Hugh Nibley- Child Abuse?

[Pahoran]

Do Most Mormons hate her? Hmmmm…Probably about as much as most Catholics hate the victims of sexual abuse by Catholic clergy who tell about their experiences…In other words NO!
Annie

Hi Annie,

I don’t know any Latter-day Saint who “hates” Martha. To be frank, most people I know have never even heard of her. I’m aware that some of her family are upset about the contents of her book.

This is not to say that she has a large fan club among fair-minded people; after all, she did kidnap her nonagenarian father straight out of hospital (he’d gone there with chest pains) and confine him in a hotel room while she tried (unsuccessfully) to browbeat a confession out of him regarding her “recovered” memories.

This is hardly an admirable act. In fact, it’s the only proven instance of abuse in her entire book.

But “hate?” Not at all. Actually I rather suspect that TikiTokiguy is indulging in a charming little polemical trick called “poisoning the well.” This was first identified by Cardinal Newman, which makes it a suitable subject for a Catholic forum.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[Catholic20064]

I was browsing books on amazon and I looked up some ex-Mormon books. I found a book by a Martha Beck. I read she is the daughter of Hugh Nibley. The reviews said she claimed
her dad, Hugh Nibley, sexually molested her.

Wow. I had no idea or never heard this story. When I punch in Fawn Brodie there is a site,
fawnbrodie.com/brodie/ and it takes you to writings by Hugh Nibley. I find that disgusting. Anyway, the great Mormon defender is a child molester? Do most LDS deny
this accusation? I feel sorry for Martha Beck.

Do most Mormons hate her? Like Fawn Brodie, she sounds like a true brave person.

amazon.com/Leaving-Saints-Mormons-Found-Faith/dp/0307335992/ref=pd_sim_b_5

Martha Beck always appeared to me to be slightly crazy. I never trusted what she had to say about these things. As I remember the rest of her family doesn’t either. The recovered memories stuff is always a stretch to me.

 

[Catholic20064]

Do Most Mormons hate her? Hmmmm…Probably about as much as most Catholics hate the victims of sexual abuse by Catholic clergy who tell about their experiences…In other words NO!
Annie

When I was LDS, I kind of felt sorry for her. She seemed to be slightly off her rocker. The recovered memories gig is probably pretty profitable for some psychiatrists and lawyers. I once had a dream in which Christ came to me and told me He loved me. It seemed very real, but it was only a dream, not something which was a physical reality. I suspect the same kind of thing could be at work in recovered memories. Whatever the case, I don’t trust that sort of psychiatry at all.

 

[SirThomasMore]

I have been aware of this story since it first appeared.

There are a number of serious evidentiary problems with Ms. Beck’s claims. Sunstone, which is largely a forum for disaffected and/or fringe Mormon views, reviewed her book and gave it a pasting. Anyone wanting to dismiss them as being merely “Mormon apologists” will be doing so from a position of complete ignorance.

 

[Returning_Home]

It doesn’t.

“Recovered memories” as most people use the term are memories brought out by therapy. This is not the experience of Beck.

And that’s the reason I used the term if. Up to this point, I’d never heard of any such allegations. Even if it were true, I wouldn’t use it as a basis for arguing that Mormonism is wrong; there’s plenty of evidence of Smith’s charlatanry to bear that out.

 

[Eliza10]

Sir Thomas More, thanks for your reasonable defense here by way of your expert knowledge of abuse cases - expert knowledge lacked by Soren and of course obvious others here. I cringe when I see victims being accused of craziness, as that is what perpetrators of all manners of abuse do - accuse their victims of craziness. And there are alway plenty of the ingorant and uninformed bystanders who jump right on that accusor’s bandwagon (which includes, of course, those willing to defend their coveted positons at anyone’s expense).

I am reminded of Patty Bond’s story - anyone else reminded of that?? So many paralellels here. I guess Soren you are not familiar with that story, or any other such story. You might want to read her story.

But think of what you said, Soren, of this case. The motives are clear for why Becks father and the family would vehemently deny such accusations - and its so totally typical for the accused and the denying family members to unite against the one who exposes such unsavory family news, as SirThomasMore [and whats with the other poster’s weird “Cromwell” name instead of More?? Some kind of stupid dig?] pointed out from his very real experience. But what motive in the world would Beck have for publicly making up such a story involving such an embarassing happening to herself? Really! * True* attention seekers make up things like “I saw an angel!” or, “I found golden tablets, but you can’t see them or you will die!”.

People don’t draw that kind of attention to themselves unless some greater ideal of justice and truth supercedes their own sense of personal self-protection. I hope expert witnesses like SirThomasMore’s here have you rethinking you judgements, Soren.

 

[Eliza10]

… By the same token, one can have no mental illness and do something like tell a person he is on ignore, then continually respond to his posts…

 

[Pahoran]

Sir Thomas More, thanks for your reasonable defense here by way of your expert knowledge of abuse cases - expert knowledge lacked by Soren and of course obvious others here. I cringe when I see victims being accused of craziness, as that is what perpetrators of all manners of abuse do - accuse their victims of craziness. And there are alway plenty of the ingorant and uninformed bystanders who jump right on that accusor’s bandwagon (which includes, of course, those willing to defend their coveted positons at anyone’s expense).

OTOH, there are also always plenty of ignorant and uninformed bystanders who jump right on the first accuser’s bandwagon.

Child molestation is to the 21st century what “witchcraft” was to the 16th. Some people assume that the mere uttering of an accusation is tantamount to proof.

It is not.

The accused person is just as entitled to the presumption of innocence as is a person accused of any other crime.

There is, of course, no possibility of external evidence to settle the matter one way or another, which is why it is entirely appropriate to scrutinise the credibility of the accuser.

Her credibility does not stand up to scrutiny. Sorry.

I am reminded of Patty Bond’s story - anyone else reminded of that?? So many paralellels here. I guess Soren you are not familiar with that story, or any other such story. You might want to read her story.

I’ll see your Patty Bond and raise you Peter Ellis. You can read about his case here.

But think of what you said, Soren, of this case. The motives are clear for why Becks father and the family would vehemently deny such accusations - and its so totally typical for the accused and the denying family members to unite against the one who exposes such unsavory family news, as SirThomasMore pointed out from his very real experience.

Oddly enough, it is also typical for the families of wrongly accused people to deny the accusations. Their denial of the accusations is not a point in their favour.

And this case has features that are quite unlike SirThomasMore’s “very real experience.” The large Nibley family (eight children, a number any Catholic family would be proud of) lived in a small three-bedroom house. The alleged abuse allegedly occurred over a period of years, mostly late at night, in the small bedroom Martha shared with her two sisters. Martha slept on the top bunk, her younger sister on the bottom bunk, and the older sister in a single bed. The older sister was a very light sleeper.

If the alleged abuse had happened, there is no way the other two sisters could have been unaware of it.

But they deny that it happened.

But what motive in the world would Beck have for publicly making up such a story involving such an embarassing happening to herself? Really! * True* attention seekers make up things like “I saw an angel!” or, “I found golden tablets, but you can’t see them or you will die!”.

Ah. A cheap shot.

How surprising.

Or something.

The fact is, Eliza, that you don’t know what you’re talking about. I suggest you google “Münchausen syndrome.” You might learn something about “True attention seekers.”

People don’t draw that kind of attention to themselves unless some greater ideal of justice and truth supercedes their own sense of personal self-protection. I hope expert witnesses like SirThomasMore’s here have you rethinking you judgements, Soren.

SirThomasMore, just like yourself, appeals to other cases and tries to argue from analogy. Hugh Nibley’s defenders can point to evidentiary problems in the accusation at hand, and with credibility problems of the present accuser.

Which is more relevant?

Imagine for a minute that the accused person was not a Mormon. Might that help you to weigh both sides of the question more fairly?

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[soren1]

I once prosecuted a guy for abusing his daughter. His wife denied it, the girl’s sister denied it. After he was convicted, the wife and daughter admitted they had known.

I also defended a guy once who sexuallly abused his daughter. His wife denied it over and over. The guy horribly failed a polygraph and did even worse on a penile plethysmograph. After both those tests (the Prosecutor was not aware we did those) the wife finally confessed she knew he was doing it and he finally agreed to plea guilty.

So, the denials by the family mean little to me

I clearly must defer to your experience here, but I have some questions. What do you make of the fact that her ex-husband is on the same page with the rest of the family rather than with her? I have never cared much about her mother and siblings, but the agreement that exists between them and her John Beck is more important to my doubts about her story.

Also, what do you make of the presence of other problematic, falsifiable claims in her book, such as when she says that references to Sonia Johnson were expunged from the BYU library, even in the microfilm section?

 

[Pahoran]

Okay TikiTokiguy, now I know where you are coming from.

I was browsing books on amazon and I looked up some ex-Mormon books. I found a book by a Martha Beck. I read she is the daughter of Hugh Nibley. The reviews said she claimed
her dad, Hugh Nibley, sexually molested her.

So she did. Interestingly, it’s a bit difficult to get a handle on what she’s actually claiming. Many reviewers think her father was dressed in Egyptian garb on one of the occasions, but she doesn’t seem to be sure about whether that really happened, or if she just imagined it. This is hardly surprising, because at times she seems to have similar doubts about the whole abuse thing.

But I think I know where the bit about her father in Egyptian garb came from. A number of years ago, a major Egyptological collection was touring the US. Around the time it got to BYU, the student newspaper Daily Universe printed a cartoon of Nibley wearing Tutankhamen’s headdress on the front page. Martha took that image and somehow worked it into her personal experience. Those who uncritically accept her story never seem to wonder about the logistical difficulty of getting an authentic Amut-the-destroyer costume; or ask what happened to it afterwards, etc. The whole story reeks of the “Satanic ritual abuse” hysteria of the 80’s and 90’s.

Incidentally, Martha claims that because of that experience (or whatever it was) she had a lifelong aversion to Egyptian things and couldn’t look at anything Egyptian without feeling ill. Yet she helped illustrate an Egyptological book her father wrote.

Funny, that.

Wow. I had no idea or never heard this story. When I punch in Fawn Brodie there is a site,
fawnbrodie.com/brodie/ and it takes you to writings by Hugh Nibley. I find that disgusting.

The two things are unrelated.

And I find defaming the dead with unprovable accusations to be disgusting.

Anyway, the great Mormon defender is a child molester? Do most LDS deny
this accusation?

Only the informed ones.

I feel sorry for Martha Beck.

Of course you do.

Do most Mormons hate her?

Most Mormons have never met her; most have never even heard of her. How could they hate her?

Like Fawn Brodie, she sounds like a true brave person.

This appears to be a popular ex-Mormon schtick these days. Exactly how “brave” a person has to be to leave a small, unpopular religion and align oneself with “respectable” mainstream opinion is not clear to me, but I suppose it must represent the summit of ex-Mormon courage.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[soren1]

Sir Thomas More, thanks for your reasonable defense here by way of your expert knowledge of abuse cases - expert knowledge lacked by Soren and of course obvious others here. I cringe when I see victims being accused of craziness, as that is what perpetrators of all manners of abuse do - accuse their victims of craziness. And there are alway plenty of the ingorant and uninformed bystanders who jump right on that accusor’s bandwagon (which includes, of course, those willing to defend their coveted positons at anyone’s expense).

I think that SirThomasMore’s points are all worth taking into account. I would readily grant for instance that abuse allegations are rarely false. But let me also point out that I am not arguing from hearsay altogether. I have emphasized not the mere fact that others in Martha Beck’s family deny her allegations, but that they are able to point to specific instances of factual misrepresentation in her accounts, and because there is consistency in their stories. Consider the example of John Beck’s differing account of his mother’s bahavior after he left the Mormon Church. That is a concrete, specific kind of claim.

I am reminded of Patty Bond’s story - anyone else reminded of that?? So many paralellels here. I guess Soren you are not familiar with that story, or any other such story. You might want to read her story.

I do not know of Patty Bond, but why do you assume that I must be totally ignorant of all such stories to hold the position I do? Have I demonstrated in that past a tendency to make big claims about subjects that I know literally zero about? If not, then you are making an evidence-free assumption about me on the basis only of your own prejudice. That being the case, it is not my credibility that is called into question.

For the record, I once had a friend who turned out to be a serial rapist. People who loved him defended him, but I am glad I believed the girl who first told me what he had done to her.

But think of what you said, Soren, of this case. The motives are clear for why Becks father and the family would vehemently deny such accusations - and its so totally typical for the accused and the denying family members to unite against the one who exposes such unsavory family news, as SirThomasMore [and whats with the other poster’s weird “Cromwell” name instead of More?? Some kind of stupid dig?] pointed out from his very real experience. But what motive in the world would Beck have for publicly making up such a story involving such an embarassing happening to herself? Really! * True* attention seekers make up things like “I saw an angel!” or, “I found golden tablets, but you can’t see them or you will die!”.

People don’t draw that kind of attention to themselves unless some greater ideal of justice and truth supercedes their own sense of personal self-protection.

It is very easy to ascribe motives to anyone involved. It would not take much imagination to find bad motives for Martha Beck to invent a story. That is why the best route is to look at the actual contents of the people’s testimony and use that the gauge their credibility. That is why things like her claims about the BYU library are important.

I hope expert witnesses like SirThomasMore’s here have you rethinking you judgements, Soren.

I am not closed to anything SirThomasMore might say about abuse cases in general.

 

[soren1]

She claimed that her father molested her repeatedly over a period of years, in a small bedroom that she shared with her two sisters. She, incidentally, slept on the top bunk and one of her sisters on the bottom bunk. It is highly unlikely that this could have gone on – for years – without being detected. Both of her sisters say that her story is bunk.

I am on your side here, but I don’t think that this is a good argument. All is proves is that it would have been difficult for her father to do it, not that he couldn’t have. Any villian can come up with a plan though.

Having said that, I think the point about the BYU library is very good, particularly since it can be tested reliably against actual library records and patron usage.

 

[SirThomasMore]

I have been aware of this story since it first appeared.

There are a number of serious evidentiary problems with Ms. Beck’s claims. Sunstone, which is largely a forum for disaffected and/or fringe Mormon views, reviewed her book and gave it a pasting. Anyone wanting to dismiss them as being merely “Mormon apologists” will be doing so from a position of complete ignorance.

 

[SirThomasMore]

I am on your side here, but I don’t think that this is a good argument. All is proves is that it would have been difficult for her father to do it, not that he couldn’t have. Any villian can come up with a plan though.

Having said that, I think the point about the BYU library is very good, particularly since it can be tested reliably against actual library records and patron usage.

I would agree with you if not for the fact that the Church is very good when it comes to altering records. I direct you to the investigation of the Mark Hoffman Case.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Child molestation is to the 21st century what “witchcraft” was to the 16th. Some people assume that the mere uttering of an accusation is tantamount to proof.

 

[soren1]

Pahoran;6936113:

How do we know they saw the same exact periodicals?

Beck claims that all periodical referencing Sonia Johnson whatsoever were removed, even to the point that mircoform was edited to remove all references. The researcher to whom Pahoran refers gives his evidence here: pacumenispages.yuku.com/topic/8063. If you can respond to that, it will be important.

Wrong. Not sure where you are getting your info. I have prosecuted cases like this where either it WAS undetected, or the others werte too afraid to say anything. I had a case where a sister denied over and oever that it happened, only to discover that she had also been molested.

Agreed.

irrelevant

Agreed.

And? When I left the Church, some mormons tried to kidnap my children. Other ex-LDS have similar stories of harrassment and/or attacks.

My wife participated passively in similar activities when she was a Church member, though she suffered little herself when she left.

Wow…so those are your only options? she is lying or crazy? It seems your bias makes you unwilling to consider other options

I’m afraid C.S. Lewis’s “Lunatic, Liar, or Lord?” evaluation of Jesus makes the same error … What if he was just mistaken?

 

[SirThomasMore]

I clearly must defer to your experience here, but I have some questions. What do you make of the fact that her ex-husband is on the same page with the rest of the family rather than with her? I have never cared much about her mother and siblings, but the agreement that exists between them and her John Beck is more important to my doubts about her story.

Also, what do you make of the presence of other problematic, falsifiable claims in her book, such as when she says that references to Sonia Johnson were expunged from the BYU library, even in the microfilm section?

First, let me say again I have no idea if she is truthful or not. My purpose is to show the fallacy of the arguments of people here with no experience who jump on the Nibley bandwagon just because he is a famous mormon. As to EX-Husband, let me say this…I have been an attorney over 20 years. I practiced criminal law a number of years, then was in a practice where I also handled family law. I must say that I learned a long time ago to rarely believe ex-spouses. So, I take anything an ex says with a grain of salt.

As to what has been expunged, I say again that the LDS Church is pretty darned good at that sort of thing and again refer you to the Mark Hoffman Investigation

 

[SirThomasMore]

SirThomasMore;6938634:

Beck claims that all periodical referencing Sonia Johnson whatsoever were removed, even to the point that mircoform was edited to remove all references. The researcher to whom Pahoran refers gives his evidence here: pacumenispages.yuku.com/topic/8063

. If you can respond to that, it will be important.

First, am I to simply accept this Mormon’s post as fact? Are you saying it was impossible for the Church to remove something then put it back? We are talking about an organization (LDS) that has secrecy and manipulation down to a science.

Agreed.

Agreed.

Cool

My wife participated passively in similar activities when she was a Church member, though she suffered little herself when she left.

I am sorry

I’m afraid C.S. Lewis’s “Lunatic, Liar, or Lord?” evaluation of Jesus makes the same error … What if he was just mistaken?

I was hoping he would leave that option open…he didn;t He said she was either lying or crazy. Period.

I think CS Lewis had it right. Jesus said He was Lord. Either was crazy or He lied. If He is not crazy and He did not lie, then he was Lord.

 

[Pahoran]

That is not an evidentiary issue. A review by a group is not evidence. It would not be admissable

As you know, of course, my observation was directed to the claim that only Nibley supporters disbelieve Martha’s claims.

This claim is false.

Proof, please. Making broad statements without anything to substantiate those claims means nothing.

I provided a specific example. I can provide plenty more.

How do we know they saw the same exact periodicals?

The periodicals in question were published before Martha claims to have done her fruitless search. Either a Harvard-trained Ph.D. can’t find something that is in a library, or some gigantic conspiracy was hatched. How do you like your conspiracies, Tom? X-Files or Twilight Zone?

Wrong. Not sure where you are getting your info. I have prosecuted cases like this where either it WAS undetected, or the others werte too afraid to say anything. I had a case where a sister denied over and oever that it happened, only to discover that she had also been molested.

And since you have not discussed these matters with Martha’s siblings, your observations of other people in other cases are irrelevant and incompetent. It amounts to nothing more than trial by innuendo. Is that how you usually got your convictions?

As I pointed out to Eliza: the relatives of innocent victims of false accusations also deny them.

irrelevant

To the contrary, it is highly relevant. The actual molestation experience could well account for all the “post-traumatic” and other stuff appealed to as supporting evidence for the alleged abuse.

And? When I left the Church, some mormons[sic] tried to kidnap my children.

So you assert. What does this mean exactly? That your still-Mormon ex-wife tried to keep custody of them?

Or are you asserting actual criminal actions? If so, where and by whom? Was this alleged kidnap attempt reported to any authorities? If not, why not? I realise that you are accustomed to having your accusations against the Church and its members going completely unchallenged; but that won’t be the case when you are dealing with me.

The fact is that there have been no “Danites” for 172 years. The Church does not bump people off, whether for leaving or otherwise, and if you know a tenth as much about the Church as you claim, then you know this fact perfectly well.

Other ex-LDS have similar stories of harrassment and/or attacks.

Yes, I’m aware of the ex-Mormon grievance culture.

I find it unconvincing.

Speaking of which, Martha tells a harrowing story of Mormon ritual shunning when she and her husband moved out of her house; she called it Mura hachibu, a Japanese phrase which she translates as “expulsion from the village.” She says that as she and her husband were leaving, the neighbours all came out of their houses and turned their backs until the Becks had left the street.

I’m sure you and your fellow ex-Mormons would just lap this story up.

Except that her ex-husband John – who is no more a Mormon than you are – contradicts her on this story. According to him, it never happened.

So which story are we to believe? The incredible one that sells books, or the credible one that contradicts your prejudices?

What a conundrum!

Wow…so those are your only options? she is lying or crazy? It seems your bias makes you unwilling to consider other options

While yours makes you unwilling to consider those options. I quote:

Three hypothetical possibilities exist regarding the molestation, each of which is frightening. First, Beck may be telling the truth, presenting us with the vision of a revered defender of the faith and long-time BYU icon being the rapist of his own daughter. Second, the sexual abuse never happened, but Beck, for whatever reasons, came to think that it did and sincerely believes that it did. That scenario is tragic for all involved, making Nibley the victim of someone’s false memory and Beck the victim of bad counseling, bad psychological health, or other sad circumstances. The third option is that Beck made up the story of sexual abuse and knows that it is not true. That proposal is horrible, because it presents us with the thought that a person could have so much malice in her heart that she could knowingly fabricate a story with such tragic and far-reaching implications.

I don’t believe the first possiblity, therefore we are left with the other two. You, OTOH, swallow the first possibility hook, line and sinker.

It is Sir Thomas MORE. And yes, I would love to have her as a witness. Especially if you are a witness for the defense.

As you know, I have no evidence to give in this matter, only conclusions.

I’ll tell you where you really wouldn’t want me: on the jury.

Because I’d see through your lawyerly tricks as soon as you tried to pull them out.

I think it went like this: People who follow false prophets and worship a different god[sic] than the in the Bible should not live in glass houses lst the house come crashing down and they get cut.

Which doesn’t apply to us, because we don’t worship a different God (note the correct capitalisation) than in the Bible.

No, it really goes something like: “People who belong to a church that has a pervasive, structural problem of endemic child abuse shouldn’t be parading their triumphant schadenfreude as soon as unsubstantiated accusations are brought against some random Mormon.”

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[Pahoran]

I would agree with you if not for the fact that the Church is very good when it comes to altering records. I direct you to the investigation of the Mark Hoffman Case.

Once again, trial by innuendo.

We of course cannot chase every red herring you drag across the path; but I am aware of various accusations made against the Church in that connection. I am also aware that those accusations are false.

not sure how you could ever compare the horribleness of child molestation with withcraft trials of the distant past.

That’s because I’m not. I’m comparing the knee-jerk eagerness some people have to automatically believe accusations of child abuse with the knee-jerk eagerness some people used to have to automatically believe accusations of witchcraft.

And however distant it was in the past, the consequences of those accusations were pretty horrible for the targets.

Yet you do not offer Martha Beck that presumption. You have declared she is lying or crazy.

See above. And since when do accusers get the presumption of innocence?

No…it does not stand up to YOUR biased scrutiny.

While it does stand up to YOUR at least as biased non-scrutiny.

I can show you as many examples of her non-credible claims as you can handle; and probably more than you can deal with.

She’s not a credible witness. Sorry.

prove it

Prove what? The difficulty of repeatedly molesting a child on a top bunk, over a period of years, without ever once disturbing the sleep of two other children, one on the bottom bunk and the other a notoriously light sleeper?

I don’t have to prove it. Have you forgotten, Mr Prosecutor? The burden of proof rests with those who are so desperate to convict the accused.

Actually, I do not appeal to anything. I relate cases with which I was deeply involved. What, exactly, is the extent of your involvement in similar cases?

Similar to what?

Actual child abuse, or false accusations thereof?

I have experience of both.

Regards,
Pahoran