How would you respond to this reasoning for believing in reincarnation?

[TS_Aquinas]

All descriptions of nirvana are false. Remember also that “natural” and “supernatural” are categories from Western philosophy which do not always exactly match the roughly equivalent concepts in Buddhist philosophy. The gods, who are supernatural, may attain nirvana. Humans, who are not supernatural, may attain nirvana.

Is nirvana natural? No.

Is nirvana supernatural? No.

Is nirvana both natural and supernatural? No.

Is nirvana neither natural nor supernatural? No.

[The Buddha said:] There is, monks, an unborn, an unbecome, an unmade, an unconditioned. If there were not that unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, no escape would be possible from the born, become, made, conditioned. But precisely because there is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, escape from the born, become, made, conditioned is possible.

• Udana 8.3

Nirvana is enlightenment.

rossum

You sound like you adhere to the Theravada system, is that so?

 

[rossum]

You sound like you adhere to the Theravada system, is that so?

The Udana is part of the Pali Canon, but my theory is more Madhyamika, which is Mahayana. I find the ceremonial attached to Tibetan Buddhism tiresome, and I don’t get on well with their methods of meditation: visualisation. So I usually follow Theravada practice combined with Madhyamika theory.

rossum

 

[ebonykawai]

Enlightenment and reincarnation are two separate things. Enlightenment occurs during life, it is simply seeing things as they truly are without all of the blinders we wear everyday. Sort of like taking off a blindfold, it is our natural state that we strive to return to.

Reincarnation/rebirth occurs after death. It is the consciousness taking residence in a new physical state.

They are related, of course, but enlightenent is not a one-time deal. It can happen very gradually throughout a life, and over lifetimes.

 

[Gaber]

Very simple. If we are reincarnated because we are so imperfect, then we should be seeing a lot more perfect people out there. Think about it.

Yes. Think about that this is about the least violent time in human history and what it might take to acheive that.

 

[lerapt78]

Yes. Think about that this is about the least violent time in human history and what it might take to acheive that.

What do you mean by that?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I was listening to this radio show and the speaker was a big believer in reincarnation. He stated that it was illogical to believe that you only lived once because we are very imperfect beings.

To him you needed to be born multiple time to work on different imperfections to finally achieve I guess his version of heaven.

I had heard of reincarnation before and ‘learning’ during each ‘life’ but never that reasoning. I agree that we are very flawed but how would you respond to this line of reasoning?

From the Christian point of view, even if God allowed us to be reincarnated and live many times, we still would not be perfect, we still would not be better. For Christians only God is perfect, and communion with God is the only way to achieve perfection. If we don’t get that in one life, we will never get it no matter how many lives. So reincarnation is useless.

Also, our souls are immortal. We are in existence forever. So we are not reborn, we live on forever. Its just a question of where to we exist for all eternity at the end of time. Will it be with God in heaven, or suffer with the damned in hell. So we have one life to live that is forever, either way.

 

[Gaber]

From the Christian point of view, even if God allowed us to be reincarnated and live many times, we still would not be perfect, we still would not be better. For Christians only God is perfect, and communion with God is the only way to achieve perfection. If we don’t get that in one life, we will never get it no matter how many lives. So reincarnation is useless.

Also, our souls are immortal. We are in existence forever. So we are not reborn, we live on forever. Its just a question of where to we exist for all eternity at the end of time. Will it be with God in heaven, or suffer with the damned in hell. So we have one life to live that is forever, either way.

Cool. That’s “Christian” and a belief. Yet in one of the books excluded from the Bible Jesus talks about reincarnation, and healing, (His title originally was “Healer” unlike in “modern” translations that adopted other titles) as did some of the early Church Fathers. Go figure.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Not really. Nirvana is too ineffable to talk about a “position before incarnation.” And it’s not a “mistake” so much as just something that happens–attachments form and develop consciousnesses.

Edwin

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Gaber]

Not really. Nirvana is too ineffable to talk about a “position before incarnation.” And it’s not a “mistake” so much as just something that happens–attachments form and develop consciousnesses.

Edwin

Thatt is well said.

For my part I distinguish between Consciousness as Principle and awareness which is its seeming individuation in Universe, and is the componenet which is mistaken and ignored by attachment to its contents, yielding only a partial sense of how human awareness can actually be experienced. The dynamic is more along the lines of conforming the mentality to the actual structure of* Consciousness=Light to ideas>thoughts*. Thoughts are what what seem to constiute “self” but actually constitute “person” as distinct from self/soul, and are the contents of awareness, i.e., individuated Consciousness.

 

[Gaber]

Well from a Buddhist perspective, if I am correct (and please anyone feel free to correct me), incarnation itself is part of the error to be rectified. Our coming to this world and to this life was a mistake, and therefore, we need to reach Nirvana where there is a total restoration of our position before incarnation.

Incarnation in that sense is a proceedural error of perception by mistaking phenomena as self by identifiying incorrectly. In that view, the “jiva” I think it is called, or soul, cycles though yugas of experience and becomes educated out of its associaton with phenomena.

And to speak of Nirvana or Nirvanic Consciousness as timed in any way, or relative to time, is incorrect in that as our concept of Eternatlity, it has no component of duration, only of Being. The accomplished Gnani can reside with one “foot”* in each state: relative subject/object awareness and Nirvanic Consciousness. there is even a Catholic term for this, but I won’t make waves by using it in this context.

* "Foot" is a time honored symbol for under-standing.