Human beings - a mixture of good and evil?

[ncjohn]

tjmiller:

ncjohn: Apparently the term “mixed nature” comes from Alan…
Kindly consider yourself to be off the doctrinal hook, and, as per your first post, myself rather to be - in your case - “misreading”, and coming to “incorrect conclusions” through “snap judgment”… (I won’t insult you further by offering the “bad day” excuse, however!)
It was a fun excursion into theodicy, tho…

Thanks!

That is quite a relief. Now maybe my wife won’t have to throw me out for screaming “don’t burn me at the stake” in my sleep!

I think if I ever have to go to court though, I want you to be my lawyer! Or at the least my “expert witness”.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting Alan…

When you make dismissive gestures I suspect you do so as an invitation to others to disagree without worry that you will pull credentials or big-headed attitude on them – or maybe I’m totally wrong. I just project that onto you because I think I do it so it looks like a familiar pattern of disclaimership.

To be honest Alan, I think it is more to state that I am not an expert in whatever field both as self protection for my statements which are entirely from a very tired armchair in whatever field applies, and also so that others, as you have stated, will feel quite free to disagree with me since I am not an expert in whatever.

I make statements I believe in with my whole heart and then I protect my heart by holding up the statement as negotiable. The reason for the unfortunately harsh tone was that I may give you too much credit for seeing your own writing in the same way that I see it. If you could do that, you’d be as crazy as me – in addition to any other problems you may have, I suppose!

I did not denote at all a harsh attitude! and apologize if I conveyed that I did…and umm…Alan…mefinks I am far crazier than you!!!

That’s kind of annoying. The trick is supposed to be to communicate rather than overwhelm, right? Hmmmm… maybe this is because I have so much to say and so little patience to sit and type it these days I condense and assume. One thing I’ve usually noticed, though, is back in the day when I tried to hide my flaws under much verbosity you were better than most at ferreting them out.

The thing about ferreter-outers Alan…is that they are ‘experts’ at it because they are so used to the very same problematic issues in themselves. Hence when I isolate something or other perhaps in another, it is either a projection or an accurate assessment firstly of myself. Trust that makes some sense!

Let’s just say that I am glad you are on MY side most of the time because I fear your attitude detector more than most peoples’ theological/linguistic attacks.

I think I can insight the above since I am a woman and at times a most self confident and assertive woman…ever tried to win an argument with one of those

Warming up a bit, preparing to paint the front of the house, weather permitting. Looking forward to spring.

Mmmmm all the best ones are taken, intelligent and a handy man to boot! (Joking Alan! but there is truth in the statement nonetheless).
Sunday we are looking at around 100 - 103 degrees…a real scorcher and if the northerly winds prevail a really bad bushfire risk day. Our last big bushfire was started by a cigarette butt and our government here in Sth. Australia is going to bring in cigarettes that will extinguish automatically, which will increase the price of cigs…thankfully I smoke tobacco and have done for 25 odd years and on the advice of my then confessor/director.:bigyikes:

Thank you for your response … Regards - Barb

 

[AlanFromWichita]

BarbaraTherese:

To be honest Alan, I think it is more to state that I am not an expert in whatever field both as self protection for my statements which are entirely from a very tired armchair in whatever field applies, and also so that others, as you have stated, will feel quite free to disagree with me since I am not an expert in whatever.

Alas, these days it’s crazy, having to be certified just to even have an opinion it seems, the certification itself designating not much more than holding the keys to a box of powerful tools.

I did not denote at all a harsh attitude! and apologize if I conveyed that I did…and umm…Alan…mefinks I am far crazier than you!!!

I agree you did not. I did the harshness imaginatory exploratory excursions – I am one of my own harshest critics. I will NOT allow you to be “far crazier” than me, though I think I can accept “at least in the same league.” I couldn’t challenge you to a paperwork contest, though, because most of my paperwork has been destroyed!

I think I can insight the above since I am a woman and at times a most self confident and assertive woman…ever tried to win an argument with one of those

No, and God willing I’ll have the good sense never to try.

…our government here in Sth. Australia is going to bring in cigarettes that will extinguish automatically, which will increase the price of cigs…

I can see it now. Clap your hands once and it lights, twice and it goes out. Just don’t take a pack to a concert!

As far as the thread topic specifically, I didn’t get precisely through the terminology (I’m no theologian) but I liked the conclusion about satan being made good. That really makes a lot of sense to me. In a likewise fashion, everything – even alcohol and tobacco – that are part of God’s creation are good. (I’m saying that not to sidetrack but to emphasize the point)

I still don’t get where the “evil” comes from, though, unless it was through the Law. Before the law there was no conviction, so was there evil? Did original sin change our nature, or did the Law specify the parts of our nature that original sin “enabled” or “exposed” perhaps? I’m not trying to dispense with technical terms, but if I can’t confidently paraphrase in terms I understand then I fear I don’t know it with the proper terms at all.

Alan

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting Alan…

I agree you did not. I did the harshness imaginatory exploratory excursions – I am one of my own harshest critics. I will NOT allow you to be “far crazier” than me, though I think I can accept “at least in the same league.” I couldn’t challenge you to a paperwork contest, though, because most of my paperwork has been destroyed!

OK, I’ll settle for ‘in the same league’ altho that still leaves room for more, even more and most!

Quote:
I think I can insight the above since I am a woman and at times a most self confident and assertive woman…ever tried to win an argument with one of those

Quoting Alan…

No, and God willing I’ll have the good sense never to try.

Ahhh wisdom!

As far as the thread topic specifically, I didn’t get precisely through the terminology (I’m no theologian) but I liked the conclusion about satan being made good. That really makes a lot of sense to me. In a likewise fashion, everything – even alcohol and tobacco – that are part of God’s creation are good. (I’m saying that not to sidetrack but to emphasize the point)

Oh Boy! we are moving into the area of theology methinks … I subscribe to all things in moderation, if I don’t consistently do so! I also hold that everything created or which God has permitted to be created is good…it is our usage, attitudes and perspectives that can introduce negative morality.
Undoubtedly Satan and the fallen angels nature was created good inclusive of free will and superior intelligence…this nature apparently became intrinsically evil through their sin which did flow from their free will and superior intelligence. Perhaps they realized that if they lost their battle to overcome God the consequences would be most dire…they were! Hell! In their pride I think they really thought that they could overcome God and victory over God was assured. WRONG!

I still don’t get where the “evil” comes from, though, unless it was through the Law. Before the law there was no conviction, so was there evil? Did original sin change our nature, or did the Law specify the parts of our nature that original sin “enabled” or “exposed” perhaps? I’m not trying to dispense with technical terms, but if I can’t confidently paraphrase in terms I understand then I fear I don’t know it with the proper terms at all.

As I see things fromt this worn armchair (correctly identified as a disclaimer! ) God’s Will always was and always will be. God’s Will created our own and the angel’s free will and in the case of the latter this was coupled with a superior intelligence to ours. When Satan and its followers chose to act against God’s Will which was that they were subject to His Will, the thing and it’s its chose to live forever more outside of God’s Will … hence Hell. The Law per se comes into existence as God reveals the basic structure of His Will to humanity…the first expression of which were His Instructions to our first parents re the tree of the knowledge of good and evil…Satan tempted Eve, of her free will she acted against God’s Instructions…then she tempts Adam to do so who also disobeys.
It has more or less lately been of some interest to me that Eve is tricked by a far superior intelligence in Satan; whereas Adam is tricked only by a woman after all!
Edit: Actually the very first expression of God’s Will to humanity was “increase and multiply and fill the earth” something which I heard a priest state with a wicked and mischievious glint in his eye “and a commandment which priests and nuns break every day” (now that is only a joke…like John, I dont want to be screaming “Not the stake, please spare me the stake! anything but the stake” (or something akin to that!) in my sleep!

Satan’s sin was one of pride in that it really thought that it could overcome God…whereas Adam and Eve it seems to me did not have the insight of the superior intelligence of Satan, hence their consequence were not as dire as that of Satan and the fallen angels. In fact the consequences where Adam and Eve are concerned include a saviour in time. Satan is precluded this and I tend to think because the far superior intelligence did insight the consequences if it failed, pride told the thing it could not. WRONG! Hatred of God comes from the fact that it was indeed wrong. Nothing more stumbles and stings pride than to declare it is absolutely right beyond doubt and then to discover it is absolutely wrong beyond doubt. Undoubtedly the pride of Satan etc. was such that their failure produced more than a stumble and sting…it produced hatred.

My take on matters…from thin ice…regards - Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Apologies, missed this comment in my previous post:

Quoting Alan:Alas, these days it’s crazy, having to be certified just to even have an opinion it seems, the certification itself designating not much more than holding the keys to a box of powerful tools.

These days methinks if one does hold an intelligent opinion on matters funtioning in this world and rocking the boat, one IS perhaps likely to be certified because one is indeed holding keys to a box of most powerful tools, in fact far too powerful for society to allow - hence certification. I did have a disclaimer in there Alan…but did decide to delete it since you have my ‘six’ as your children say!..rather than include the disclaimer I used the underscore facility which is a sneaky disclaimer

People who can cope with society don’t go mad…only those who cannot cope with it any longer - madness the viable option to get out of the scene!

Regards - Barb
PS We have had a real breakthrough on the mental health front as the Premier of Queensland, and a highly respected politician, has just announced he is resigning his post as he is being treated for depression. I heard one public figure state that this is probably his greatest political achievement and a real positive contribution to the mental health problem…and problems that daunt and hold back sufferes from a positive contribution to society…the biggest is unjust and totally incorrect stigma of sufferers!..i.e. society will not allow us to contribute on any front at all within society (more or less!). …and another sneaky disclaimer in there Alan thru the use of brackets!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

BarbaraTherese:

These days methinks if one does hold an intelligent opinion on matters funtioning in this world and rocking the boat, one IS perhaps likely to be certified because one is indeed holding keys to a box of most powerful tools, in fact far too powerful for society to allow - hence certification. I did have a disclaimer in there Alan…but did decide to delete it since you have my ‘six’ as your children say!..rather than include the disclaimer I used the underscore facility which is a sneaky disclaimer

People who can cope with society don’t go mad…only those who cannot cope with it any longer - madness the viable option to get out of the scene!

Regards - Barb
PS We have had a real breakthrough on the mental health front as the Premier of Queensland, and a highly respected politician, has just announced he is resigning his post as he is being treated for depression. I heard one public figure state that this is probably his greatest political achievement and a real positive contribution to the mental health problem…and problems that daunt and hold back sufferes from a positive contribution to society…the biggest is unjust and totally incorrect stigma of sufferers!..i.e. society will not allow us to contribute on any front at all within society (more or less!). …and another sneaky disclaimer in there Alan thru the use of brackets!

Barb,

That is an excellent commentary. The actual context in which I was using “certified” was intended to be different. Here I meant we are so legalistic and specialized these days … I just called the “youth crisis hotline” to see if I could get back on it as a volunteer, fearing exactly what I got. As government/industry machine systematically acts answers its own prayer of Jabez, I can no longer be trained and operate the hotline as a volunteer, working for the charitable organization (Kansas Childrens’ Services League) which hosted it. It is now all under control of a “program” of the county and only people with certificates and all can operate it. Methinks these people are only slightly more – if at all – likely to perform adequate crisis intervention, compared to well-trained volunteers. This especially apparent from the number of calls I used to get from children in crisis, when the appropriate government resources (such as Social and Rehabilitative Services) have been brought in and had made things worse. The other side is that more and more our human faculties to see into areas other than our own specialties are being systematically dulled by society as we helplessly fall into the increasingly deep grooves that divide us, trusting that the government and industry will come pluck us out when “our specific certified skills – or lack thereof” are needed. This government is quickly becoming socialist, and the bureacracy itself has appoint itself chief medical, mental and social doctor – which is only a good thing when everybody is perfectly Christian and the government is the Church. We cannot build a kingdom of God with lawyers and politicians and police, but that’s what we’re trying to do – unfortunately the Tower of Babel is falling down. On the other hand, the fall of the Tower also enables us on the anarchist side to operate with near impunity until they get the Patriot Act into full swing and monitor all of our Internet traffic as well as everything else.

Alan

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting Alan:

…The actual context in which I was using “certified” was intended to be different. Here I meant we are so legalistic and specialized these days … I just called the “youth crisis hotline” to see if I could get back on it as a volunteer, fearing exactly what I got. As government/industry machine systematically acts answers its own prayer of Jabez, I can no longer be trained and operate the hotline as a volunteer, working for the charitable organization (Kansas Childrens’ Services League) which hosted it. It is now all under control of a “program” of the county and only people with certificates and all can operate it.

I remember in my counselling days and working as a voluntary counsellor on Lifeline, wanting to transfer to Youthline, but at 28 was told I was too old, I had to be under 25yrs. I thought at the time this was ridiculous until one night with the Youthline phone unattended for a while, I felt a surge of joy as it rang and I could answer it…but the language used by the young person on the other end was Greek to me!!!..and then I understood why I was not permitted to be a Youthline Counsellor.
As each new generation comes up, they have developed their own peculiar language. And also peculiar in another sense: wicked means wonderful! Sick means wonderful etc. etc. etc.
In my counselling days Lifeline was trying to get itself off the ground, hence almost anyone could be trained to man the phones. Nowadays Lifeline is peopled by certified people!..(using certified in your context) …mmmmm…
Unfortunately trained personnel are most often coming from books…and there is nothing quite like coming from experience and if coupled with the book wisely is even better perhaps.

Methinks these people are only slightly more – if at all – likely to perform adequate crisis intervention, compared to well-trained volunteers. This especially apparent from the number of calls I used to get from children in crisis, when the appropriate government resources (such as Social and Rehabilitative Services) have been brought in and had made things worse. The other side is that more and more our human faculties to see into areas other than our own specialties are being systematically dulled by society as we helplessly fall into the increasingly deep grooves that divide us, trusting that the government and industry will come pluck us out when “our specific certified skills – or lack thereof” are needed. This government is quickly becoming socialist, and the bureacracy itself has appoint itself chief medical, mental and social doctor – which is only a good thing when everybody is perfectly Christian and the government is the Church. We cannot build a kingdom of God with lawyers and politicians and police, but that’s what we’re trying to do – unfortunately the Tower of Babel is falling down. On the other hand, the fall of the Tower also enables us on the anarchist side to operate with near impunity until they get the Patriot Act into full swing and monitor all of our Internet traffic as well as everything else.

I do tend to agree with you, we are become a world of speciliazation and with its own peculiar language to express that specialization. The hardest lesson I had to learn in the public mental health system was that it was not a system based on Christian values. As Church and state separate…this then is the reason why The Church does need to speak up on secular society, politics etc. etc. As theology is said to be the conscience of science, so The Church needs to function as the conscience of a secular society which is not based on Christian values and morality…and speak loudly with affect and effect on a given situtation and reasoned out in those interests.

until they get the Patriot Act into full swing and monitor all of our Internet traffic as well as everything else

It will happen… eventually - but then God does know what exactly is going on in all the here’s and there’s…hence no reason for despair. Rather for reasoned and constructive action that is not based on emotional reaction driven by a sense of doom…but carefully thought out action based on prayer. The latter I may be able to contribute to, while the former is up to better minds. As society specializes, so The Church too needs its specialist to speak to those specializations in their own language and level of knowledge of their field.
The person in the street, needs the Catholic who is simply a person in the street simply because they speak their lingo!..a specialist of another kind.

Regards Alan…Barb