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tossolul
Guest
any suggestions, or is it not possible?
How would you go about proving God's existence to an atheist or agnostic?
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elwedriddsche
Guest
If your intent is to convert them to Christianity, my suggestion is to ask them up front if they are open to conversion and respect their answer if they decline. If they answer in the affirmative, why not ask them what kind of proof they’d accept and take it from there? Don’t be surprised if you run into a brick wall, though.
If you wish to debate the existence of god as philosophical or theological subject matter, please try to find an argument we haven’t heard before…
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tossolul
Guest
No, I wasn’t trying to debate. I was on another forum, and this seemed to be what it always came down to…If you cant’ prove that God exists then I won’t accept anything else you have to say. I don’t know how to prove it, but I somehow want to show that you shouldn’t have to also. You’re right, it is difficult to talk to them about. I figure as long as we’re charitable with each other there is no harm in discussing.
I was just looking to see if anyone had any back up for me.
I was just looking to see if anyone had any back up for me.
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Pete2
Guest
It is never a waste of time to share God’s message. God wants you to try, even with hardened agnostics and atheists. Pray for help before having the conversation.
I like the arguments CS Lewis uses in Mere Christianity, I think this sums it up (remind me if I’m wrong…it’s been awhile)…
1 - look at how intricate and beautiful nature is, including people…there must be a creative force behind it.
2 - the inner moral compass of humans is proof of God’s existence. How else can you explain the sense of right and wrong that everyone has, and how amazingly consistent it is across the geographies and cultures of the world?
Of course, God’s existence can’t be proven, it’s a matter of faith.
Pete
I like the arguments CS Lewis uses in Mere Christianity, I think this sums it up (remind me if I’m wrong…it’s been awhile)…
1 - look at how intricate and beautiful nature is, including people…there must be a creative force behind it.
2 - the inner moral compass of humans is proof of God’s existence. How else can you explain the sense of right and wrong that everyone has, and how amazingly consistent it is across the geographies and cultures of the world?
Of course, God’s existence can’t be proven, it’s a matter of faith.
Pete
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elwedriddsche
Guest
Out of curiosity, which forum?
Speaking as an atheist, agnostic, or whatever label you want to assign to me, with some qualifications I don’t care what anybody else believes in. If one side wishes to convince the other, though, they have to meet the standard of proof that the other side sets. Invariably, this leads to frustration all around.
Myself being one of them. Forget about proof, just say how you see things from your theistic perspective. If such leads to the challenge of proving god’s existence, move on.
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Pete2
Guest
I can’t prove to you that God exists, elwedriddsche, but I can tell you that God is working in your life. You’re on this forum.
Pete
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elwedriddsche
Guest
I beg to differ.
You can politely ask if somebody of a different belief is interested in the discussion you envision, but if you proceed without consent, the discussion is already over.
Another thing for you to consider is this - are you simply proselytizing or will you put your own faith on the line? If you answer no to the latter, why should an atheist or agnostic agree to engage in such an inequitable exchange?
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elwedriddsche
Guest
I’ve heard that line beforeI can’t prove to you that God exists, elwedriddsche, but I can tell you that God is working in your life. You’re on this forum.
Pete
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b_justb
Guest
newadvent.org/summa/100203.htm
An oldie but a goodie: St. Thomas Aquinas and his 5 reasons for the existence of God.
An oldie but a goodie: St. Thomas Aquinas and his 5 reasons for the existence of God.
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JOHN_6_41-71
Guest
Being raised as an atheist and having several in my family, I’m familiar with the mentality. I would just ask for what kind of concrete proof do they have that God doesn’t exist. I was never able to find any. For me, to even think that things as immensely complicated as DNA, or love or human thought was just some sort of cosmic blunder seemed far more asinine and far less probable than the fact that we are here to unite ourselves and be one with our loving Creator.
I argue with an atheist like this. “Let’s just say for the sake of argument that you’re right, we are just some sort of cosmic blunder, and that when we die we are nothing more than a dead piece of meat. When you and I are both dead pieces of meat in the ground. I want you to tell me how I (a person of faith) am any worse off than you? Now let’s turn the tables.” I decided I would rather walk a hundred years being a fool that is completely wrong than to spend one second at the gates of hell. For me , it was totally worth it. We all have to cast our lots with something, I chose the Catholic Church.
I could go much deeper, but I don’t have the time. I’ll just say that it’s been my experience that atheism sends a message of nothing but despair and hopelessness. I guess that just wasn’t good enough for me.
I argue with an atheist like this. “Let’s just say for the sake of argument that you’re right, we are just some sort of cosmic blunder, and that when we die we are nothing more than a dead piece of meat. When you and I are both dead pieces of meat in the ground. I want you to tell me how I (a person of faith) am any worse off than you? Now let’s turn the tables.” I decided I would rather walk a hundred years being a fool that is completely wrong than to spend one second at the gates of hell. For me , it was totally worth it. We all have to cast our lots with something, I chose the Catholic Church.
I could go much deeper, but I don’t have the time. I’ll just say that it’s been my experience that atheism sends a message of nothing but despair and hopelessness. I guess that just wasn’t good enough for me.
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tossolul
Guest
Thanks for the help with this!
The forum I was on is myspace.com. But I see a trend in any thread I am in gets deleted. I’m only guessing, but I think the people moderating it might not be of the christian sort…
I’m going to try some of your advice.
The forum I was on is myspace.com. But I see a trend in any thread I am in gets deleted. I’m only guessing, but I think the people moderating it might not be of the christian sort…
I’m going to try some of your advice.
M
Maranatha
Guest
First, I’d find out what sort of “proof” they are looking for. As Catholics, we believe God is not of this universe but is an external Creator. Science is the study of this universe and thus can not imperially prove or disprove His existence.
If they are willing to accept logical proof, find out if it needs to be beyond a shadow of a doubt or beyond a reasonable doubt. If they are willing to accept a level of proof that would get a conviction in a court of law (reasonable doubt) then St. Thomas Aquinas is the place to start. If you’re not a philosophy student then you might want the arguments in an easy to understand vernacular. They can be found at peterkreeft.com.
If they are willing to accept logical proof, find out if it needs to be beyond a shadow of a doubt or beyond a reasonable doubt. If they are willing to accept a level of proof that would get a conviction in a court of law (reasonable doubt) then St. Thomas Aquinas is the place to start. If you’re not a philosophy student then you might want the arguments in an easy to understand vernacular. They can be found at peterkreeft.com.
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elwedriddsche
Guest
I encounter heavy-handed moderation almost exclusively on religious forums, but there’s no monopoly…
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Pete2
Guest
There are no coincidences, elwedriddsche. God bless!I’ve heard that line before
Pete
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Gilbert_Keith
Guest
Up front I would admit that God’s existence can never be proven to an atheist or agnostic because their criteria for proof is always going to be of a rational type, whereas we know that God is beyond reason and understanding except in the degree that God wants us to know Him by the various ways He reveals himself to us…
If the atheist baulks at this, and considers it a copout, he should be reminded of the frailty and limitations of the human mind, and that we didn’t even know about evolution until recent times. Yet if evolution was true without our knowing it, why can’t God be true even when we are inclined to deny Him? As every Christian knows, we grow into the knowledge of God … unless we are in chronic denial. In which case an interesting question arises that needs to be answered honestly … why are we in chronic denial?
By the same token, I would remind the atheist or agnostic that neither can they prove that God does not exist (atheism) or that his existence cannot be known (agnosticism). There is no *rational *foundation for either position … which springs more from the will than from the intellect. That is to say, both the atheist and the agnostic really don’t want God to exist. They are great Nay Sayers, and this negativism tends to pervade all their thinking:
No God
No free will
No objective morality
No sin
No submission (humility)
No redemption
No immortality
No judgment
Etc.
If the atheist baulks at this, and considers it a copout, he should be reminded of the frailty and limitations of the human mind, and that we didn’t even know about evolution until recent times. Yet if evolution was true without our knowing it, why can’t God be true even when we are inclined to deny Him? As every Christian knows, we grow into the knowledge of God … unless we are in chronic denial. In which case an interesting question arises that needs to be answered honestly … why are we in chronic denial?
By the same token, I would remind the atheist or agnostic that neither can they prove that God does not exist (atheism) or that his existence cannot be known (agnosticism). There is no *rational *foundation for either position … which springs more from the will than from the intellect. That is to say, both the atheist and the agnostic really don’t want God to exist. They are great Nay Sayers, and this negativism tends to pervade all their thinking:
No God
No free will
No objective morality
No sin
No submission (humility)
No redemption
No immortality
No judgment
Etc.
J
JOHN_6_41-71
Guest
To pick up a little from where I left off. Two of the most outspoken atheists in my family are my father and my sister.
I believe many atheists have fallen into the same traps the feminists have. I once heard psychologist say that in all his years of counseling people he has never met a feminist that had a truely good Christian father. Their fathers were either absent (emotionally or physically) or totally overbearing and abusive. Thus leaving them with a very negative view of men as a whole.
I can see the same similarities with my atheist loved ones. My father was forced to be very involved in the Anglican Church as a child. However, his parents never reinforced Christian values at home and expected the church to spoon feed him his faith. Thus he rebelled as an adult. This resulted in us being raised with a mostly absent and generally warped view of faith, which my sister still follows to this day.
I find it interesting how my sister is very quick to label the Catholic Church as condemning fear mongers while her second oldest son, who has not even reached adolescence, is already talking about committing suicide. She been dragging him off to all kinds of lollipop therapists (non-Christian I’m sure) and just can’t understand why he’s not happy.
Gee sis, you think maybe it’s because it’s because you’re teaching him nothing but despair and hopelessness.
You’ll never find anyone more terrified than an atheist who is forced to face his or her own mortality, or that of a loved one. They see nothing but bad, bad, bad.
However, It’s also been my experience as a firefighter that you’ll never find an atheist inside a burning building.
I’ll keep praying for them.
I believe many atheists have fallen into the same traps the feminists have. I once heard psychologist say that in all his years of counseling people he has never met a feminist that had a truely good Christian father. Their fathers were either absent (emotionally or physically) or totally overbearing and abusive. Thus leaving them with a very negative view of men as a whole.
I can see the same similarities with my atheist loved ones. My father was forced to be very involved in the Anglican Church as a child. However, his parents never reinforced Christian values at home and expected the church to spoon feed him his faith. Thus he rebelled as an adult. This resulted in us being raised with a mostly absent and generally warped view of faith, which my sister still follows to this day.
I find it interesting how my sister is very quick to label the Catholic Church as condemning fear mongers while her second oldest son, who has not even reached adolescence, is already talking about committing suicide. She been dragging him off to all kinds of lollipop therapists (non-Christian I’m sure) and just can’t understand why he’s not happy.
Gee sis, you think maybe it’s because it’s because you’re teaching him nothing but despair and hopelessness.
You’ll never find anyone more terrified than an atheist who is forced to face his or her own mortality, or that of a loved one. They see nothing but bad, bad, bad.
However, It’s also been my experience as a firefighter that you’ll never find an atheist inside a burning building.
I’ll keep praying for them.
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elwedriddsche
Guest
It’s also not a coincidence that just as some sincerely try to plant a seed, others make sure to torch it…
Regarding the standard of proof, I always thought this vent sums it up quite nicely:
eclecticsatyr.hostultra.com/griswoldian_catechism.htm
It’s neither a Christian nor an atheist website, by the way.
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Mystophilus
Guest
Because I am right, and s/he is wrong!!!
(And yes, ladies and gentlemen, the sarcasm light is on.)
You have mentioned a very good point.
Any halfway intelligent individual will quickly realise that the person to whom they are talking is interested only in gaining Heaven Points by saving their heathen soul, and not actually interested in listening to them. At this point, the ‘prospect’ has no reason to continue the conversation.
This is a problem which I often encounter when talking with Muslims: their beliefs are not at all examinable. It does not help that they are specifically enjoined by the Quran not to make friends with unbelievers lest they be corrupted (3.28, 118, 175; 4.89, 144; 5.51; 17.73; 41.34; 60.1, 13), although this is despite the fact that Christians are “nearest in friendship” to Muslims (5.82). I do not know whether I am going to understand this book even if I learn Arabic.
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Chris_W
Guest
Not one piece of evidence is, by itself, wholly sufficient. However, we can look at the convergence of evidences.
I heard this example: I have never been to Istanbul and yet I know without a doubt that it exists. Why would I believe that? Someone could show me a postcard from that place, but I could argue that it could be fake. Someone could show me a world atlas, but I could argue that it is incorrect. I could see a news report about it, but I could say that it could theoretically be the result of video trickery. I could talk to someone on the phone from there, but I could argue that he may not really be calling from Istanbul. I could read about it in a history book, or a biography of someone from that place, but I don’t necessarily believe what I read. And yet I know without any doubt that Istanbul is a real place. It does exist. I know it exists because of the convergence of evidences. The likelihood of all those things being the result of fraud is simply not reasonable to believe. There can be no other explanation for the agreement of so many independent evidences, except that it does exist.
Likewise, there are too many things that cannot be explained any other way than a creator. Science books and magazines that discuss modern chemistry, biology, physics, and astronomy absolutely stagger the mind as they explain the intricate workings of visible creation, especially living organisms. And the more we learn the more we discover how little we know. The more deeply we look into our natural world with powerful microscopes the more astonishing and spectacular we find it.
Humans are different from all other animals in that we know how we ought to act and that urging causes us to decide between conflicting instincts. Some animals appear to love and/or have feelings. I do not dispute that (they appear to). However, the ordinary individual knows that he is very different from other mere animals. The earliest evidences of man show drawings in caves. No other animal does that. No other being on earth wears clothes because they do not experience shame or the need to cover certain parts of the body, or to make themselves look better. No other animals write letters or read books. Only humans tell jokes, or find humor in incongruity. Only human beings experience boredom (cows only look that way). There is something about human beings that transcends the limits of space and time. It is called spirit, or soul. Nothing in particular satisfies us; not power, nor prestige, nor pleasure, nor sex, nor drugs, nor money. We have a mind that yearns for everything.
Nothing else on earth is like mankind. Why could it not be because we are created in the image and likeness of God? Few atheists arrive at that conclusion as the result of an intellectual pursuit for truth. Atheism is more often a decision that occurs first for various reasons, and then the pursuit begins to find evidence to support that notion.
I heard this example: I have never been to Istanbul and yet I know without a doubt that it exists. Why would I believe that? Someone could show me a postcard from that place, but I could argue that it could be fake. Someone could show me a world atlas, but I could argue that it is incorrect. I could see a news report about it, but I could say that it could theoretically be the result of video trickery. I could talk to someone on the phone from there, but I could argue that he may not really be calling from Istanbul. I could read about it in a history book, or a biography of someone from that place, but I don’t necessarily believe what I read. And yet I know without any doubt that Istanbul is a real place. It does exist. I know it exists because of the convergence of evidences. The likelihood of all those things being the result of fraud is simply not reasonable to believe. There can be no other explanation for the agreement of so many independent evidences, except that it does exist.
Likewise, there are too many things that cannot be explained any other way than a creator. Science books and magazines that discuss modern chemistry, biology, physics, and astronomy absolutely stagger the mind as they explain the intricate workings of visible creation, especially living organisms. And the more we learn the more we discover how little we know. The more deeply we look into our natural world with powerful microscopes the more astonishing and spectacular we find it.
Humans are different from all other animals in that we know how we ought to act and that urging causes us to decide between conflicting instincts. Some animals appear to love and/or have feelings. I do not dispute that (they appear to). However, the ordinary individual knows that he is very different from other mere animals. The earliest evidences of man show drawings in caves. No other animal does that. No other being on earth wears clothes because they do not experience shame or the need to cover certain parts of the body, or to make themselves look better. No other animals write letters or read books. Only humans tell jokes, or find humor in incongruity. Only human beings experience boredom (cows only look that way). There is something about human beings that transcends the limits of space and time. It is called spirit, or soul. Nothing in particular satisfies us; not power, nor prestige, nor pleasure, nor sex, nor drugs, nor money. We have a mind that yearns for everything.
Nothing else on earth is like mankind. Why could it not be because we are created in the image and likeness of God? Few atheists arrive at that conclusion as the result of an intellectual pursuit for truth. Atheism is more often a decision that occurs first for various reasons, and then the pursuit begins to find evidence to support that notion.
G
Gilbert_Keith
Guest
CHRIS
Atheism is more often a decision that occurs first for various reasons, and then the pursuit begins to find evidence to support that notion.
How true! As I said above, atheism springs from the desire for there to be no God, rather than the intellectual evidence that God does not exist. No evidence exists that God does not exist. The conviction therefore must be in the will, rather than in the intellect. Find out why the atheist *does not want *God to exist, and you begin to understand how to address the underlying problem.
Atheism is more often a decision that occurs first for various reasons, and then the pursuit begins to find evidence to support that notion.
How true! As I said above, atheism springs from the desire for there to be no God, rather than the intellectual evidence that God does not exist. No evidence exists that God does not exist. The conviction therefore must be in the will, rather than in the intellect. Find out why the atheist *does not want *God to exist, and you begin to understand how to address the underlying problem.
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