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EasterJoy
Guest
Of course I know men who couldn’t imagine lowering themselves like that, but I don’t know if I can imagine a man who doesn’t know any other men who would.
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EasterJoy
Guest
So some thieves have such high standards that shoplifting is beneath them? I suppose. Certainly, though, there are those who enjoy the thrill of shoplifting or pickpocketing even though they’d never go so far as to try to rob a bank. When the same thing operates in the world of relations between men and women, it may not be adultery but it is also not chaste. Remember that in addition to that commandment about committing adultery, there’s also the one that forbids coveting your neighbor’s wife.
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JackieMom
Guest
I just don’t see how a quick friendly hug in public is unchaste. Again, I hate hugs and find them awkward and bizarre, from men or women, but I don’t think the average person gets a sexual buzz from a 2-second hug. How base and perverted do we consider the male population to be? And how cheap do we think their thrills come?
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
We can speculate all we want. The fact remains, that the two of them need to talk about this and work it out between them. It may cause some degree of tension until they reach a solution that works for BOTH of them. They need to be on the same side of the problem, working toward an acceptable compromise.The problem is that he is threatening, or at least wants to threaten, the men.
If someone was touching me, and I was uncomfortable with it, I would move. How hard is it? Take a step back. Or to the side. Or heck, move to where you can touch your husband. Put your body slightly behind his, your close arm goes around his back, the other arm touches his arm. Easy peasy.
And if my husband had a problem with it, I would move. But she doesn’t. She doesn’t see anything wrong with it. So maybe the question is why?
Is it because she doesn’t have a problem with it? Or that he has a problem with everyone?
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EasterJoy
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We are not saying that this covers all or even the majority of the population, but some people, both male and female, can use a “social hug” as a way to take liberties, and by “liberties” I mean that the chaste regard they should have for a temple of the Holy Spirit is the farthest thing from their minds. I’m sure the OP’s wife has many acquaintances, but they’re not all hugging her in the way that bothers the OP. He didn’t say that everyone does this, but only a few. The majority of men are a great deal more reserved in how they hug married women, and I mean even secular men, and the ones who are particularly interested in chastity in both mind and body tend not to give full frontal hugs to any woman who is not their wife nor their blood relative.
This “taking of liberties” is particularly likely from people who’ve had quite a bit too much to drink–and if the drinking is sufficient, the liberties they try to take can escalate accordingly–but I would wager that what comes to the surface when inhibitions are removed is not something that was in no way present when the person was sober. I mean if someone covets other men’s wives even when they’re sober, they might easily offend marriage when they’ve had a bit to drink.
The other thing, of course, is that full frontal hugs are a way to “feel out” who might be interested in something a bit more, a possibility that can be pursued later.
After all, if “a quick friendly hug in public” can’t possibly be sexual, then why is it sexual harassment when your boss insists on giving you “quick friendly hugs in public” that you don’t want? I think we all know the answer to that.
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iHeartGrumpyCat
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I believe I’ve used the word only twice in twenty two posts.
So that makes you…wrong. Sorry.
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iHeartGrumpyCat
Guest
Are you?First off… I’m enjoying the parts where you assume to speak for “most men”… *reeeeeally *helps your credibility here.
Well, since you are presumably female, you will just have to take my word for it, but I’ve been around enough men in my lifetime, when the gurls aren’t around, to know how the typical male thinks.
There’s not a lot of integrity out there.
Now, I do believe in religious settings you tend to find a better class of person, but not always, or have you never run across a philandering parishioner?
Of course I feel that way, I’m a healthy male. Perhaps your husband is neutered? Or just afraid to tell you the truth.
Isn’t there a commandment about not coveting, or something like that?
Does that suggest anything to you? That perhaps I have a valid point?
As for praying to not be tempted, if I were interested in that I would have become a Jesuit so I could practice flagellation.
As it is warm weather is here. OH NO! I’d better put on my blinders! Nah!!!
There is nothing wrong with admiring the female form, a healthy male can’t help it, actually. But acting on that temptation is crossing the line.
GC
Just because I’m on a diet, doesn’t mean I can’t look at the menu.
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thewanderer
Guest
I partially agree. It is certainly true, obviously, that some men (and some women) are going to use a hug to “take liberties” as you say. Yes, that happens, and not infrequently. However, they also take liberties when simply looking at a person as well. There is a limit to the extent a person is required to go to avoid others taking said liberties. For instance, it is not necessary for me to wear a burqa even though me not wearing a burqa will inevitably result in some men taking liberties when they look at me. The same goes with chaste, friendly hugs, especially where this is the typical and culturally expected greeting and between friends (whether or not both spouses are friends). Now, obviously when someone takes liberty via a hug it is worse than simply taking liberties via a look, so one should take a little more care about this, but that doesn’t mean that it is wrong to for one person to hug a friend of theirs, even if this friend does not know the person’s spouse.
I think that is actually the main reason the OP comes across so badly. He thinks so poorly of his wife that he would not even be ok with his wife chastely and briefly hugging a good friend of hers if he personally did not know this friend. That, in my opinion, crosses the line. I can understand being wary of hugs from complete strangers and mere aquintances, but to have the opinion that your wife is not even allowed to hug a close friend of hers unless and until you personally check him out and five her the ok sounds more than a little condescending and controlling. The OP should absolutely talk to his wife about his concerns, and she, in turn ought absolutely to take them very seriously. But the OP needs to start thinking about his wife more as a person in her right rather than as property to be controlled. And yes, I realize that my words are quite possibly too harsh, and, if they are unnecessarily harsh I do apologize for that, but I believe they are appropriate for the impression the OP’s posts have given off. If I am incorrect in my perception of the OP I am more than willing to recant and apologize for my strong language. But trust me when I say that if my fiance ever talked to or about me in the way the OP has we would be having a very serious conversation about whether or not I am willing to actually marry someone with such an attitude towards me. I will not be looked on as property and neither should any other person.
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iHeartGrumpyCat
Guest
Believe me, if this were rigged the poll numbers would be quite different.
It is interesting that the people who agree with me seem firm in the agreement, but I don’t see any paranoia.
It makes me question how aware most people really are.
Now excuse me, I have to go create a few hundred free email addresses.
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thewanderer
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OP, the bolded is extremely telling. It really does seem as though your perspective of your fellow men is being somewhat skewed by your own perception of women. Don’t get me wrong, I totally understand that there are plenty of creeps out there, but your attitude here that any man who claims to think and feel differently than you is either neutered, an unhealthy male, or simply straight out lying is very, very telling. You are just plain wrong about this. Yes, there are a lot of creeps, and yes, there are a lot of guys who look at women as you do, but there really are also guys that don’t. Maybe you don’t happen to know any of them personally, but they absolutely do exist, and in greater numbers than you would think (though I admit that they are not the majority).
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iHeartGrumpyCat
Guest
I can’t tell from your post if you are male or female, but it is a very real phenomenon.
Some women understand it, but not most, same for the guys.
A very simple example would be one male animal mounting another male to show dominance (I thought about using two rams butting heads, but I thought the mounting analogy was better since the core of this thread is about inappropriate touching.)
The same thing happens in every single social interaction among humans, generally without the mounting, fortunately.
One man will try to dominate the other in subtle, or not so subtle ways. It’s the way of the world.
Men who act this way are Alpha, men who don’t are Beta.
Sadly, for the last 60 years or so, the BLUE pill movement has been mercilessly trying to crush the Alpha out of us and make us all Beta, but Alpha appears to be making a resurgence.
Check out post #6. Fairwinds is a true Alpha male, a man’s man.
I’ll bet he’s a gentleman and is chivalrous.
Whether you’re a beta male or a woman, check out the Manosphere, you will find it eye opening.
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iHeartGrumpyCat
Guest
Ouch.
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Em_in_FL
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JackieMom
Guest
And my suspicions are confirmed with the manosphere reference.
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iHeartGrumpyCat
Guest
I trust my wife completely, it’s a subset of the men I don’t trust. We actually did have a good talk about it last night and she admitted that the prolonged hug did make her uncomfortable.If he doesn’t trust his wife, then he needs to talk to her about.
He doesn’t need to threaten anyone and everyone that comes near her.
OP, take a peek at the poll. MOST people agree that it isn’t a big deal.
For some reason this is difficult for her to discuss, but obviously she is uncomfortable with the hugs, so in the future I will be politely asking these potential interlopers to please keep their hands off my wife, no threat required.
If they try it again, they’ll get a righteous smitedown ala Fairwinds.
Obviously I won’t be saying something to anyone and everyone that comes near her. That’s idiotic of you to suggest. We talked to dozens of people the other day that my wife knew, that I didn’t know and only three of them insisted on pushing the issue for a hug.
As for the poll numbers, the wool over their eyes crowd isn’t that far ahead. I’m actually feeling heartened that there are quite a few people out there who feel the same way I do.
There may be hope.
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iHeartGrumpyCat
Guest
I could ask how you know this, but I will refrain.
I think for the prowling creep, the brazenness of the act is part of it. The idea of pushing and seeing how far you can get before you are called out.
Look at the phenomenon of subway groping.
For that matter, look at #4…prolonged hug then, when my wife called him on it, he backs off and offers his insincere apology.
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iHeartGrumpyCat
Guest
My goal is to prevent rather than treat.
GC
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
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thewanderer
Guest
Seeing as anyone who is going to take liberties with a hug is going to have no problem taking liberties with their looks and thoughts I am afraid I must inform you that it is you who are being naive in thinking that you can prevent other men from taking liberties with your wife.
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Em_in_FL
Guest
This. You can’t control others.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Look back at the OPs post. These are mere acquaintances!
- Someone we ran into at a wine tasting. I’d never met the other man, but he used to work next door to my wife’s work…Not Wife’s Close friend.
- “…someone who had been trying to sell something to the office where she works. She’d already told me he had annoyed the office by being pushy and she didn’t even remember his name…”…Not Wife’s Close friend
- “…wine tasting, subsequent year. We see someone who belongs to our old parish. I know him by sight…My wife limited it to a side hug…This guy held the hug for 5 seconds or longer…” Note that wife does not say, “Bob, this is Hal, we worked at the church picnic that year you couldn’t come”…No, she introduces her husband instead as “Oh, and this big, strong man is my husband.”…Not Wife’s Close friend
- “…touching her arm repeatedly, which she was holding across her torso…” Visualize that…not a guy who reads body language very well and Not Wife’s Close Friend (although this guy seems the least odd, to be honest)
So, I’m not really sure she appreciates or wants the hugs, but is just being nice…"
His wife is NOT saying “Well, I want to hug them, so leave me alone.” She’s getting accosted even when she has her arms folded across her torso. He’s not trying to control his wife! She’s saying there’s nothing to be done about it, and he’s asking us, “Is that true?” I don’t think it is, but I think a lot of pushy people take advantage of the fact that an awful lot of nice people won’t draw a boundary with them because they are afraid that drawing boundaries violates polite behavior.
Drawing boundaries does not have to violate polite behavior, not at all. It can be done without a lot of fanfare. The OP can tell her, “Sandy, just say ‘Excuse me, but I’d rather you not touch me like that.’ Then if they start making a big deal of apologizing, she can say, ‘Bob, if you feel close enough to touch me, you’re close enough to get a little feedback without making a big deal out of it. I didn’t like that, don’t do it, but no big deal, just take your hand away and no foul…now, what were you saying?’” And, as I said in my first post, she can learn some of the strategies that priests and people who work in the Church with children have to learn in order to keep things appropriate. It can be done, but a little self-assertion is required…just a little. No drama, just a little turn her or a word there, nothing big.
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