How would you respond to this. ....?

[FJACatholic]

How would you respond to this?
I was on twitter and here is the basic transcript:

Question asked:

“What do you think the Great Deception will be that is talked about in 2 Thessalonians 2:11?”

A reply:

“the Catholic church and the pope…possibly. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and just the fact they call the pope god on earth.”

Some trying to correct him response:

"I’m not catholic but they don’t call the pope god on earth. They call him Vicarius Christi(christ’s representative)

His Rebuttal:

"They do. And are we not all REpresenting Christ?

Basically I want to know how to refute the Catholics call Pope God on earth and how would you answer his "are we not all REpresenting Christ? "

 

[howirenic]

Catholics don’t call the pope “God on Earth.” There’s nothing to argue there. If someone still thinks that after you tell them differently, then you’re not looking at a fruitful discussion.

As for “aren’t we all representing Christ?”, you need only explain that bishops are the successors to Christ’s apostles, and that the pope is the successor of Peter, the apostle Christ appointed to lead his flock.

(And yes, as an Orthodox Christian, I don’t believe the second point in the same way that Catholics do, but I do still believe that Peter was selected by Christ. But let’s not get into that.)

 

[FJACatholic]

(And yes, as an Orthodox Christian, I don’t believe the second point in the same way that Catholics do, but I do still believe that Peter was selected by Christ. But let’s not get into that.)

I understand.
Thank you for the feedback. …
If you don’t mind I also would like your opinion on the original person questions:

“What do you think the Great Deception will be that is talked about in 2 Thessalonians 2:11?”

How would you respond to that?
I was trying to edit my post to include it but it wasn’t letting me edit my own post.

 

[Augustine3]

A classic move anti-Catholics make, is take texts out of context.

Such claims by popes have been made, but the meaning is taken completely out of context. Please see this link

catholicpoint.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/pope-claiming-as-god.html?m=1

As for their interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:11, can this person prove their interpretation of this verse is protected by the Holy Spirit? No they can’t. Problem with all these charmers who use scripture to back up their anti-Catholic claims is they act as if they are popes themselves with an infallible gift in interpreting scripture…

 

[howirenic]

All the translations I’ve read don’t render it as a proper “Great Deception,” but rather “great delusion,” i.e. a general state of delusion that will test the faithful. Therefore, it’s pretty silly to try to point out a specific event or institution.

St. Paul is simply saying that Christ’s faithful should stay fast to the truth and not be deceived by false teachings. To read into it any further is prooftexting, as far as I’m concerned.

 

[FJACatholic]

All the translations I’ve read don’t render it as a proper “Great Deception,” but rather “great delusion,” i.e. a general state of delusion that will test the faithful. Therefore, it’s pretty silly to try to point out a specific event or institution.

St. Paul is simply saying that Christ’s faithful should stay fast to the truth and not be deceived by false teachings. To read into it any further is prooftexting, as far as I’m concerned.

Nice, and I agree.
I wish all this could be summed up in 140 characters or less since I wanted to respond to it on twitter, lol… …Ah well.

Thanks again howirenic and may God continue to bless you.

 

[howirenic]

Try this one one for size:

The Pope is “vicar of Christ” because he succeeds Peter, first among apostles. 2 Thes 2:11 warns of general deception, not a specific thing.

 

[Augustine3]

St Thomas Aquinas’ interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:11
*
God will permit the Antichrist, the worker of lies, to come to them*

Before your friend answers that the pope is the Antichrist, that wouldn’t fit in St John’s explanation of the Antichrist:
*
Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. - 1 John 2:22*

Does the pope deny Jesus is the Christ? Does the pope deny the Father and the Son?

 

[FJACatholic]

Try this one one for size:

The Pope is “vicar of Christ” because he succeeds Peter, first among apostles. 2 Thes 2:11 warns of general deception, not a specific thing.

Thanks howirenic, I will

 

[FJACatholic]

St Thomas Aquinas’ interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:11
*
God will permit the Antichrist, the worker of lies, to come to them*

Before your friend answers that the pope is the Antichrist, that wouldn’t fit in St John’s explanation of the Antichrist:
*
Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. - 1 John 2:22*

Does the pope deny Jesus is the Christ? Does the pope deny the Father and the Son?

Great follow up, Augustine3.
I have a feeling too that’s where the discussion is heading.
That guy is going to make an insertion that the Pope is the anti Christ.
I will definitely purpose those questions to him if he does.It’ll make him think for a while.

Thanks for replying.

 

[Qaletaqa]

Why have you posted this thread again with a different title, do you expect different responses

 

[FJACatholic]

Why have you posted this thread again with a different title, do you expect different responses

Did that thread get any responses?
I honestly thought the moderators removed it for possibly lodging it incorrectly.
I couldn’t find it.
Got frustrated and started this one.

I’m going to look for it again.
If it’s there and I find out you didn’t respond to that thread I’m going to be upset

 

[Qaletaqa]

No sorry didn’t respond on both, i could copy and paste a response for you

 

[FJACatholic]

No sorry didn’t respond on both, i could copy and paste a response for you

Lol, no its ok.
Everyone who already responded were all very helpful.
I’m satisfied with the responses I got.

 

[North_of_Nod]

St Thomas Aquinas’ interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:11
*
God will permit the Antichrist, the worker of lies, to come to them*

Before your friend answers that the pope is the Antichrist, that wouldn’t fit in St John’s explanation of the Antichrist:
*
Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. - 1 John 2:22*

Does the pope deny Jesus is the Christ? Does the pope deny the Father and the Son?

Also, I’d link the accuser to the Nicene Creed so he can see for himself what Catholics believe. Hopefully he will see that Christ is the center of our faith. If not, he is unwilling to see.

 

[FJACatholic]

Hello everyone.
I just wanted to give you guys a follow up.

I corrected him that Catholics don’t believe the Pope is " God on Earth." And i pretty much used “The Pope is “vicar of Christ” because he succeeds Peter, first among apostles. 2 Thes 2:11 warns of general deception, not a specific thing” by howirenic.
Thanks howirenic, lol.

His response to me was a website.
Here the link: amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Pope_Rome_blasphemy_power_Jesus

So I then let him know that I read the website where he got his beliefs from.

His response was “I don’t get my beliefs from a website I get them from the Bible”

So i asked him to provide me scripture
His response to that was: “I honestly don’t have the time to dig deep into the scriptures. I was hoping I would but I don’t. BUT tomorrow I am off and I am free. I will definitely be in touch with you tomorrow. But I will leave you with these scriptures to look at. Daniel 7:15-25 and revelation 17.”

So I did read Daniel 7:15-17 and Revelation 17. My question now is. How do we Catholic interpret Daniel 7:15-25 and Revelation 17? Because I’m pretty sure he going to imply Catholics Church is the "Whores of Babylon. "

 

[FJACatholic]

Also, I’d link the accuser to the Nicene Creed so he can see for himself what Catholics believe. Hopefully he will see that Christ is the center of our faith. If not, he is unwilling to see.

I haven’t sent him a link to the Nicene Creed yet but I will:thumbsup:

 

[FJACatholic]

A classic move anti-Catholics make, is take texts out of context.

Such claims by popes have been made, but the meaning is taken completely out of context. Please see this link

catholicpoint.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/pope-claiming-as-god.html?m=1

As for their interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:11, can this person prove their interpretation of this verse is protected by the Holy Spirit? No they can’t. Problem with all these charmers who use scripture to back up their anti-Catholic claims is they act as if they are popes themselves with an infallible gift in interpreting scripture…

Btw, Augustine3.
I did send him that link you gave me, thanks!

 

[howirenic]

So I did read Daniel 7:15-17 and Revelation 17. My question now is. How do we Catholic interpret Daniel 7:15-25 and Revelation 17? Because I’m pretty sure he going to imply Catholics Church is the "Whores of Babylon. "

This is the problem with such an implication; the implier comes in with a presupposition and uses the scripture to support his beliefs. It’s so very easy to pick an Antichrist, whether it’s the Pope, President Obama, Oprah, whoever, and then pick apart the scriptures to build a case for that person.

You can explain to your protestant friend that the Whore of Babylon represents the blasphemous paganism of pre-Christian Rome, and that “Babylon” is a symbolic term meant to designate an unholy culture, i.e. what Rome was to the Jews (including Christian Jews) of the day. Ever listen to reggae music, all that talk about “down with Babylon”? Same idea.

To extrapolate that the person who wrote Revelation was predicting the Roman Catholic Church, a Christian body, is the Antichrist, the Whore of Babylon, would require more faith in the “guiding Spirit” than I think any sane person could muster.

I would ask this person why they think this bible passage is referring to the Church instead of the much more obvious target, the Roman culture that was oppressing and murdering the people of God, Jews and Christians alike.