How would you reply to this?

[danandirma]

this is a conversation I’m having with a protestant in yahoo answers.

Subject: Re: faith alone?

Message: Doesn’t bother me at all. I understand the proper context of James. Faith without works is dead in terms of getting rewards in heaven, not how to get into heaven.

James calls his listeners brethren. If works were required to get into heaven, then James cannot call them brethren until all have sufficiently done enough works to “prove” themselves brethren.

Furthermore, chapter 2 in James shows that we are justified in the eyes of man by works, since man can’t see faith. And, the salvation in question is salvation from consequences of sins, consequences in this life, not in the next. The use of the word “saved” doesn’t always mean salvation from hell. For instance, 1 Timothy says that women are “saved through childbearing”. You don’t suggest that it means saved from hell, right? You think that all childless women go to hell? No. It means saved from missing out on a fulfilling experience that motherhood is.

Likewise James wants the already saved believer, to also be saved from consequences in this life, and saved from missing out on rewards in heaven.

Only faith alone gets you into heaven. Works gets you rewards in heaven.

 

[blackst]

this is a conversation I’m having with a protestant in yahoo answers.

Subject: Re: faith alone?

Message: Doesn’t bother me at all. I understand the proper context of James. Faith without works is dead in terms of getting rewards in heaven, not how to get into heaven.

James calls his listeners brethren. If works were required to get into heaven, then James cannot call them brethren until all have sufficiently done enough works to “prove” themselves brethren.

Furthermore, chapter 2 in James shows that we are justified in the eyes of man by works, since man can’t see faith. And, the salvation in question is salvation from consequences of sins, consequences in this life, not in the next. The use of the word “saved” doesn’t always mean salvation from hell. For instance, 1 Timothy says that women are “saved through childbearing”. You don’t suggest that it means saved from hell, right? You think that all childless women go to hell? No. It means saved from missing out on a fulfilling experience that motherhood is.

Likewise James wants the already saved believer, to also be saved from consequences in this life, and saved from missing out on rewards in heaven.

Only faith alone gets you into heaven. Works gets you rewards in heaven.

1. Jesus said by your words you shall be justified, or condemed, works,
2. If you love me you will keep my commands, works,
3. Only those who do the will of my Father will inherit iternal life, works.
4. The beatitudes, works.
5. Fasting works.
6. Almsgiving works.
7. No one who blasphemes aginst the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, works.
8. Picking up your cross and fallowing Jesus, works.
9. Whoever wants to be great must be a servant, works.
10. Whoever believes in me will perform the same works as me and will perform even greater works.

I would ask him who do you think Jesus was, and who blinded paul which is who you quoted and who restored his sight, and who gave him the power to raise the dead?

 

[Bruised_Reed]

(…)

Furthermore, chapter 2 in James shows that we are justified in the eyes of man by works, since man can’t see faith. And, the salvation in question is salvation from consequences of sins, consequences in this life, not in the next. The use of the word “saved” doesn’t always mean salvation from hell. For instance, 1 Timothy says that women are “saved through childbearing”. You don’t suggest that it means saved from hell, right? You think that all childless women go to hell? No. It means saved from missing out on a fulfilling experience that motherhood is.

(…)

I wondered how common this interpretation was so I googled it. Color me surprised; it’s pretty common. But it begs the question, I think.

No, it doesn’t mean childless women will go to hell; nor does it mean that women with children get a free pass to heaven. The verse is referring to sanctification. Mothers get to work toward holiness in a very focused way, through the sacrifices, suffering, and frequent humbling experiences that happen everyday.

Which do you think God would prefer us not to “miss out” on: fullfilment or sanctification? Fullfilment seems like a pretty light-weight thing for Paul to throw out there.

Just a caution: I don’t know if this guy will be able to wrap his head around this because they have a very different approach to salvation and sanctification. And even where there is some common ground they think we are completely wrong so can’t see it or accept what is presented. They can’t see the the forest for the trees.

 

[srferdave]

James calls his listeners brethren. If works were required to get into heaven, then James cannot call them brethren until all have sufficiently done enough works to “prove” themselves brethren.

I don’t have time right now to comment on everything. But for now i will comment on the quote above. When James speaks of “brethren” he is not speaking of people “already saved”. He is speaking of people “in Christ”. This term is used several other places in the Bible that can prove that it does not mean people already saved. So, I don’t understand why he implies that brethen means “already saved”.

Secondly, there is no set limit of works that need to be done to enter heaven as he is implying this by saying “enough works”. Yes, we need to “do” things to get into heaven (this is works). But God does not set a limit to what needs to be done. We just have to do the things we were told to do.

 

[danandirma]

thanks. this was his reply…
Message: Well I don’t agree with you.

But to humor me, tell me, how many works make you to “cross the line” from unsaved to saved?

In other words, when do you know that you’re going to heaven with 100% certainty?

Or can you not have that? Because, I have 100% certainty that I will be in heaven no matter what.

 

[srferdave]

thanks. this was his reply…
Message: Well I don’t agree with you.

But to humor me, tell me, how many works make you to “cross the line” from unsaved to saved?

In other words, when do you know that you’re going to heaven with 100% certainty?

Or can you not have that? Because, I have 100% certainty that I will be in heaven no matter what.

Ask him… Where does it say in the Bible that we can know with 100% certainty that we will be in heaven? He won’t be able to find it. But I’m interested to know what he comes up with.

Also… God is the only judge. We can not judge ourselves.

 

[danandirma]

I gave him these verses
Assurance of Salvation?
Mt 7:21 - not everyone saying “Lord, Lord” will inherit
Mt 24:13 - those who persevere to the end will be saved
Rom 11:22 - remain in his kindness or you will be cut off
Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling
1Cor 9:27 - drive body for fear of being disqualified
1Cor 10:11-12 - those thinking they are secure may fall
Gal 5:4 - separated from Christ, you’ve fallen from grace
2Tim 2:11-13 - must hold out to the end to reign with Christ
Hb 6:4-6 - describes sharers in Holy Spirit who then fall away
Heb 10:26-27 - if sin after receiving truth, judgment remains

his reply
*Message: Wow, well I feel sorry for you. I have 100% certainty (1 John 5:13).

I will be in heaven, no matter what. That’s what Jesus did for me. I’m sorry that you don’t believe He did it for you too. You’d have to believe it to actually get into heaven.

then he said…
Message: You don’t believe that the words of Paul are also the Word of God and therefore hold the same authority as the words of Jesus?

No wonder we don’t agree. *

 

[srferdave]

I gave him these verses
Assurance of Salvation?
Mt 7:21 - not everyone saying “Lord, Lord” will inherit
Mt 24:13 - those who persevere to the end will be saved
Rom 11:22 - remain in his kindness or you will be cut off
Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling
1Cor 9:27 - drive body for fear of being disqualified
1Cor 10:11-12 - those thinking they are secure may fall
Gal 5:4 - separated from Christ, you’ve fallen from grace
2Tim 2:11-13 - must hold out to the end to reign with Christ
Hb 6:4-6 - describes sharers in Holy Spirit who then fall away
Heb 10:26-27 - if sin after receiving truth, judgment remains

his reply
*Message: Wow, well I feel sorry for you. I have 100% certainty (1 John 5:13).

I will be in heaven, no matter what. That’s what Jesus did for me. I’m sorry that you don’t believe He did it for you too. You’d have to believe it to actually get into heaven.

then he said…
Message: You don’t believe that the words of Paul are also the Word of God and therefore hold the same authority as the words of Jesus?

No wonder we don’t agree. *

What Paul is saying in 1John 5:13 is that if we are in the state of Grace, in Jesus Christ, or are worthy of salvation, that we can know that we will go to heaven. But only God can tell you that you are in the state of Grace. So, in other words, we can know that if we do Gods will we will be saved. But only God can tell us that we’ve done his will. Only God can tell us that we are in the state of Grace.

It’s as if you are “playing God” to say that you are 100% sure you are going to heaven. Now you can be very very certain that you are going to heaven, as many of the saints probably did. But, to say with absolute certainty that you are going to heaven is a form of blasphemy.

 

[srferdave]

then he said…
Message: You don’t believe that the words of Paul are also the Word of God and therefore hold the same authority as the words of Jesus?

No wonder we don’t agree.

Tell him that we believe everything in the Bible. And tell him to stop assuming things. He seems to assume many fallacy’s about our faith.

 

[Spirithound]

But to humor me, tell me, how many works make you to “cross the line” from unsaved to saved?

Everything God asks of you.

In other words, when do you know that you’re going to heaven with 100% certainty?

Or can you not have that? Because, I have 100% certainty that I will be in heaven no matter what.

Your friend doesn’t have 100% certainty that he will be in heaven. He thinks he does, but his opinion has no effect of reality.

 

[RobbyS]

What Paul is saying in 1John 5:13 is that if we are in the state of Grace, in Jesus Christ, or are worthy of salvation, that we can know that we will go to heaven. But only God can tell you that you are in the state of Grace. So, in other words, we can know that if we do Gods will we will be saved. But only God can tell us that we’ve done his will. Only God can tell us that we are in the state of Grace.

It’s as if you are “playing God” to say that you are 100% sure you are going to heaven. Now you can be very very certain that you are going to heaven, as many of the saints probably did. But, to say with absolute certainty that you are going to heaven is a form of blasphemy.

I am curious who taught him this doctrine. Neither Luther nor Calvin believed this, only radical antinomians like the Anabaptists.To the great reformers
it was conditional on God’s having chosen them. That’s why the Puritans, many of them, kept spiritual diaries.

 

[srferdave]

I am curious who taught him this doctrine. Neither Luther nor Calvin believed this, only radical antinomians like the Anabaptists.To the great reformers
it was conditional on God’s having chosen them. That’s why the Puritans, many of them, kept spiritual diaries.

How can anyone but God know for 100% certainty that one is saved?

 

[blackst]

this is a conversation I’m having with a protestant in yahoo answers.

Subject: Re: faith alone?

Message: Doesn’t bother me at all. I understand the proper context of James. Faith without works is dead in terms of getting rewards in heaven, not how to get into heaven.

James calls his listeners brethren. If works were required to get into heaven, then James cannot call them brethren until all have sufficiently done enough works to “prove” themselves brethren.

Furthermore, chapter 2 in James shows that we are justified in the eyes of man by works, since man can’t see faith. And, the salvation in question is salvation from consequences of sins, consequences in this life, not in the next. The use of the word “saved” doesn’t always mean salvation from hell. For instance, 1 Timothy says that women are “saved through childbearing”. You don’t suggest that it means saved from hell, right? You think that all childless women go to hell? No. It means saved from missing out on a fulfilling experience that motherhood is.

Likewise James wants the already saved believer, to also be saved from consequences in this life, and saved from missing out on rewards in heaven.

Only faith alone gets you into heaven. Works gets you rewards in heaven.

If that is so then why does Jesus, say, whosoever gives a drink unto the least of these, does unto me as well and surley will not lose his reward, or Go and sin no more or else something worse may happen.

If there were unity in the church then the nuns would still be wearing the habit, and we would not have discussions about woman priests, and birth control would not be used by catholics or abortion practised in the church, and the bishops would not be disagreeing with Lay movments, there would not be disagreement about Sanctifacation, Homosexual Priests, The Church would be full, and those who don’t obey the command to keep Holy the Sabbath would return to Mass.

 

[mmmcounts]

Maybe this will help. Which of the following 3 options would you choose as the best one?

1. The first step of belief leads to incomplete salvation, so sanctification is a process that grants more salvation of the same kind. This requires admitting that Jesus’ death was not enough. Also that you are only partially saved. Both a bit awkward.

1. The first step of belief leads to complete and total salvation. You are not partially saved, you are completely saved. 100%. The process of sanctification does not make you any more saved. If you believe you can lose your salvation, works maintain salvation, cause you to persevere, and prevent you from losing it. Whether you believe in loss of salvation or not, works are evidence of salvation. But you do not gain any more salvation, because you were fully and completely saved to begin with.

1. The first step of belief leads to complete and total salvation of one kind, and then the process of sanctification leads to a salvation of a different kind. So you have 100% of Salvation A, but you also need to get some Salvation B. Then after you die, you get Salvation C. (I haven’t seen much support for this one).

Think about it. What’s your conclusion?

 

[Lux_Caelum]

thanks. this was his reply…
Message: Well I don’t agree with you.

But to humor me, tell me, how many works make you to “cross the line” from unsaved to saved?

In other words, when do you know that you’re going to heaven with 100% certainty?

Or can you not have that? Because, I have 100% certainty that I will be in heaven no matter what.

Turn it around and ask him how much “faith” one needs to be saved.

How does he equate “Faith without works is dead” to mean “rewards”?

Where in the bible is the word “Rewards” equated to “Works”?

Ask him on who’s authority he interprets scripture? We have the authority of the Church that was started by Jesus.

 

[srferdave]

This response is for mmmcounts.

I think I am fairly certain that I can say we both believe that Jesus died for everyone (100% of human beings on this planet). I also think that we can agree that not everyone will be saved. So than what did Jesus death do for us?

We agree that he died on the cross for our sins so that we may have eternal life (through the resurrection), for everyone. Yet, not everyone is saved. So the only explanation left is that he open the gates of heaven, that we may have eternal life. And we must do something to earn that reward.

 

[mmmcounts]

This response is for mmmcounts.

I think I am fairly certain that I can say we both believe that Jesus died for everyone (100% of human beings on this planet). I also think that we can agree that not everyone will be saved. So than what did Jesus death do for us?

We agree that he died on the cross for our sins so that we may have eternal life (through the resurrection), for everyone. Yet, not everyone is saved. So the only explanation left is that he open the gates of heaven, that we may have eternal life. And we must do something to earn that reward.

This is a response for srferdave. Did you choose option 1, 2, or 3?

 

[srferdave]

This is a response for srferdave. Did you choose option 1, 2, or 3?

I wouldn’t choose any one of your options as they are stated fully.

 

[srferdave]

The option that I would choose is… the Nicene Creed

 

[broski234]

thanks. this was his reply…
Message: Well I don’t agree with you.

But to humor me, tell me, how many works make you to “cross the line” from unsaved to saved?

In other words, when do you know that you’re going to heaven with 100% certainty?

Or can you not have that? Because, I have 100% certainty that I will be in heaven no matter what.

You know when you are going to Heaven or hell when you die and you reach judgement. It’s a little presumptious to claim your “right” to Heaven. That is why dying is the single most important act in our lives. That’s what I would tell your friend. Also, he/she may be just one of the ones Jesus told us about when he says “I never knew you”!