Hugging or kisses spouses during mass

[zab]

I can’t be the only one who remembers the sign of peace as the kiss of peace.
Pre-Vatican II and still in certain instances, the kiss of peace was/is part of the liturgy.
It was exchanged between priests and deacons on the altar in view of all.

It is used still by the bishop who ordains to the ordinands.
How did this practice ever become “questionable” to anyone?

Here is a very good article explaining about the Kiss of Peace and how it is done in the monastery. Edmund Waldstein, O.Cist*.* says, * In our abbey we found a good way of doing it in monastic liturgy, but we have yet to find a comparably satisfactory way for the parishes.*
newliturgicalmovement.org/2007/10/nlm-guest-article-kiss-of-peace-in.html

 

[benedictgal]

My point exactly.
It was and it is a holy tradition.
I recall when the OF began, there was very little “socializing” at the sign of peace.

What we also tend to forget is that it should be brief. If you notice, the sign of peace is not a very long ritual during Papal Masses, and, mind you, you have anywhere from tens of thousands to a couple of million faithful in attendance.

 

[JimG]

My point exactly.
It was and it is a holy tradition.
I recall when the OF began, there was very little “socializing” at the sign of peace.

The link posted by Zab shows how the kiss of peace is done at the monastery. It is really more of a bow.
newliturgicalmovement.org/2007/10/nlm-guest-article-kiss-of-peace-in.html

 

[RB2]

only one further note, the kiss of peace (or culturally appropriate gesture of peace) is supposed to be extended to those around us, but what I see here is that the family exhanges hugs and kisses, but often makes no gesture at all to other unrelated people around them, which kind of defeats the meaning. This can and does, because people speak about it all the time especially RCIA members, leave widowed and single people, visitors or new people feeling left out. Folks will even run out of the pew to hug other relatives, ignoring anyone else they pass.

My sentiments exactly.

The sign of peace is an abbreviated period of time and meant as an outreach not an inreach to your family.
Some people use all the time with displays of affection to their family first, and keep others on a limb. When I see this , more times than not, I prudentially turn back around. I’m not waiting for these people, but if you do then an additional wait is when they turn to the people behind them instead of me…it just keeps going on. The sign of a peace is not meant to go on interminably for these kind of waits. Of course, we all know the long lovefests that go on in some parishes.

My fiancee and I , as a rule, do outreach first(we mostly do bows/smiles) during this period and occasionally we embrace or hold hands after we’re done with our outreach.

Smart and loving families and couples should do outreach first, then display affection/sign of peace to their family secondarily.

 

[zab]

The way that the kiss of peace was done at the altar by the celebrants is not questionable at all. Perhaps the congregation could do it in the same way as those celebrants.

I believe that there is a problem in trying to find a suitable way to make this work for the faithful. Otherwise we would have been instructed on how to do it by now. Unlike monasteries, the parish congregation is made up of all sorts of different situations, and people of every age, including small children that need to be tended to.

 

[LittleSoldier]

This is an important point. One purpose of the Mass is to place you into the presence of the transcendent God. The time before Mass is vitally important to remove you from the realm of the profane and draw you into the realm of the sacred. My wife’s Anglican parish is a greet-and-meet church where it’s a big free-for-all before the service. There is no opportunity to collect your thoughts, pray, or meditate. I thought it was a distinctly “Protestant” thing until I attended Mass at a Catholic parish that I don’t frequently attend, and it was the same thing. On the other hand, at my home parish, people pray quietly before Mass and at the Benedictine abbey where I normally attend, I tend to spend the time in adoration before the Blessed Sacrament at the side chapel for that purpose but the church itself is also quiet.

At the weekday Mass I attend frequently at St Joseph’s Oratory in Montreal (at 7 am) it is very quiet before Mass and I usually read the Office of Readings in the half-hour before Mass.
In short, I agree with you completely that the church should be quiet at all times; it is a sacred place, not the bingo hall.

Oh, how I respectfully disagree! We have the choice of two Masses in my parish; one on Saturday night and one on Sunday (we have one priest who is also the only priest in another parish).

On Saturday night there is music and singing, both in Latin and in English, guitars, flutes, and keyboard. On Sunday there may be singing and someone might play the organ, but there is no choir.

To me Saturday night is so much better. Maybe to you it is noise - to me it is a joyful noise made unto the Lord. The singing and the musicians bring it all together into one holy, joyous celebration. When I go to Mass on Saturday I end up asking God to take me home right then and there. I’ve never felt so involved in the Mass as I do with all the “noise.”

There is no bingo playing in the church. There is no coffee or donuts. There is respectful, joyful praying, some of which is put to music. And at the Sign of Peace, even if I am alone and am not approached by anyone, I have absolutely no problem with people talking to each other. I think the Sign of Peace is a wonderful part of the Mass and I hope it is never removed.

I think maybe I started going off on a tangent there for a bit. Sorry.

 

[chaunceygardner]

The problem with this “meet and greet” issue, as I have experienced it, is that it sets us off on the wrong foot. The Mass is not about us; it is about God. The time before Mass should be set aside for interior prayer, recollection and preparation for the sacred mysteries that are about to unfold before us. When we have this “meet and greet” scenario, it turns into something noisy and it’s not the most conducive environment for beginnig something sacred. If we want to be welcoming, we could very well do this at coffee and donuts after Mass.

The “greeting and welcome” times before Mass that I have seen have not been noisy, and they are short, less than a minute. Anyone wanting to have quiet, prayerful time before Mass certainly has it. Once the entrance hymn is introduced and the music starts, the focus returns to the Mass itself. But this is a faith community, not a gathering of individuals. It is the body of Christ. Welcoming each other prior to Mass to me sets the tone for who we are and what the gathering is. We are not alone with God, we are joined with each other and with Him. The Sign of Peace later then helps us to realize and express that we are more than individuals and strangers, but are all members of the same “family”. You are no longer just my neighbor or someone who happens to be near me; you are now my friend in Christ, joined with God and each other in the Eucharist.

I wonder if in the early church, when the Eucharist was celebrated as a common meal in a home, if everyone entered in silence, not greeting and welcoming each other? I would find that hard to believe. I would imagine that, given the circumstances they were in as an often persecuted pilgrim church, they would joyously greet each other, thankful for the love and support they were receiving from their neighbors, their brothers and sisters in Christ.

Jesus made it abundantly clear, through his actions and words, that His church would be communal. We shouldn’t pray or worship or seek the Kingdom of God in a total vacuum. Christ is not just in the Eucharist, He resides in everyone around you. To not strongly acknowledge that and demonstrate it in the re-creation of the greatest communal meal in history seems like a denial of what Jesus would expect from us.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I talked to a married friend this morning and asked her what she does during the Sign of Peace when her husband is at Mass with her. She said they kiss (a peck) but that happens only after she has given the Sign of Peace to the people around her.

I have to admit I’ve never seen this done myself, but I think this is an excellent idea. My friend said that many times there is a person next to her who has come to Mass alone. She feels a responsibility to do what she can to ensure that person is included during the Mass.

I think this is great.

 

[LittleSoldier]

The “greeting and welcome” times before Mass that I have seen have not been noisy, and they are short, less than a minute. Anyone wanting to have quiet, prayerful time before Mass certainly has it. Once the entrance hymn is introduced and the music starts, the focus returns to the Mass itself. But this is a faith community, not a gathering of individuals. It is the body of Christ. Welcoming each other prior to Mass to me sets the tone for who we are and what the gathering is. We are not alone with God, we are joined with each other and with Him. The Sign of Peace later then helps us to realize and express that we are more than individuals and strangers, but are all members of the same “family”. You are no longer just my neighbor or someone who happens to be near me; you are now my friend in Christ, joined with God and each other in the Eucharist.

I wonder if in the early church, when the Eucharist was celebrated as a common meal in a home, if everyone entered in silence, not greeting and welcoming each other? I would find that hard to believe. I would imagine that, given the circumstances they were in as an often persecuted pilgrim church, they would joyously greet each other, thankful for the love and support they were receiving from their neighbors, their brothers and sisters in Christ.

Jesus made it abundantly clear, through his actions and words, that His church would be communal. We shouldn’t pray or worship or seek the Kingdom of God in a total vacuum. Christ is not just in the Eucharist, He resides in everyone around you. To not strongly acknowledge that and demonstrate it in the re-creation of the greatest communal meal in history seems like a denial of what Jesus would expect from us.

 

[benedictgal]

The “greeting and welcome” times before Mass that I have seen have not been noisy, and they are short, less than a minute. Anyone wanting to have quiet, prayerful time before Mass certainly has it. Once the entrance hymn is introduced and the music starts, the focus returns to the Mass itself. But this is a faith community, not a gathering of individuals. It is the body of Christ. Welcoming each other prior to Mass to me sets the tone for who we are and what the gathering is. We are not alone with God, we are joined with each other and with Him. The Sign of Peace later then helps us to realize and express that we are more than individuals and strangers, but are all members of the same “family”. You are no longer just my neighbor or someone who happens to be near me; you are now my friend in Christ, joined with God and each other in the Eucharist.

I wonder if in the early church, when the Eucharist was celebrated as a common meal in a home, if everyone entered in silence, not greeting and welcoming each other? I would find that hard to believe. I would imagine that, given the circumstances they were in as an often persecuted pilgrim church, they would joyously greet each other, thankful for the love and support they were receiving from their neighbors, their brothers and sisters in Christ.

Jesus made it abundantly clear, through his actions and words, that His church would be communal. We shouldn’t pray or worship or seek the Kingdom of God in a total vacuum. Christ is not just in the Eucharist, He resides in everyone around you. To not strongly acknowledge that and demonstrate it in the re-creation of the greatest communal meal in history seems like a denial of what Jesus would expect from us.

The Mass is more than a communal-meal. I think that there is a severe misunderstanding here. The Mass is the Holy Sacrifice. It is the point at which heaven and earth intersect. At the Mass, the veil between heaven and earth and time and space is lifted and we are in the very presence of the divine Majesty of God. To do something mundane and vulgar as a meet and greet before the Mass begins is to completely miss the point as to why we are there.

It seems to me that we place more emphasis on the community than we do on God. There is a time for socializing and talking, but, that should not happen before the Mass begins. Sadly, when Archbishop Ranjinth was making his address and touching on these issues, there were a couple of women who left because they did not like the fact that he was advocating having dignity and solemnity and setting the proper tone even before Mass begins.

To harken back to the early days of the Church is to tread dangerously into the waters of antiquarianism. If we held that they merely considered the Eucharist to be a common meal, then we have missed the point. Do you not realize that attending the sacred liturgy carried with it an automatic death sentence? If the early Church merely relegated the Eucharist to a communal meal, then what was the point of someone like St. Tarcisus giving his life to protect the Blessed Sacrament if he did not hold this to be sacred?

There is a sad trend here to steer things towards the horizontal. Think of the Mass as a cross. The shorter arm is horizontal, but, the longer one is vertical.

 

[mick321]

…

The reason why I’m posting actually, is to aks whether you know what are the norms (if any) for the Tridentine Mass. I’ll admit to having never attended one yet (I wish to actually, but I just haven’t been able to ). Does tradition fill in the void found in the GRIM? Or are the Ruberics actually different (at all?) due to it being a different mass? I guess for me this would really help clarify the matter.
…

During a EF Mass, items shown here in bold print are either spoken or sung in Latin.

In the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Liturgy, the priest recites the [25] Pater Noster alone in a clear voice, to which the faithful respond:***But deliver us from evil.
***The priest says:Amen.
The priest proceeds directly to the [26] Libera Nos, the Fractioning of the Host and the [27] Commingling of the Sacred Body and Blood. He makes the sign of the cross three times over the chalice with the Particle saying:***May the peace of the Lord be always with you.***The faithful respond:***And with your spirit.
***He places the Particle in the chalice, saying in a low voice:***May this mingling of the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ avail us who receive It unto life everlasting. Amen.***The priest covers the chalice, genuflects, rises, and bowing to the Blessed Sacrament, with hands joined, and striking his breast three times, recites in a clear voice the [28] Agnus Dei.***Agnus Dei…
***The [29] Prayers for Holy Communion begin with the [29a] Prayer for Peace. Placing his joined hands upon the altar and bowing, the priest says the following prayer in a low voice:***O Lord Jesus Christ, Who didst say to Thy Apostles, peace I leave with you, My peace I give unto you: regard not my sins, but the faith of Thy Church, and vouchsafe to her that peace and unity which is agreeable to Thy will. Who livist and reignest, God, for ever and ever. Amen.
***In Solemn Mass, except Masses for the Dead, the kiss of peace is now given. The Priest kisses the altar, then saluting the Deacon, says:Peace be with thee.
To which the Deacon responds:***And with thy spirit.
***The priest proceeds directly into the [29b] Prayer for Sanctification, [28c] Prayer for Grace, and [30] Prayers at the Communion, and on through to the end of the Mass.

---

At no point during the EF/TLM are the faithful invited to exchange a vocal or hands-on “sign of peace” among each other. The practice was brought into Catholic use shortly after the invention of the Novus Ordo Mass. It never made its way into the Extraordinary Form.

It is my understanding the General Instruction of the Roman Missal was first issued in 1969 to govern the celebration of the OF/NovusOrdo mass. As such, it did not apply to the EF/TLM which is offered directly from the 1962 Roman Missal.
.

 

[zab]

The problem with the Sign of Peace is that people have forgotten what it’s all about, and instead have turned it into a “this works for me” moment.

This is NOT the time to express personal relationships. It is a symbolic gesture, and it is a communal moment in the Mass. If one exchanges the sign-of-peace with friends or relatives any differently than with complete strangers (or for that matter, someone you don’t like very much), then the whole meaning has been lost.

Personally, I am of the opinion that this has gone so far astray from the true purpose in the Mass that, unfortunately, it should probably be dropped altogether.

I happen to agree with you that the Sign of Peace as it is now being done should probably be dropped. I just don’t like the blame game. There is plenty of blame to go around for how this mess got started. Neither myself nor my husband took it upon ourself to initiate the kiss as the Sign of Peace. And we have never intended it to be anything other than a sign of peace before receiving Holy Communion. For us, this began years ago when the pastor of the church we used to attend made the comment that it was silly for a person to shake hands with their spouse. He said it was perfectly OK to kiss your spouse at the Sign of Peace. I have never been aware of any instruction or clarification stating that this was not appropriate. Only recently have I read some good articles that explain what the Sign of Peace is really all about. After reading it, I became more aware of the need for a better way for the faithful to participate in the Sign of Peace. But as I stated before, I believe this would be difficult because of the many different situations among the faithful. Perhaps it is best that the ritual among the faithful be dropped.

 

[RB2]

The half hour before mass is reserved for silent prayer.
I’ve read it many times, I belive its in the GIRM.

However, you can add it to another one of the items that the priests dont enforce or care about and you get these endless debates on here where
people try to define what they think it should be off of insufficient markers of information. Like the early church house meetings or what feels good.

 

[RB2]

The problem with this “meet and greet” issue, as I have experienced it, is that it sets us off on the wrong foot. The Mass is not about us; it is about God. The time before Mass should be set aside for interior prayer, recollection and preparation for the sacred mysteries that are about to unfold before us. When we have this “meet and greet” scenario, it turns into something noisy and it’s not the most conducive environment for beginnig something sacred. If we want to be welcoming, we could very well do this at coffee and donuts after Mass.

The ‘meet & greet’ at the beginning of mass is also not much different in character than the ‘sign of peace’. Sort of gets done twice. Which I find rather annoying to be expected to shake hands but its not really a ‘meet’ in
real sense of the word–you dont get their names and exchange true niceties. I’d rather this be reserved for the coffee&donuts in the bungalow.

 

[pnewton]

The half hour before mass is reserved for silent prayer.
I’ve read it many times, I belive its in the GIRM.

That’s rather impossible when one only has fifteen minutes between Masses. I will have to look up the reference and see it this is true.

 

[pnewton]

I’d rather this be reserved for the coffee&donuts in the bungalow.

Great idea. I’ll hit the priest up about us opening a Starbuck’s on Church property outside the front door.

 

[pnewton]

Okay. Here is what I think I will take away from this discussion. I can not bring myself to shake hands with my wife. That is just too weird. However, as a family I think we can agree to make sure that we offer peace to those around us first, and not to each other, unless there is a need, or we are alone. I especially will make sure that all three of us will offer peace to those who are by themselves or seem to feel left out.

Now, considering in ten seconds I will start the intro to the Agnus Dei, sometimes our “Peace” will be a nod and mouthing the word. I love my wife dearly and she is a heck of a good partner when it comes to reaching out to others. Then when we exit I will buy her a venti latte and the parish Starbucks.

 

[crazzeto]

mick321,

Thanks so much for answering my question. I guess that really doesn’t settle anything for me lol. I guess my problem is that my family expects a more intamite greating, not to do so would actually cause a scandal within the family. And they already think I’m a religious wack job as it is

 

[RB2]

GIRM 45

Silence

1. Sacred silence also, as part of the celebration, is to be observed at the designated times.54 Its purpose, however, depends on the time it occurs in each part of the celebration. Thus within the Act of Penitence and again after the invitation to pray, all recollect themselves; but at the conclusion of a reading or the homily, all meditate briefly on what they have heard; then after Communion, they praise and pray to God in their hearts.

Even before the celebration itself, it is commendable that silence to be observed in the church, in the sacristy, in the vesting room, and in adjacent areas, so that all may dispose themselves to carry out the sacred action in a devout and fitting manner.

Obviously the time span is a little iffy for silence before mass.
A min. of 15 minutes before is not out of the question, I’ve heard 1/2 hour many times.
It may be a bishop thing!

 

[pnewton]

GIRM 45
Obviously the time span is a little iffy for silence before mass.
A min. of 15 minutes before is not out of the question, I’ve heard 1/2 hour many times.
It may be a bishop thing!

Thank you.