Huh?

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Hi, Catholic Dude,

quote: Catholic Dude
Both Jews and Catholics REJECT the central pillars of Protestantism, which is Faith Alone and Scripture Alone. Tradition and Works are central.
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And your point is…?
Jews and Christians agree on any number of moral issues, as well.
That does not address my point, I think.

2000 years ago, a Jew who accepted Christianity was
considered an apostate.
If I, having lived for 58 years accepting Christianity, accept
Judaism, thereby rejecting the Christian faith, I will be
considered, technically, an apostate.
Apostasy works both ways.

A careful reading of what I wrote will note that I employ
the word “heretic” for Luther- the term used 500 years ago.

I use the word “apostasy” for the Judaic view of
Christian doctrine - 2000 years ago.
There’s a big difference, IMHO, between heresy and
apostasy.

quote: Catholic Dude
So how does faith work in all this?
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As far as I can see:
A Christian may say: Thank God I’ve been give the grace
to see the Truth that Jesus is Lord.
A Jew may say: Thank God I’ve been given the Torah
and proclaim: “…the Lord is One…” [not 3 Persons in One.]
It is a matter of faith. Accept the testimony of the
New Testament or retain the Judaic belief in* it’s* fullness.

What gets me rolling is a given Christian thinking that
h/she understands Judaism more clearly than Judaism…
that we are the “fulfillment” and they just didn’t see what the Messianic references meant in their “fullness.”

How many people have ever taken the
time to go to a Judaic website which lists the reasons
why Judaism thinks the Old Testament did not point to
Jesus of Nazareth?

judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_messiah3.htm

Best to you, Catholic Dude,

reen12
 
reen12,

I hoep you don’t mind my latching onto this post to ask you a question. I’ve been reading this thead and it’s interesting. I’ve never actually read any books about Judaism, but can you answer something for me? I know there must be an answer for this, but I’ve always wondered and I figure what better way than to ask someone like yourself. In the old testament the jews had to offer up sacrifice to atone for sins among other reasons (I hope I worded that right), how come they don’t now? Or what is the practice now and why? If you can explain to me or tell me where I could read it, that would be great! I’ll get out of here now! Thank you ahead of time!

Tamara
 
Hi, TamaraS,

quote:TamaraS
I hoep you don’t mind my latching onto this post to ask you a question. I’ve been reading this thead and it’s interesting. I’ve never actually read any books about Judaism, but can you answer something for me? I know there must be an answer for this, but I’ve always wondered and I figure what better way than to ask someone like yourself. In the old testament the jews had to offer up sacrifice to atone for sins among other reasons (I hope I worded that right), how come they don’t now? Or what is the practice now and why? If you can explain to me or tell me where I could read it, that would be great! I’ll get out of here now! Thank you ahead of time!
Click to expand...
In my book, the timing of your question couldn’t be better!
I just read an article, yesterday, on this very topic.

chabad.org/holidays/3weeks/default.asp

There’s some very interesting and uplifting articles on this
website.

I’m sure no expert in Judaic belief, so I rely on the
Judaic websites for my information, and am always
open to correction on my presentation of Judaic
thought.

If the article does not sufficiently answer your question,
let me know and I’ll find additional sources for you.

Best,

reen12
 
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reen12:
Hi, TamaraS,

quote:TamaraS

In my book, the timing of your question couldn’t be better!
I just read an article, yesterday, on this very topic.

chabad.org/holidays/3weeks/default.asp

There’s some very interesting and uplifting articles on this
website.

I’m sure no expert in Judaic belief, so I rely on the
Judaic websites for my information, and am always
open to correction on my presentation of Judaic
thought.

If the article does not sufficiently answer your question,
let me know and I’ll find additional sources for you.

Best,

reen12
Click to expand...
Yes, this is what I always thought, the temple is the key here. I think that’s probably the explanantion the Jews would give to the issue of no more revelation also.
 
Greetings, Strider,

I don’t know if I’d classify my current thought as
“deconstruction.” [post #38]
And I sometimes think, myself: I’m too good a person
to go to hell, if I’m truly an apostate.

[if all my visits to the nursing home to visit Mom don’t
qualify me for the World to Come, I’m in deeeeep
trouble.[Mom has advanced Altzheimer’s]

If watching over my father and grandmother
for 25 years doesn’t help…[Pop had schizophrenia]
maybe I am “lost.”

If Jesus is Who He says He is, maybe He’ll say to me:
“Come, reen…I’ll forgive you for your view of Me, won’t
deny you before the Father, and I’ll take you in, for old time’s sake. By the way, your father and mother and grandmother are here, and they want to give you a hug. They’re over there…”
And then He’ll smile.

Nu?

God bless you, Strider. I consider you my friend.

Maureen
 
Hi, Genesis315,

quote: Genesis315
Yes, this is what I always thought, the temple is the key here. I think that’s probably the explanantion the Jews would give to the issue of no more revelation also.
Click to expand...
I don’t know enough to address the “no more revelation” issue.
WBB has a solid approach, IMHO, on covenant theology.
I’ve got Scott Hahn’s book [a poster on another thread
recommeded it to me and I ordered it. I think the title
is A Father Who Keeps His Promises and I’m going to
start reading it this week.]

Thanks for your thought, Genesis315.

reen12
 
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reen12:
Hi, TamaraS,

quote:TamaraS

In my book, the timing of your question couldn’t be better!
I just read an article, yesterday, on this very topic.

chabad.org/holidays/3weeks/default.asp

There’s some very interesting and uplifting articles on this
website.

I’m sure no expert in Judaic belief, so I rely on the
Judaic websites for my information, and am always
open to correction on my presentation of Judaic
thought.

If the article does not sufficiently answer your question,
let me know and I’ll find additional sources for you.

Best,

reen12
Click to expand...
reen12,

There’s a passage in Malachi that is pretty much believed to prophecy the Mass. It refers to the Jews offering up bad sacrafices and then God seems to express a desire for the temple to be closed and instead it talks of a pure oblation being offered by the Gentiles from sun up to sun down. I think it was the Council of Trent which said the pure oblation refers to Christ. What would be the Jewish interpretation of this? I think it’s interesting that this book was the last one written before the temple was destroyed.
 
Hello, Genesis315,

That’s *very *interesting, about the quote in Malachi,
especially since he’s considered the last prophet
in a temporary suspension of prophecy. *

I’m going downstairs now, to read Malachi. Then
we’re going to watch an old movie. Can’t spend all
of my time talking theology! 🙂 [Maybe we’ll watch
a Scooby Doo cartoon, if my spouse can live with
that.:)]

Thanks for the Malachi reference, Genesis315,

reen12*
 
40.png
reen12:
Hello, Genesis315,

That’s *very *interesting, about the quote in Malachi,
especially since he’s considered the last prophet
in a temporary suspension of prophecy. *

I’m going downstairs now, to read Malachi. Then
we’re going to watch an old movie. Can’t spend all
of my time talking theology! 🙂

Thanks for the Malachi reference, Genesis315,

reen12*

Malachi 1:10-11 is the specific verses that Trent deals with. Forgot to mention it.
Click to expand...
 
Hi, Genesis315,

quote: **Genesis315 **[referring to the book of Malachi]
I think it’s interesting that this book was the last one written before the temple was destroyed.
Click to expand...
I found the following link to be of interest, with regard to
the book of Malachi being placed at the end of the
Christian bible.

torahatlanta.com/articles/Tampering%20With%20The%20Evidence.htm

Please see the section entitled: The Order of The Tanach

I’m in the procees of researching Judaic interpretations of the
book of Malachi. I’ll let you know what I find, if it would
be of interest.

Best,
reen12
 
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reen12:
Hi, Genesis315,

quote: **Genesis315 **[referring to the book of Malachi]

I found the following link to be of interest, with regard to
the book of Malachi being placed at the end of the
Christian bible.

torahatlanta.com/articles/Tampering%20With%20The%20Evidence.htm

Please see the section entitled: The Order of The Tanach

I’m in the procees of researching Judaic interpretations of the
book of Malachi. I’ll let you know what I find, if it would
be of interest.

Best,
reen12
Click to expand...
That’s an interesting website. i wonder if it’s held by all Jews. On this thread, one of our Jewish memberssaid Malachi was the last.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=66687

Regardless of where it is placed, is there any time where Gentiles offered up sacrafice to the one true God?
 
Hi, Genesis315,

I looked briefly at the website I referrenced, since my
goal was to find information on Malachi, but I noted
the information on the order of the Tanach on that site.

torahatlanta.com/articles/Tampering%20With%20The%20Evidence.htm

I found the following information, that also lists the
works of the Tanach, in the order given by Judaism.

torah.org/learning/basics/primer/torah/bible.html

Did you note the first websites claim that the placing
of Malachi, rather than Chronicles, at the end of the
Christian ordering, gives a completely different “lead in”
to Matthew? Seems a valid point to me.

As to Malachi being the “last”, Malachi was the last,
in terms of the books of prophecy…not last in order
in the Tanach, as far as I can see. [see torah.org,
referrenced above.]

As always, I’m most open to correction.

I found information on what the reference to sacrifices
outside of Israel connoted. I’ll see if I can find it again.

Best,
reen12
 
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reen12:
Hi, Genesis315,

I looked briefly at the website I referrenced, since my
goal was to find information on Malachi, but I noted
the information on the order of the Tanach on that site.

torahatlanta.com/articles/Tampering%20With%20The%20Evidence.htm

I found the following information, that also lists the
works of the Tanach, in the order given by Judaism.

torah.org/learning/basics/primer/torah/bible.html

Did you note the first websites claim that the placing
of Malachi, rather than Chronicles, at the end of the
Christian ordering, gives a completely different “lead in”
to Matthew? Seems a valid point to me.

As to Malachi being the “last”, Malachi was the last,
in terms of the books of prophecy…not last in order
in the Tanach, as far as I can see. [see torah.org,
referrenced above.]

As always, I’m most open to correction.

I found information on what the reference to sacrifices
outside of Israel connoted. I’ll see if I can find it again.

Best,
reen12
Click to expand...
Ahh, that makes sense. Well, I knew the order of the books of Scripture didn’t necessarily match up with the chrnological order they were written–I mean, the NT is definitely not in chronological order.

I am interested to see what the pure sacrifices offered by Gentiles referred to.
 
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reen12:
Hi, Genesis315,

For Malachi 1:11 commentary by Rashi, see:

chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16219&showrashi=true

Best,
reen12
Click to expand...
Thanks for looking that up. Now, obviously I am biased, but it seems that more straightforward reading gives the meaning given by Trent and seems, while reasonable, that the above interpretation is more of a stretch. I’m not sure if I buy that the Gentile idol worshippers knew the real God and knew that He was above their gods. Just my opinion. What do you think? I don’t really know much about the Gentile religions during that period.
 
I’m going to look further into various commentaries on

Malachi 1:11.

Here’s a perfect example of the limitations that exist
when I try to find information, without a knowledge of the
Hebrew language.

I’ve got to locate where I can purchase CD’s, if
possible, with the Tanach and various commentaries.

Yes, it seems a “stretch” to me, too.

I’ll let you know if I find anything of interest.

You know, if I read the commentary correctly, Rashi
seems to be saying the the “sacrifices” are prayers
offered by Israelites. Was that you’re understanding?

reen
 
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