How would you discern whether an Order is orthodox?

[KindredSoul]

The title says it, basically. What would you do, exactly, to ensure that a religious order is faithful to the Pope and Magisterium, and to Sacred Tradition?

The problem is, I imagine it’s hard to get a straight answer if you ask them in “Yes or no” fashion, since it seems some heterodox people are quite unwilling to admit that they aren’t being faithful to the Church. They tend to play with Semantics, and will claim to be faithful to the Pope, Magisterium, etc., by twisting the word; because deep down they know that “Yes” is the only acceptable Catholic answer to that question, it seems some will give that answer even if it means using a very strange meaning of what it means to be “faithful.”

So what do you do? Must a person spend months with an Order and hope the right topics or issues come up to show whether or not they are Orthodox? How long, though, is long enough to feel sure that the Order isn’t going to “surprise” you down the road with something that just never came up?

Or perhaps one should write a long list of concerns to ask one of the representatives of the Order? It seems it’d take quite a long time to write down every possible concern, though…

Do you rely on the reputation? But what of newer Orders or Orders about which you simply cannot find a lot of information (good or bad) outside of what they themselves say?

Maybe it’s some combination…or maybe, when all is said and done, you should just dive right in. I’m sure that, before taking Solemn Vows, you’d know (since in the Orders I’ve looked at, that takes a couple of years). However, my point is that I’m wondering if there’s some way to find this out, with reasonable security, before then. It’d be a shame to spend a couple of years with a place then somehow find out something heterodox about them you’d never realized.

In a worst case scenario, if one took Solemn vows and only then found that the Order was heterodox in some way (big or “small”), what can one do? Is trying to reform the Order the only option, then?

I think these are questions all of us considering Religious Life have thought of at some point. I pray that those with experience and wisdom will share with us. Thank you!

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

The title says it, basically. What would you do, exactly, to ensure that a religious order is faithful to the Pope and Magisterium, and to Sacred Tradition?

The problem is, I imagine it’s hard to get a straight answer if you ask them in “Yes or no” fashion, since it seems some heterodox people are quite unwilling to admit that they aren’t being faithful to the Church. They tend to play with Semantics, and will claim to be faithful to the Pope, Magisterium, etc., by twisting the word; because deep down they know that “Yes” is the only acceptable Catholic answer to that question, it seems some will give that answer even if it means using a very strange meaning of what it means to be “faithful.”

So what do you do? Must a person spend months with an Order and hope the right topics or issues come up to show whether or not they are Orthodox? How long, though, is long enough to feel sure that the Order isn’t going to “surprise” you down the road with something that just never came up?

Or perhaps one should write a long list of concerns to ask one of the representatives of the Order? It seems it’d take quite a long time to write down every possible concern, though…

Do you rely on the reputation? But what of newer Orders or Orders about which you simply cannot find a lot of information (good or bad) outside of what they themselves say?

Maybe it’s some combination…or maybe, when all is said and done, you should just dive right in. I’m sure that, before taking Solemn Vows, you’d know (since in the Orders I’ve looked at, that takes a couple of years). However, my point is that I’m wondering if there’s some way to find this out, with reasonable security, before then. It’d be a shame to spend a couple of years with a place then somehow find out something heterodox about them you’d never realized.

In a worst case scenario, if one took Solemn vows and only then found that the Order was heterodox in some way (big or “small”), what can one do? Is trying to reform the Order the only option, then?

I think these are questions all of us considering Religious Life have thought of at some point. I pray that those with experience and wisdom will share with us. Thank you!

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul

You bring up a very good point. I have been discerning religious life for a year now, and I have come across several beautiful religious orders. My goal is to find one that suits me and my personality while remaining faith to the Magisterium of the Church.

Several months back, I contacted a Carmelite order, asking for more information and to see if I could visit them. They were the first website of Carmelite sisters I visited and I always found myself going back to it. Their pictures are absolutely beautiful and their practices are too. When I got back a response, they were asking me if I recited the Roman Breviary and if I attended the Tridentine Mass. Both of these things I am unfamiliar with and I told them so, but also that I was willing to learn. I did, however, tell them about my history of depression (that is resolved) because I wanted to be completely honest with them. About a week later I got an email back stating that they were not able to accept me (I wasn’t asking for entrance, either) because having a history of depression is not suitable for religious life in Carmel. It was very hard to take because I felt like I had said something wrong or that I wasn’t called to religious life. But I realized, these people had never met me and did not know that I am all better. Did not St. Teresa of Avila say, “We find that those who beared the greatest of trials walked closest with God.”?? She suffered with illness too, so did John of the Cross. I thought this was rather strange. Also, I saw that their website did not mention whether or not they belonged to the OCD order or the O.Carm. order. I couldn’t find it in their titles either when they wrote the newsletters. They mention St. Teresa of Avila, but not how they relate to her. It just says:

Continued training and formation in the spiritual life and Holy Rule of St. Teresa of Avila

All orders that I have seen mention her as Mother (OCD) or Carmelite Reformer (O.Carm.) So this was peculiar.

Well, after forgetting this order and moving on with my discernment, I was chatting with someone about Carmel orders. She mentioned an order in the area of that monastery and I asked her if it was them. She said yes. I told her about what happened and she said that they are a renegade order. I did not know what that meant, but it didn’t sound good. She explained it further as the order of priests and seminarians who started the Carmel order and who offer Mass for them did not adhere to the diocesan Bishop’s discipline. They did not ask for permission, either, to start their orders. Neither of them are in full communion with Rome. She checked again that day with the Bishop to see if their status had changed, and it hadn’t. So, imagine my surprise when I found this out. I call it a blessing in disguise and I thank the Lord for protecting me from a renegade order.

So, my advice to you is, keep your eyes and ears open. When you have an interest in a specific community but you are not sure if they are in line with the Church, call the diocese. They usually know. This way, the order doesn’t know about your doubts, and if they are ok, then you are free to progress. Hope this helped! God bless you!

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Undoubtedly one needs to spend some time with a community before one really gets to know it…but I dont think normally it takes years. But even so, one is very free to leave for the first three years (postulancy and noviciate if postulancy is one year). Temporary vows is a bit more of a serious step. Once one has actually made perpetual vows for life, one is commiting oneself to The Lord for a lifetime in that community/Order.

I sometimes do feel sorry for those who entered religious life pre V2 and made life vows when there were lots of vocations and Orders were thriving abundantly. There was a tremendous aura of stability about religious life. Then some years down the track further the whole scenario underwent dramatic, quite sudden and unexpected changes. Those who stayed must have been actutely aware of Divine Providence and God’s Will as transcending all things, I think, and prepared to trust confidently in that and in their life vows, come what may.

Nowadays applicants do seem to want a whole almost list of things they want and need in religious life - whereas (LOL here!) once it was the religious order that gave the prospective postulant of what SHE would need to bring into religious life. Of course, there is absolutely no guarantee that the community and Order as they entered it and vowed themselves within it will remain in that stable condition. Perpetual vows are a very serious matter indeed and all religious orders I think ensure candidates are well informed and very sure about what they are doing and the potential implications of life vows. One is not vowing onself to a certain lifestyle, habit etc. etc. as to The Lord…and perhaps it was those who did enter pre V2 and then later underwent the huge changes and tremendous instability of religious life post V2 who have experiential knowledge that it can indeed be “a terrible thing to fall into the Hands of the Living God.”

Paul to Hebrews, Chapter 10
*

31

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But call to mind the former days, wherein, being illuminated, you endured a great fight of afflictions. 33 And on the one hand indeed, by reproaches and tribulations, were made a gazingstock; and on the other, became companions of them that were used in such sort. 34 For you both had compassion on them that were in bands, and took with joy the being stripped of your own goods, knowing that you have a better and a lasting substance. 35 Do not therefore lose your confidence, which hath a great reward. *

Barb

 

[KindredSoul]

You bring up a very good point. I have been discerning religious life for a year now, and I have come across several beautiful religious orders. My goal is to find one that suits me and my personality while remaining faith to the Magisterium of the Church.

Several months back, I contacted a Carmelite order, asking for more information and to see if I could visit them. They were the first website of Carmelite sisters I visited and I always found myself going back to it. Their pictures are absolutely beautiful and their practices are too. When I got back a response, they were asking me if I recited the Roman Breviary and if I attended the Tridentine Mass. Both of these things I am unfamiliar with and I told them so, but also that I was willing to learn. I did, however, tell them about my history of depression (that is resolved) because I wanted to be completely honest with them. About a week later I got an email back stating that they were not able to accept me (I wasn’t asking for entrance, either) because having a history of depression is not suitable for religious life in Carmel. It was very hard to take because I felt like I had said something wrong or that I wasn’t called to religious life. But I realized, these people had never met me and did not know that I am all better. Did not St. Teresa of Avila say, “We find that those who beared the greatest of trials walked closest with God.”?? She suffered with illness too, so did John of the Cross. I thought this was rather strange. Also, I saw that their website did not mention whether or not they belonged to the OCD order or the O.Carm. order. I couldn’t find it in their titles either when they wrote the newsletters. They mention St. Teresa of Avila, but not how they relate to her. It just says:

All orders that I have seen mention her as Mother (OCD) or Carmelite Reformer (O.Carm.) So this was peculiar.

Well, after forgetting this order and moving on with my discernment, I was chatting with someone about Carmel orders. She mentioned an order in the area of that monastery and I asked her if it was them. She said yes. I told her about what happened and she said that they are a renegade order. I did not know what that meant, but it didn’t sound good. She explained it further as the order of priests and seminarians who started the Carmel order and who offer Mass for them did not adhere to the diocesan Bishop’s discipline. They did not ask for permission, either, to start their orders. Neither of them are in full communion with Rome. She checked again that day with the Bishop to see if their status had changed, and it hadn’t. So, imagine my surprise when I found this out. I call it a blessing in disguise and I thank the Lord for protecting me from a renegade order.

So, my advice to you is, keep your eyes and ears open. When you have an interest in a specific community but you are not sure if they are in line with the Church, call the diocese. They usually know. This way, the order doesn’t know about your doubts, and if they are ok, then you are free to progress. Hope this helped! God bless you!

Thanks!

Your story is very reassuring…there is always hope, then, that God will deliver us from situations that are, unknown to us, heterodox or renegade. I will let this give me a sense of security about the situation. Also, I do think it’s great advice to contact the Diocese!

Undoubtedly one needs to spend some time with a community before one really gets to know it…but I dont think normally it takes years. But even so, one is very free to leave for the first three years (postulancy and noviciate if postulancy is one year). Temporary vows is a bit more of a serious step. Once one has actually made perpetual vows for life, one is commiting oneself to The Lord for a lifetime in that community/Order.

I sometimes do feel sorry for those who entered religious life pre V2 and made life vows when there were lots of vocations and Orders were thriving abundantly. There was a tremendous aura of stability about religious life. Then some years down the track further the whole scenario underwent dramatic, quite sudden and unexpected changes. Those who stayed must have been actutely aware of Divine Providence and God’s Will as transcending all things, I think, and prepared to trust confidently in that and in their life vows, come what may.

Nowadays applicants do seem to want a whole almost list of things they want and need in religious life - whereas (LOL here!) once it was the religious order that gave the prospective postulant of what SHE would need to bring into religious life. Of course, there is absolutely no guarantee that the community and Order as they entered it and vowed themselves within it will remain in that stable condition. Perpetual vows are a very serious matter indeed and all religious orders I think ensure candidates are well informed and very sure about what they are doing and the potential implications of life vows. One is not vowing onself to a certain lifestyle, habit etc. etc. as to The Lord…and perhaps it was those who did enter pre V2 and then later underwent the huge changes and tremendous instability of religious life post V2 who have experiential knowledge that it can indeed be “a terrible thing to fall into the Hands of the Living God.”

Paul to Hebrews, Chapter 10
**

Barb

This is great food for thought as well…a solemn vow is binding regardless of what happens down the road, but like many of the saints, it doesn’t mean a person vowed to an Order that goes downhill (or was always heterodox and he or she didn’t discover it in time) can’t remain Faithful to the Church and Magisterium by resisting the heterodox elements while still being faithful to his vows. That, too, is reassuring. Thank you

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Just one point on the supposition that one was professed for life into a community and they started to dramatically change in some adverse way. It is possible, I know, to transfer from one religious order to another, although this is never ever lightly done and an application to transfer is well looked into first. I am not too sure of the procedure, but it may be necessary for some to apply through Rome, others to apply to their diocesan Bishop. It may be possible to simply transfer through the superior of an Order. As I said I am not too sure of the procedure, but that it can be done. I know personally of one Carmelite nun who transferred into Carmel from another religious order.
I know of another religious sister who was a superior in the Order who left in the post V2 confusions in religious life, and was consecrated as a canonical virgin.

Barb

 

[KindredSoul]

Just one point on the supposition that one was professed for life into a community and they started to dramatically change in some adverse way. It is possible, I know, to transfer from one religious order to another, although this is never ever lightly done and an application to transfer is well looked into first. I am not too sure of the procedure, but it may be necessary for some to apply through Rome, others to apply to their diocesan Bishop. It may be possible to simply transfer through the superior of an Order. As I said I am not too sure of the procedure, but that it can be done. I know personally of one Carmelite nun who transferred into Carmel from another religious order.
I know of another religious sister who was a superior in the Order who left in the post V2 confusions in religious life, and was consecrated as a canonical virgin.

Barb

That’s very very good to know.

Thanks!

 

[Monica4316]

I had a thought… on some of the websites, they explicitly say that they are loyal to the Pope. Is this any indication ? If they say this, does it mean it’s definitely true?
Also if a priest recommends an order for you to check out… and if it’s an order that’s respected in the diocese… maybe that’s another indication?

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I had a thought… on some of the websites, they explicitly say that they are loyal to the Pope. Is this any indication ? If they say this, does it mean it’s definitely true?
Also if a priest recommends an order for you to check out… and if it’s an order that’s respected in the diocese… maybe that’s another indication?

I dont think anything really is fail safe, although one would hope that statements on a website and especially an Order respected in the diocese would be a pretty reliable indication. I think the answer is to really consider postulancy and the two years of noviciate and even temporary vows to a lesser degree as all discernment stages to final and perpetual vows which is the actual final decision confirmed by God through the Bishop/superiors - a six or five half year living together process of discernment that should be the best of indications of the direction, attitudes and perspectives within a community.

Barb

 

[Cloisters]

religiouslife.com/

cmswr.org/

cloisters.tripod.com/

These three links have more links to communities faithful to the Magisterium.

Blessings,
Cloisters

 

[1234]

Just one point on the supposition that one was professed for life into a community and they started to dramatically change in some adverse way. It is possible, I know, to transfer from one religious order to another, although this is never ever lightly done and an application to transfer is well looked into first. I am not too sure of the procedure, but it may be necessary for some to apply through Rome, others to apply to their diocesan Bishop. It may be possible to simply transfer through the superior of an Order. As I said I am not too sure of the procedure, but that it can be done. I know personally of one Carmelite nun who transferred into Carmel from another religious order.
I know of another religious sister who was a superior in the Order who left in the post V2 confusions in religious life, and was consecrated as a canonical virgin.Barb

As a matter of fact, this sort of transfer is becoming fairly common, mainly among women’s orders. It may reflect that the ‘donor’ order or (usually) a branch of an order is dying, in addition to having become too liberal or conservative for the religious who is leaving. I believe that it usually is accompanied by at least one year of some type of novitiate or religious orientation in her order.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

As a matter of fact, this sort of transfer is becoming fairly common, mainly among women’s orders. It may reflect that the ‘donor’ order or (usually) a branch of an order is dying, in addition to having become too liberal or conservative for the religious who is leaving. I believe that it usually is accompanied by at least one year of some type of novitiate or religious orientation in her order.

Yes it is and it is I think accompanied by the wearing of the religious habit (at least in the Carmelite instance of which I am aware it was), since the sister is a professed religious.

 

[Drilling4Truth]

I’ve noticed a quick glance way to determine if a community/order is orthodox or not. See how many young people they have as postulants or novices. The more orthodox communities are growing at an astonishing rate while many of the more modern communities don’t have many interested candidates.

Of course, visiting the community for a period of time will give you a better idea of the community life. When I did my vocations visit with the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal, what struck me was that they didn’t try to pressure me at all, unlike the Benedictines I stayed with previously. It was then that I realized the Benedictine abbey hadn’t had a new novice in years while the CFR’s would be getting over a dozen new postulants every single fall.

Now, you will have much debate on what constitutes an orthodox order. To some if the Mass isn’t in Latin the order isn’t orthodox. Well, The Franciscan Friars of the Renewal have a very simple Mass said in English and it was more reverent and orthodox than any Mass I had been to up to that time.

 

[1234]

I’ve noticed a quick glance way to determine if a community/order is orthodox or not. See how many young people they have as postulants or novices. The more orthodox communities are growing at an astonishing rate while many of the more modern communities don’t have many interested candidates.

Of course, visiting the community for a period of time will give you a better idea of the community life. When I did my vocations visit with the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal, what struck me was that they didn’t try to pressure me at all, unlike the Benedictines I stayed with previously. It was then that I realized the Benedictine abbey hadn’t had a new novice in years while the CFR’s would be getting over a dozen new postulants every single fall.

Now, you will have much debate on what constitutes an orthodox order. To some if the Mass isn’t in Latin the order isn’t orthodox. Well, The Franciscan Friars of the Renewal have a very simple Mass said in English and it was more reverent and orthodox than any Mass I had been to up to that time.

Postulants don’t equal ‘orthodoxy’. Although it is true that young people are attracted to the habited, ‘orthodox’ orders, there are many of these not attracting vocations. There aren’t enough vocations and some of the habited orders have a very well developed recruitment system for attracting them. A number of the habited traditional Discalced Carmelite Nun monasteries are dying. The nuns didn’t get on the web bandwagon and now they are too old. and judging from the many who don’t persevere, I suspect that a number of the orders attracting lots of entrants aren’t very selective.

The ‘updated’ orders suffer by comparison because they were so many and so large. There is no way that the entry numbers of the 1950’s and 1960’s were going to last indefinitely. The people entering these orders are older and well-educated, often with multiple degrees, and from professional life. Many have had marriages annuled and have grown children and even have grandchildren. It’s a different demographic that the habited orders. Because the stakes are so high for entrants, in view of giving up a job, selling a car and a house, etc., these orders are very selective in who they let enter, and have a higher retention rate.

I think that it is very shallow to consider the numbers entering in deciding whether to enter a certain order or not.

 

[Drilling4Truth]

Postulants don’t equal ‘orthodoxy’. Although it is true that young people are attracted to the habited, ‘orthodox’ orders, there are many of these not attracting vocations. There aren’t enough vocations and some of the habited orders have a very well developed recruitment system for attracting them. A number of the habited traditional Discalced Carmelite Nun monasteries are dying. The nuns didn’t get on the web bandwagon and now they are too old. and judging from the many who don’t persevere, I suspect that a number of the orders attracting lots of entrants aren’t very selective.

The ‘updated’ orders suffer by comparison because they were so many and so large. There is no way that the entry numbers of the 1950’s and 1960’s were going to last indefinitely. The people entering these orders are older and well-educated, often with multiple degrees, and from professional life. Many have had marriages annuled and have grown children and even have grandchildren. It’s a different demographic that the habited orders. Because the stakes are so high for entrants, in view of giving up a job, selling a car and a house, etc., these orders are very selective in who they let enter, and have a higher retention rate.

I think that it is very shallow to consider the numbers entering in deciding whether to enter a certain order or not.

This is why I said at the beginning that it was a “quick glance” way of looking into a community. I also said that visiting a community for a period of time for a period of time would give one a better idea if the community life.

Forgive me, but I think you’re looking for controversy where one does not exist. We both agree that entering the religious life is a huge decision, one that I myself am involved in. Mine was a short and direct response to a general question. I could have gone into greater detail and written at length. However, I think more people appreciate short responses from a wide range of people in this forum. I’m sorry if I appeared “shallow” to you.

 

[1234]

I wrote to respond to the first paragraph of what you wrote:

<<I’ve noticed a quick glance way to determine if a community/order is orthodox or not. See how many young people they have as postulants or novices. The more orthodox communities are growing at an astonishing rate while many of the more modern communities don’t have many interested candidates…>>

My observations are that a few of the habited orders are growing rapidly–they are popular and ‘fashionable’’, but many other habited orders are not growing rapidly, not only habited cloistered but several orders in habits that were founded in Europe, especially Poland. Some other orders which previously grew rapidly appear now to be slowing down.

I stand by my observations. I have had a lot of opportunity and interest in following who is growing and* how many* communities are growing, since a (very few) appear to grab the press and general interest, which creates a distorted view of the whole.

 

[odubhghail]

However, those whose ranks swelled in the 50s and 60s include some of the habited congregations-who have not been hit as badly as, say, the more-ahem-change oriented groups. And, yes, many of the more orthodox communities DO attract a large number of new members. The CFRs, for example, were attracting large numbers before the advent of the internet. I would argue that a community’s orthodoxy is a definite drawing card.
Now, the orthodoxy of a group may not always appear on the surface-the Ferdinand Benedictines are quite solid, but do not wear a uniform habit. One community I know of in Toronto, however, is habited, and also quite heterodox.
As for the greying progressive women’s orders of the 50s and 60s-by their fruits ye shall know them-and the fruit of all the workshops and renewal seminars has been-nothing.
Their decline cannot be explained away simply by demographic shifts.
Groups that will survive have a definite sense of their own mission, as well as a dynamic prayer life rooted in the Lord.

 

[Sister_Helena]

I started my discernment by gathering first-hand what the Church’s idea of an authentic religious life. we have several documents pertaining to religious life that were released by the Congregation on Religious life you can refer to. Some of them are Perfecta Caritatis, Essential Elements of Religious Life, Vita Consecrata. In this way, you will know what constitutes orthodoxy. Orthodoxy can have different shades of color these days. So it is wise to use the Church’s standard.

Then set out to explore the Communities and Orders which attract you. Use your knowledge of what the Church says in her documents and do a mental checklist of where the individual community stands. you can not always trust what others tell you about a religious community, you get mix reviews.

If you want to take it further, choose to have a lived-in experience (most communities allow this) so you can see the daily prayer life and community dynamics.

But remember that religious life is not a business enterprise where you can calculate checks and balances. It is radical because it involves taking risks and taking a leap of faith. All the individuals in Scriptures who answered a call took risks. It is a life lacking human certitude because it is a life meant to be embraced in pure trust and faith.