How would your 'dream church' look like?

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Please, as per the wishes of others, this thread is for discussing what we like, not debates. This debate is fruitless and uncharitable anyway, and I hope we can both learn to deal with fellow Christians in a more loving way at some point, as neither of us are doing a stellar job of that, over something as (relatively) trivial as what a church looks like.
Take your own advice.

There is nothing trivial about how a worship space looks and feels. I am just sick-and-tired of people judging OLAC based not on design or architectural principles but on who its founder is OR because it looks different than what some people believe a church is to look like.

I would however have to say progress has been made. In the past had you brought-up OLAC on CAF, you would have been met with screams of “the titanium temple”, “taj mahony” and “roj mahol”, etc. with absolutely zero substance to back-up the nasty slurs. While there is still little substance, at least the slurs have subsided for the most part and those that attack OLAC grudgingly admit to doing so based on personal preferences.

The only totally classless and crude instance was when someone tried to group OLAC with the nationwide scandal involving children and young teens. That was clearly beyond the pale but it was also clearly pathetic. It required no retort.
 
Our Lady of Peace Parish in Santa Clara, CA

The place is PACKED on Sundays because it’s an oasis of **incredible **orthodoxy. Daily Masses. Perpetual Adoration.

Thanks be to God, it’s also the parish where this convert was catechized and received into Holy Mother Church.

Father John Sweeney (Requiescat in Pace) was the holiest and most kindhearted Priest I’ve ever known.

I live in southern California now and I miss that parish quite a bit!
 
I wish we had a few walled edifices in the USA. There is something about battlements, or even just a substantial brick wall.
I’m reminded of a ship on the ocean or an oasis amidst chaos. Maybe that was the intended effect?
That is the ‘secondary’ effect, I think; originally, the walls served a mundane purpose: they were built to protect the monks from anyone who had come to assault them (Monks in the area were vulnerable to attacks, since they then lived in caves and simple huts), such as marauders and raiding Bedouins. After fourteen centuries, this protective wall around the monastery still stands.

In 628, Muhammad was said to have granted a document (the Charter of Privileges) giving protection to the monks of the monastery when the monks, seeing the rise of Islam in the area, sent a delegation to him in order to secure protection:
This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.
Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.
No compulsion is to be on them.
Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.
No one is to destroy a house of their religion church, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses.
Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.
No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.
The Muslims are to fight for them.
If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.
Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.
No one of the nation is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day."
A mosque was actually built inside the Monastery compound (if you’ll look at the map in one of my former posts) in 1106 to appease the Arabic rulers of Egypt and the Muslim locals who served the monks, but since it was not aligned properly towards Mecca, it was never used.
 
That is the ‘secondary’ effect, I think; originally, the walls served a mundane purpose: they were built to protect the monks from anyone who had come to assault them (Monks in the area were vulnerable to attacks, since they then lived in caves and simple huts), such as marauders and raiding Bedouins. After fourteen centuries, this protective wall around the monastery still stands.

In 628, Muhammad was said to have granted a document (the Charter of Privileges) giving protection to the monks of the monastery when the monks, seeing the rise of Islam in the area, sent a delegation to him in order to secure protection:

A mosque was actually built inside the Monastery compound (if you’ll look at the map in one of my former posts) in 1106 to appease the Arabic rulers of Egypt and the Muslim locals who served the monks, but since it was not aligned properly towards Mecca, it was never used.
Uh, I don’t know why I said that in that way. I know what medieval battlements were for, and they weren’t for decoration. But they sure look neat now.

The info on the mosque was interesting. I wondered why there was a mosque right in the middle of everything. It is like an obstruction. Is it not used at all ? I can’t imagine moslems not being offended at christians walking through at will. But if they aren’t in residence who is there to complain?

which Saint Catherine? Saint Catherine of Alexandria by any chance?
 
Uh, I don’t know why I said that in that way. I know what medieval battlements were for, and they weren’t for decoration. But they sure look neat now.

The info on the mosque was interesting. I wondered why there was a mosque right in the middle of everything. It is like an obstruction. Is it not used at all ? I can’t imagine moslems not being offended at christians walking through at will. But if they aren’t in residence who is there to complain?

which Saint Catherine? Saint Catherine of Alexandria by any chance?
The Monastery was established in between 527 and 565 by order of the Emperor Justinian (the church was built in 548-565), enclosing the Chapel of the Burning Bush ordered to be built by St. Helena (which made this site sacred to Christians and Muslims).

The Monastery was originally dedicated to the Transfiguration (thus the mosaic in the apse; the patronal feast of the monastery is still this feast instead of St. Catherine’s), but it was rededicated to Saint Catherine of Alexandria (d. 4th century) when the monks found her remains in the year 800 (According to tradition, Angels carried her body to Mount Sinai after her martyrdom).

While the monastery is popularly known as St. Catherine’s, the official name of the monastery is ‘The Sacred and Imperial Monastery of the God-Trodden Mount of Sinai’.
 
me? My dream church will look like this:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Church of San Gil, Seville, Spain
“Septenario” of Our Lady of Hope, “Macarena”
 
Interesting, but I am having trouble figuring it out. I take it the altar is to the right, just out of the picture. Maybe the structures to the left are for chanters? The chairs on the right seem to be be for congregants, but they’re turned differently. I have seen monks’ chapels where they have something like “booths” that are turned at right angles to the altar. Is that what this is?
This is a monastery chapel. There is no “congregation” – there is only “choir” (maybe a few benches int he back for “congregaton” – which in this case would be visitors.
 
I guess no one likes St. Catherine’s Monastery. :o
I know someone who lived there for 2 years. It gets to be 130 degrees in the afternoons!

It has the second largest collection of ancient Christian manuscripts in the world (the Vatican is first). Very cool.
 
This one is my favorite, but I’m biased – it’s my parish. 😛

Absolutely no insult intended to the photographer, but the photo doesn’t quite do it justice!
Could you transport it here to Florida? Please? Pretty please? 😛
 
I know someone who lived there for 2 years. It gets to be 130 degrees in the afternoons!

It has the second largest collection of ancient Christian manuscripts in the world (the Vatican is first). Very cool.
Codex Sinaiticus, an uncial manuscript of the Bible written between 330-350, actually came from this Monastery; having been shown to Constantin von Tischendorf (A 19th century German Biblical scholar; his magnum opus is the Critical Edition of the New Testament) at his third trip to the Monastery in 1859; his first two trips yielded parts (supposedly 43 leaves) of the Old Testament, found in a rubbish bin on the way to being burned (recently this story has come into question, as the Codex itself was kept in the library for many years and were recorded in ancient catalogues; it is highly unlikely that someone would mistake pages of a codex recorded in the library’s catalogue for trash. Add to that the fact that the leaves are in a suspiciously good condition for something found in the trash. Thus, either this story was a fabrication, or the discovered pages are unrelated to the Codex). He later found 80 or more leaves, but the monks did not allow him to have or even see them.

He went to the Monastery under the premise of finding manuscripts for Tsar Alexander II, who was convinced there were still manuscripts to be found at the Monastery. (In May 1975, during restoration work, the monks of the monastery discovered a room beneath the St. George Chapel which contained many parchment fragments, among them twelve missing leaves from the Sinaiticus Old Testament).

Tischendorg reached the Monastery on January 31, but all his inquiries had been fruitless and he intended to return home empty-handed on February 4, when:
On the afternoon of this day I was taking a walk with the steward of the convent in the neighbourhood, and as we returned, towards sunset, he begged me to take some refreshment with him in his cell. Scarcely had he entered the room, when, resuming our former subject of conversation, he said: “And I, too, have read a Septuagint”-i.e. a copy of the Greek translation made by the Seventy.
And so saying, he took down from the corner of the room a bulky kind of volume, wrapped up in a red cloth, and laid it before me. I unrolled the cover, and discovered, to my great surprise, not only those very fragments which, fifteen years before, I had taken out of the basket, but also other parts of the Old Testament, the New Testament complete, and, in addition, the Epistle of Barnabas and a part of the Shepherd of Hermas.
After some negotiations, Tischendorf decided to get his hands on the fragments. He contacted the Superior of the Monastery in Cairo, and asked him to let Tischendorf have access to the leaves. Every few weeks, he was lent some of the leaves to copy and then return. He conveyed the existence of the manuscript to Tsar Alexander II, who used his influence to get the codex; he then sent the monastery 9,000 rubles by way of compensation.

For many decades, the Codex was preserved in the Russian National Library but in 1933, the Soviet Union sold the codex to the British Library for £100,000. When parts of Genesis and Numbers were found inside other books, they were sent to Tischendorf.

Presently, the manuscript is divided between the British Library, St. Catherine’s, Leipzig University Library and the National Library of Russia (St. Petersburg).

The monks in the Monastery, however, presently considers the codex to be ‘stolen’ and thus are demanding (and trying) to get it back; a note left by Tischendorf stating his promise to return the codex is kept in a frame and shown at every possible opportunity.
 
Codex Sinaiticus, an uncial manuscript of the Bible written between 330-350, actually came from this Monastery; having been shown to Constantin von Tischendorf (A 19th century German Biblical scholar; his magnum opus is the Critical Edition of the New Testament) at his third trip to the Monastery in 1859; his first two trips yielded parts (supposedly 43 leaves) of the Old Testament, found in a rubbish bin on the way to being burned (recently this story has come into question, as the Codex itself was kept in the library for many years and were recorded in ancient catalogues; it is highly unlikely that someone would mistake pages of a codex recorded in the library’s catalogue for trash. Add to that the fact that the leaves are in a suspiciously good condition for something found in the trash. Thus, either this story was a fabrication, or the discovered pages are unrelated to the Codex). He later found 80 or more leaves, but the monks did not allow him to have or even see them.

He went to the Monastery under the premise of finding manuscripts for Tsar Alexander II, who was convinced there were still manuscripts to be found at the Monastery. (In May 1975, during restoration work, the monks of the monastery discovered a room beneath the St. George Chapel which contained many parchment fragments, among them twelve missing leaves from the Sinaiticus Old Testament).

Tischendorg reached the Monastery on January 31, but all his inquiries had been fruitless and he intended to return home empty-handed on February 4, when:

After some negotiations, Tischendorf decided to get his hands on the fragments. He contacted the Superior of the Monastery in Cairo, and asked him to let Tischendorf have access to the leaves. Every few weeks, he was lent some of the leaves to copy and then return. He conveyed the existence of the manuscript to Tsar Alexander, who used his influence to get the codex; he then sent the monastery 9,000 rubles by way of compensation.

For many decades, the Codex was preserved in the Russian National Library but in 1933, the Soviet Union sold the codex to the British Library for £100,000. When parts of Genesis and Numbers were found inside other books, they were sent to Tischendorf.

Presently, the manuscript is divided between the British Library, St. Catherine’s, Leipzig University Library and the National Library of Russia (St. Petersburg).

The monks in the Monastery, however, presently considers the codex to be ‘stolen’ and thus are demanding (and trying) to get it back; a note left by Tischendorf stating his promise to return the codex is kept in a frame and shown at every possible opportunity.
The Monastery has received a big grant (from a company in the U.S., I think) and high-tech equipment for digitally copying the entire manuscript collection so it can be made available to scholars world wide. 👍

So, no more Tischendorfs!
 
The Monastery has received a big grant (from a company in the U.S., I think) and high-tech equipment for digitally copying the entire manuscript collection so it can be made available to scholars world wide. 👍

So, no more Tischendorfs!
Apparently, you couldn’t trust some people in returning your books if they’ve taken a fancy on it…😛

EDIT: When I first read your former post, I was totally bemused (and quite shocked) when you said that it gets about 130 degrees on the Sinai desert; then I realized that I was thinking in Centigrade scale (130 degrees Fahrenheit would be somewhere around 54.44 degrees Celsius).

That would be VERY hot…:eek:
 
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this is my parish i have always thought it to be one of the most beautiful churches I wish i had better picture of the interior.
 
This is a monastery chapel. There is no “congregation” – there is only “choir” (maybe a few benches int he back for “congregaton” – which in this case would be visitors.
I was in a monastery chapel once and it had that same “feel” about it. I think maybe if I were a monk, I would want it like that. Timeless yet very suggestive of the medieval, functional, spare, serene, ascetic. Really beautiful in that way. It makes one think of certain kinds of monks; Trappists, Carthusians, etc. (Not so much Benedictines who, to me, seem more earthy.)

But I am a married guy with children and so many grandchildren I have trouble keeping count. I like color and, frankly, crowded, animated “family” things. A famous art historian once noted how full older European Catholic churches (as opposed to spare Protestant churches) are of women and “children” in motif. Male saints and Jesus, for sure, but also Our Lady, female saints, baby-faced cherubim all over the place. Lots of “movement”. I realized long ago that I don’t even like paintings that don’t have people in them, and the more the better. The more “active” the better. So I’m kind of inclined to the Baroque and Rococco. I spend a lot of time outdoors. Always have. Lots of Mediterranean styles appeal to me as well. I like sunshiny brightness with my cherubim, stautes, mosaics and paintings. A few grapes and ears of wheat in the artwork only adds to the whole.

But you know, when it’s late, and when all the little ones are in bed and it’s all quiet and full of repose, a spot of light on a good book or over a quiet conversation, is nice. There is nothing quite so spiritually reposeful either, as a quiet church lit only by a spot over the tabernacle and flickering vigil lights. Then, those statues and mosaic figures and paintings, so “loud” and “active” during the day, all stand watch, it seems, silently hearing and understanding. Brings to mind the “Communion of Saints”, or at least it does to me.

I think maybe people are attracted, in Church design and decor, to the things and themes to which they are also attracted in everyday life. I think “ethnic” churches often express much about the way those groups think and how they see life.

With absolute certainty, Eastern Catholic churches express their own spirituality and mysticism; that sense of being “drawn to heaven”, particularly through the portals of the large-eyed, overwhelming paintings or mosaics. (As well as utterly hypnotic hymns and incense) I think that’s what all the gold and jewels are about too; the incredibly ornate vestments. It’s not for ostentation. It’s to make us think of our real home. It’s almost like an invitation.

We “Latins” are a bit more earthy in our way of thinking of our lives and our relationship with the Divine. We are a bit less mystical, rather more comfortable, spiritually, in our humanness and in our “here-ness”. It is for that reason that, particularly in Renaissance church art, but also in Stations of the Cross and the crosses above the altar, to this day, there are figures with realistically bulging muscles, straining to do this or that; body “movement” that looks real, and figures that are realistic to the point that Easterners likely wonder what we’re thinking. We, much more than they, bring our “outside” world into the churches. Their churches tend more to bring them “inside” a very different world from what is outside the church portals; another dimension, really.

But I don’t have a problem with either, if done well and with insight. Each is beautiful and “resonates” with our souls, though in different ways.
 
I was in a monastery chapel once and it had that same “feel” about it. I think maybe if I were a monk, I would want it like that. Timeless yet very suggestive of the medieval, functional, spare, serene, ascetic. Really beautiful in that way. It makes one think of certain kinds of monks; Trappists, Carthusians, etc. (Not so much Benedictines who, to me, seem more earthy.)
Bingo! This is the chapel of New Melleray Abbey – Trappist.
 
Thank you. But I’m still not sure what part of it is the church. Perhaps the building more or less in the center next to the near wall?
The chapel is the building with the copper roof and the bell tower at the right/front.
 
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