomy. Large class size does not mean that the teaching is primarily lecture.

I can only speak from my experience – when thirty students were in a class, there was less time available for each student. I think we can agree on that. In my experience, either a typical small classroom model is adopted and diluted, or methods that permit all students to be reached at once (e.g. a lecture) are adopted.

So, my experience – which I noted as such – when generalized, can create a false dichotomy.

I am also surprised that you would point that out to me after you claimed that small classes are universally bad with no justification.

Large class size **does **mean that some of the modern child-centered teaching methods won’t work. (of course, many of those methods don’t work anyway )

Many of them do, however. My high school was by far the best in my state, and that was due to the class structure.

But are they doing better because of the small class size or because of the university environment?

The university environment is inseparable from the class structure, since the latter reflects the former. That is, I was exposed to the seminar model that is present in almost all my university courses in ninth grade. I also do well in lectures because the course structure at my high school taught me how to think. It did not, as you claimed, deprive me of humility or independence; it bolstered them.

My own kids went from a K-8 with very small classes to a high school with much larger classes. They are doing much better in the large class environment. Not only in terms of grades but in terms of what they bring home and how the class material sparks thier outside interests.

I am happy for your children.

This is getting a little off topic, I think. How does small class size make the education process more Catholic?

If it provides a stronger academic environment, then it is certainly of interest to Catholic parents. Some students may thrive more in a large-class environment, and that is equally fine.

The question as phrased by the OP does not actually address the role of Catholicism in education.

 

[Corki]

I can only speak from my experience – when thirty students were in a class, there was less time available for each student. I think we can agree on that. In my experience, either a typical small classroom model is adopted and diluted, or methods that permit all students to be reached at once (e.g. a lecture) are adopted.

So, my experience – which I noted as such – when generalized, can create a false dichotomy.

The false dichotomy is to set up small classroom model learning and lecture as the only two options. There are lots of other ways to teach that work well in groups of different sizes. In my grade school years, there was an emphais on group work and on independant (self-paced) learning. And with today’s technology, multi-media teaching methods work quite well with large groups as do computer based delivery methods.

I am also surprised that you would point that out to me after you claimed that small classes are universally bad with no justification.

I NEVER said small classrooms were bad, let alone universally bad. I simply stated that large class groups lend themselves more naturally to some Catholic concepts.

Many of them do, however. My high school was by far the best in my state, and that was due to the class structure.

And I never said otherwise.

The university environment is inseparable from the class structure, since the latter reflects the former. That is, I was exposed to the seminar model that is present in almost all my university courses in ninth grade.

Yes, my kids had exposure to that too. Not all universities, even the elite ones center around the seminar model but it is a wonderful learning experience.

I also do well in lectures because the course structure at my high school taught me how to think. It did not, as you claimed, deprive me of humility or independence; it bolstered them.

Again, I never said anyone was deprived, nor did I say that these are not present in small classes. I said that large class groups give students some natural opportunities to develop those virtues. With the former, it’s related to that level of personal attention. With the latter, large groups often (not always) offer more opportunities for independant learning. Child directed rather than child centered.

The question as phrased by the OP does not actually address the role of Catholicism in education

Then I misunderstood the OP entirely. I thought he/she wanted to discuss Catholic education.

 

[Baelor]

The false dichotomy is to set up small classroom model learning and lecture as the only two options. There are lots of other ways to teach that work well in groups of different sizes. In my grade school years, there was an emphais on group work and on independant (self-paced) learning. And with today’s technology, multi-media teaching methods work quite well with large groups as do computer based delivery methods.

Those all still fit into larger categories.

I NEVER said small classrooms were bad, let alone universally bad. I simply stated that large class groups lend themselves more naturally to some Catholic concepts.

You actually did:

Corki:

Small class size works against developing humility, reception of learning, independance and sacrificing that are virtues that must be learned before Math, Science or Literature

You stated outright that small class sizes inherently work against further learning. That to me is “bad.” If you disagree, then you are welcome to correct my statement further.

You still have not actually explained in what way small class sizes necessarily do any of those things, or how lectures inherently bolster any of the nebulous virtues of education.

Again, I never said anyone was deprived, nor did I say that these are not present in small classes. I said that large class groups give students some natural opportunities to develop those virtues.

Please be honest about your statements:

Corki:

Small class size works against developing humility, reception of learning, independance and sacrificing that are virtues that must be learned before Math, Science or Literature

You also have not actually explained how small class sizes naturally deprive students of skills acquired in a large classroom. Do you believe that small classes offer any natural advantages whatsoever?

With the former, it’s related to that level of personal attention.

That level of personal attention is guaranteed in a small course. We must compare like things – assume a well-taught large class; assume a well-taught small class.

With the latter, large groups often (not always) offer more opportunities for independant learning. Child directed rather than child centered.

I do not understand how being in a small class prevents independent learning. Could you elaborate?

Then I misunderstood the OP entirely. I thought he/she wanted to discuss Catholic education.

The OP stated that he was interested in Catholic education “practically.” I was surprised too.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

How would you define Catholic education, practically?

Considering, we as parents, have the primordial duty to educate our children, how do we reconcile this with school systems that get the better part of our childrens’ day? What kind of curriculum or classroom principles should we look for in order to ensure that the education received at school is indeed an extension of that received at home?

Personally, I see two fundamental changes that should be implemented in order to even make sound moral and spiritual education possible. One: small class size, how can you give a child the attention and time he deserves/ needs if there are 20 others tugging at the same person? 2. Grouping children by needs and aptitudes rather than by age, with appropriate adaptations for boys and girls.

Theoretically speaking, both of those are rather impossible to find, so it feels like a lost battle from the get-go. But let’s say those were achievable, what would the curriculum/principles of the classroom need to look like from a practical sense?

Your answer can be as Utopian as you would like it to be. I think homeschoolers could weigh in a lot as to what they would want / need in a school environment to make them feel comfortable enough to trade in homeschooling for standard schooling

To sum it up, I think I;m asking, what is the practical application of CCC 2222-2224.

Thanks in advance for your replies!

I would never prefer to trade in homeschooling for standard schooling, because I do think that there is not a way to create a perfect school, as long as school hours result in families being fragmented for the better part of their waking hours. To entice me over, the system would have to be drastically different. But since you invited utopia, I’ll go for it. In my perfect imaginary world, homeschooling is the norm. When it is the norm, most of the people who say “I could never do that” turn out to be able to do it, because of the cultural support provided to them. That doesn’t mean there would be no place for institutional education, but in my little fantasy, it doesn’t look like today’s schools. My dream would be to have Catholic schools that cooperated with homeschoolers to provide a well rounded education according to the judgment of the parents. My children would attend a school 3 mornings per week, even in high school. At that school, they would go to weekday Mass, pray as a community, participate in chorus, gym/sports, and art. And there would be other elective types of classes - like a foreign language club in which the children could speak French together, or tutoring for kids who need more help in a particular area than their parents can give them. But the bulk of their academic work would still be done at home.

 

[St_Francis]

WRT the small class vs large class thing: Just looking at results, it seems that this is a very small component in education. Decades ago, Catholic schools had class sizes of up to 50, and children in them often learned more than they are required to do now.

The thing about small class vs large class in our society is that 1. it is easily quantified, and 2. it gets more money.

It is very easy to say, the average class size in this school is 16; it is very hard to say, the majority of our students are very virtuous, or the majority of our students are continually challenged.

Additionally, decades ago education was more of a privilege without which you would always be a poor ditch-digger. Parents and children *wanted *the education, and they worked hard for it. Now education is a “right,” parents are not supportive of the school’s endeavors (some of which are certainly not worthy of support!) and children are not well-educated, *even tho the class sizes are continually going down. *

When the attitude was education is what is offered here and you can get it if you work for it, if you strive after it, children learned. When there were spelling bees and other competitions, children *worked *at getting their education. Now it seems like the attitude of a lot of children is that the teachers have to do what is necessary to get the students to learn something.

So I would say that class sizes are, in reality, almost completely irrelevant. Children have learned in huge classes, children have “not-learned” in small classes. But the reverse is also the case.

 

[1inICXC]

I would never prefer to trade in homeschooling for standard schooling, because I do think that there is not a way to create a perfect school, as long as school hours result in families being fragmented for the better part of their waking hours. To entice me over, the system would have to be drastically different. But since you invited utopia, I’ll go for it. In my perfect imaginary world, homeschooling is the norm. When it is the norm, most of the people who say “I could never do that” turn out to be able to do it, because of the cultural support provided to them. That doesn’t mean there would be no place for institutional education, but in my little fantasy, it doesn’t look like today’s schools. My dream would be to have Catholic schools that cooperated with homeschoolers to provide a well rounded education according to the judgment of the parents. My children would attend a school 3 mornings per week, even in high school. At that school, they would go to weekday Mass, pray as a community, participate in chorus, gym/sports, and art. And there would be other elective types of classes - like a foreign language club in which the children could speak French together, or tutoring for kids who need more help in a particular area than their parents can give them. But the bulk of their academic work would still be done at home.

This is exactly what I was looking for.

Thank you for all the replies. I should’ve mentioned I am thinking more in line with the early years. I firmly believe that if the first 7-10 years of life the child receives a solid education you have covered all the essentials. Of course, teen years can be whacky but if you already have the blocks in place, the support, the strategies you just steer through those more easily.

What my main worries are is the (de)formation that occurs in the early years. Having 3 year old exposed to lady Gaga, monster and witch stories along with occultish magic and white magic, violence (be it verbal or physical), indifference, pressure to be like everyone etc are just some of the fundamental thins that I believe are hard to undo and undermine a true Christian education.

I believe in an education that will help them look for the true, the good and the beautiful, not merely teach them to count, to read and to know the ways of the world.

I would love a system that will focus on the great dignity of each life, its final destination and equipping the child to reach it.

I came across a 3-6 yr old centre where they had the tree of virtues, the Little Prince planets, the way of the beatitudes, all so wonderfully and attractively done. So it really got me dreaming

 

[jacquel]

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[EasterJoy]

TITLE III.

CATHOLIC EDUCATION (Cann. 793 - 821)

Can. 793 §1. Parents and those who take their place are bound by the obligation and possess the right of educating their offspring. Catholic parents also have the duty and right of choosing those means and institutions through which they can provide more suitably for the Catholic education of their children, according to local circumstances.

§2. Parents also have the right to that assistance, to be furnished by civil society, which they need to secure the Catholic education of their children.

Can. 794 §1. The duty and right of educating belongs in a special way to the Church, to which has been divinely entrusted the mission of assisting persons so that they are able to reach the fullness of the Christian life.

§2. Pastors of souls have the duty of arranging everything so that all the faithful have a Catholic education.

Can. 795 Since true education must strive for complete formation of the human person that looks to his or her final end as well as to the common good of societies, children and youth are to be nurtured in such a way that they are able to develop their physical, moral, and intellectual talents harmoniously, acquire a more perfect sense of responsibility and right use of freedom, and are formed to participate actively in social life.

CHAPTER I.

SCHOOLS

Can. 796 §1. Among the means to foster education, the Christian faithful are to hold schools in esteem; schools are the principal assistance to parents in fulfilling the function of education.

§2. Parents must cooperate closely with the teachers of the schools to which they entrust their children to be educated; moreover, teachers in fulfilling their duty are to collaborate very closely with parents, who are to be heard willingly and for whom associations or meetings are to be established and highly esteemed.

Can. 797 Parents must possess a true freedom in choosing schools; therefore, the Christian faithful must be concerned that civil society recognizes this freedom for parents and even supports it with subsidies; distributive justice is to be observed.

Can. 798 Parents are to entrust their children to those schools which provide a Catholic education. If they are unable to do this, they are obliged to take care that suitable Catholic education is provided for their children outside the schools.

Can. 799 The Christian faithful are to strive so that in civil society the laws which regulate the formation of youth also provide for their religious and moral education in the schools themselves, according to the conscience of the parents.

Can. 800 §1. The Church has the right to establish and direct schools of any discipline, type, and level.

§2. The Christian faithful are to foster Catholic schools, assisting in their establishment and maintenance according to their means.

Can. 801 Religious institutes whose proper mission is education, retaining their mission faithfully, are also to strive to devote themselves to Catholic education through their schools, established with the consent of the diocesan bishop.

Can. 802 §1. If schools which offer an education imbued with a Christian spirit are not available, it is for the diocesan bishop to take care that they are established.

§2. Where it is expedient, the diocesan bishop is to make provision for the establishment of professional schools, technical schools, and other schools required by special needs.

Can. 803 §1. A Catholic school is understood as one which a competent ecclesiastical authority or a public ecclesiastical juridic person directs or which ecclesiastical authority recognizes as such through a written document.

§2. The instruction and education in a Catholic school must be grounded in the principles of Catholic doctrine; teachers are to be outstanding in correct doctrine and integrity of life.

§3. Even if it is in fact Catholic, no school is to bear the name Catholic school without the consent of competent ecclesiastical authority.

Can. 804 §1. The Catholic religious instruction and education which are imparted in any schools whatsoever or are provided through the various instruments of social communication are subject to the authority of the Church. It is for the conference of bishops to issue general norms about this field of action and for the diocesan bishop to regulate and watch over it.

§2. The local ordinary is to be concerned that those who are designated teachers of religious instruction in schools, even in non-Catholic ones, are outstanding in correct doctrine, the witness of a Christian life, and teaching skill.

Can. 805 For his own diocese, the local ordinary has the right to appoint or approve teachers of religion and even to remove them or demand that they be removed if a reason of religion or morals requires it.

Can. 806 §1. The diocesan bishop has the right to watch over and visit the Catholic schools in his territory, even those which members of religious institutes have founded or direct. He also issues prescripts which pertain to the general regulation of Catholic schools; these prescripts are valid also for schools which these religious direct, without prejudice, however, to their autonomy regarding the internal direction of their schools.

§2. Directors of Catholic schools are to take care under the watchfulness of the local ordinary that the instruction which is given in them is at least as academically distinguished as that in the other schools of the area.

ET CETERA…it’s in there