Human rights and the pope

[StrawberryJam]

If you are following this thread you will gather that the posts are about the Pope and the Vaticans status in the UN as a State, and I pointed to the attacks for at least the last 15 years by several hundred groups to remove the Vatican State from the UN. This status of the Vatican as a State is being argued as the only impediment to arresting the Pope.
I neither know nor care anything for someone called Donohue.

Why not be honest about his standing in the UN then?

This issue goes beyond his so called (and very limited) place in the UN. I am sure you realize that, or you would not have made it such a point to begin with.

 

[Thing]

Why not be honest about his standing in the UN then?

This issue goes beyond his so called (and very limited) place in the UN. I am sure you realize that, or you would not have made it such a point to begin with.

What do you mean, - his standing in the UN -, it is the same as any other head of State.
This issue is being used as just one more method to attack Catholicisms Church, like all the previous failed attempts to attack it in the UN, and elsewhere, over the years. There is a great resentment towards the CC in every age and time. From the Roman Emperors to the Italian Princes, the German Princes, the English Crown etc., etc. etc. The worst attacks on the Church, though, come from within it. Bad selection committees for Seminaries; woefully bad advice from psychiatrists advising Bishops to ‘treat’ the peds. and telling them they are ‘cured’.
Weak Bishops afraid of the pressure of scandal or feeling morally bound to respect a families requested wish for privacy for their abused son or daughter. The media TV and radio for some strange reason seem to think their job is to expose every miserable criminal and unfortunate victim to public scrutiny. I await the time when journalists and reporters stand up in public voluntarily and recount to us all of their unethical deeds, then apologise for them and resign from their jobs. It is, after all, all their ask of other people.
The Popes standing as far as the UN goes is that he is the head of a State, just like Barak O. is the head of the USA ‘State’. And God help BO if he makes a mistake or Richard Dawkins will try to have an arrest warrant issued against him. I suppose.

 

[Leela]

The Pope is the head of the Vatican city/state.
.

The pope is no head of state. He visits other countries not as the head of Vatican City and its 800 temporary residents but as the leader of the Holy See which is not a country but the collection of all Roman Catholics. I see no reason why he would enjoy diplomatic immunity as a head of state, but this will be an isue for the lawyers to sort out.

Best,
Leela

 

[Leela]

To answer the question: obviously it’s possible that a pope could be guilty of human rights violations, but this possibility has zero bearing on infallibility.

It sure is interesting to see how dumbfoundingly assinine these great champions of atheism can be, fighting, supposedly, under the aegis of reason! (I thought they’d be above such a dumb stunt - I still hold out hope that they’ve been misquoted or something.) It’s comforting to see we have some more reasonable atheists present here.

I don’t see it as a dumb stunt. For exmaple, I don’t understand how a congressional investigation of baseball is warranted and a congressional investigation into the questionable institutional practices of the RCC in the US is not.

 

[Thing]

The pope is no head of state. He visits other countries not as the head of Vatican City and its 800 temporary residents but as the leader of the Holy See which is not a country but the collection of all Roman Catholics. I see no reason why he would enjoy diplomatic immunity as a head of state, but this will be an isue for the lawyers to sort out.

Best,
Leela

The population of Vatican City is about 800 people, of whom over 450 have Vatican citizenship, while the rest have permission to reside there, either temporarily or permanently, without the benefit of citizenship.

About half of the Vatican’s citizens do not live inside Vatican City. Because of their occupations (mostly as diplomatic personnel), they live in different countries around the world. The conferral or loss of citizenship, authorization to live inside Vatican City and formalities for entering the territory, are governed by special regulations issued according to the Lateran Treaty.
**Vatican City State was founded following the signing of the Lateran Pacts between the Holy See and Italy on February 11th 1929. These were ratified on June 7th 1929. Its nature as a sovereign State distinct from the Holy See is universally recognized under international law.**The Catholic Church carries out its mission of announcing the truth of the Gospel for the salvation of all humanity and in the service of peace and justice in favour of all peoples, both through the various specific and local Churches spread throughout the world, as well as through its central government. This is made up of the Pope and the Departments that assist him in carrying out his responsibilities towards the universal Church (identified as the Apostolic See or Holy See). The Pope lives in Vatican City where several of the aforementioned Departments are to be found. Vatican City State has the singular characteristic of being an instrument of the independence of the Holy See, and of the Catholic Church, from any earthly power. In a way, it is a sign of the Church’s supernatural character insofar as the structures of Vatican City are reduced to the minimum necessary to guarantee its functions.

April 11, 2010

Richard Dawkins calls for arrest of Pope Benedict XVI
Marc Horne

Atheist campaigner Richard Dawkins
RICHARD DAWKINS, the atheist campaigner, is planning a legal ambush to have the Pope arrested **during his state visit to Britain ***“for crimes against humanity”.

!!!?? *

 

[Leela]

The population of Vatican City is about 800 people, of whom over 450 have Vatican citizenship, while the rest have permission to reside there, either temporarily or permanently, without the benefit of citizenship.

About half of the Vatican’s citizens do not live inside Vatican City. Because of their occupations (mostly as diplomatic personnel), they live in different countries around the world. The conferral or loss of citizenship, authorization to live inside Vatican City and formalities for entering the territory, are governed by special regulations issued according to the Lateran Treaty.

These nuncios represent the Holy See, not Vatican City.

**Vatican City State was founded following the signing of the Lateran Pacts between the Holy See and Italy on February 11th 1929. These were ratified on June 7th 1929. Its nature as a sovereign State distinct from the Holy See is universally recognized under international law.**The Catholic Church carries out its mission of announcing the truth of the Gospel for the salvation of all humanity and in the service of peace and justice in favour of all peoples, both through the various specific and local Churches spread throughout the world, as well as through its central government. This is made up of the Pope and the Departments that assist him in carrying out his responsibilities towards the universal Church (identified as the Apostolic See or Holy See). The Pope lives in Vatican City where several of the aforementioned Departments are to be found. Vatican City State has the singular characteristic of being an instrument of the independence of the Holy See, and of the Catholic Church, from any earthly power. In a way, it is a sign of the Church’s supernatural character insofar as the structures of Vatican City are reduced to the minimum necessary to guarantee its functions.

April 11, 2010

Richard Dawkins calls for arrest of Pope Benedict XVI
Marc Horne

Atheist campaigner Richard Dawkins
RICHARD DAWKINS, the atheist campaigner, is planning a legal ambush to have the Pope arrested **during his state visit to Britain ***“for crimes against humanity”.

!!!?? *

By your reasoning, the only thing that Jim Jones was lacking to have immunity from prosecution as the head of state of Jones Town is a treaty with Guayana. In fact, Jones Town had a larger population, commerce, permanent residents where women and children were considered part of the community, and much else that Vatican City lacks that stand reason as necessary for considering it a legitimate state.

Best,
Leela

 

[Thing]

Vatican City State

Sovereign
THE SUPREME PONTIFF BENEDICT XVI

Bishop of Rome; Vicar of Jesus Christ; Successor of the Prince of the Apostles; Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church; Primate of Italy; Metropolitan Archbishop of the Province of Rome; Sovereign of the State of Vatican City; Servant of the Servants of God:
JOSEPH RATZINGER
Born in Marktl am Inn, Diocese of Passau (Germany), on April 16th 1927; ordained to the priesthood on June 29th 1951; appointed Archbishop of München and Freising on March 25th 1977 and ordained on May 28th 1977. Created a Cardinal in the Consistory of June 27th 1977. He was elected Pope on April 19th 2005 and inaugurated his pastoral ministry as Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church on April 24th 2005.

Oh but here, read it yourself…here

 

[Thing]

Vatican City – State of the Vatican City
Latin: Civitas Vaticana – Status Civitatis Vaticanæ
Italian: Città del Vaticano – Stato della Città del Vaticano
Widely recognized country. The Holy See, a sovereign entity recognized by 176 countries, administers the territory of Vatican City; the Holy See is a permanent observer of the UN in the category of “Non-member State.” Vatican City is governed by officials appointed by the Pope, with the latter being the Bishop of the Archdiocese of Rome and therefore, ex officio sovereign of Vatican City. The Holy See also administers a number of extraterritorial properties in Italy and in many other countries (Apostolic Nunciatures).

---

Great, glad thats settled.

 

[mrhenrik]

Uhm, you’re going to have to cite a source for that.

 

[Leela]

Great, glad thats settled.

Not to me. You can cut and paste references to the sovereign state of Vatican City all you want, but it won’t make me think that it is even a legitimate city let alone a state. I’ll just keep wonderring what your criteria for statehood could possibly be where such a conclusion could make sense. What are your criteria besides “Wikipedia says so”?

Also, in your quotes, you or whoverer you are quoting keeps conflating the Holy See and Vatican City. The Holy See is not a state. It is the Holy See rather than Vatican City which has nuncios in various contries and (non-voting) representation in the UN. Those facts have no bearing on the questionable status of the pope as a head of state. Heads of state are generally regarded as representing people rather than 100 acre plots of land with some office buildings and churches. If Vatican City had a soccer team or something and more than a few hundred temporary citizens it would be different.

Best,
Leela

 

[Thing]

Not to me. You can cut and paste references to the sovereign state of Vatican City all you want, but it won’t make me think that it is even a legitimate city let alone a state. I’ll just keep wonderring what your criteria for statehood could possibly be where such a conclusion could make sense. What are your criteria besides “Wikipedia says so”?

Also, in your quotes, you or whoverer you are quoting keeps conflating the Holy See and Vatican City. The Holy See is not a state. It is the Holy See rather than Vatican City which has nuncios in various contries and (non-voting) representation in the UN. Those facts have no bearing on the questionable status of the pope as a head of state. Heads of state are generally regarded as representing people rather than 100 acre plots of land with some office buildings and churches.** If Vatican City had a soccer team or something and more than a few hundred temporary citizens it would be different.**

Best,
Leela

Which makes you a majority of one, Leela.

Population
Although 1000 people live within Vatican City, many dignitaries, priests, nuns, guards, and 3,000 lay workers live outside the Vatican. Officially, there are about 800 citizens making it the smallest nation in demographic size on the globe. The Vatican even fields a soccer team composed of the Swiss Guard who hold dual citizenship.

 

[Thing]

Uhm, you’re going to have to cite a source for that.

List of Soverign States
V for Vatican.

 

[mrhenrik]

edit: posted this at the same time as your post, just a moment

 

[Thing]

“Vatican City
The Vatican City is a city in Italy, with a few people living there and a lot of people working there. The Pope is there too, but he’s not the head of state. He can be arrested if anyone wants to arrest him.”

I’m glad that’s settled.

Honestly, is a link to your source too much to ask for? I had the impression this was common courtesy in discussions but I guess I was mistaken.

On the vague offchance that you are talking to me [uncertainty because thats not my quote above except for the short line under it outside the quotation marks] here is the link to the Vatican City State website - Vatican State

 

[Leela]

Which makes you a majority of one, Leela.

Population
Although 1000 people live within Vatican City, many dignitaries, priests, nuns, guards, and 3,000 lay workers live outside the Vatican. Officially, there are about 800 citizens making it the smallest nation in demographic size on the globe. The Vatican even fields a soccer team composed of the Swiss Guard who hold dual citizenship.

A nation of 800 people sounds absurd to me. At any rate, the pope is not considered to be important because he is the sovereign leader of these 800 people (a transitory population) but because he is the leader of the Holy See.

 

[Thing]

A nation of 800 people sounds absurd to me. At any rate, the pope is not considered to be important because he is the sovereign leader of these 800 people (a transitory population) but because he is the leader of the Holy See.

What you think in your head about this is not important. What is real in this world is what counts. The Pope is ex officio sovereign of Vatican City.

 

[mrhenrik]

For some reason I’m unable to edit my previous post.

I posted the above “quote” as a sarcastic remark to your citing without a source and claiming everything was settled because of it. Note that it was posted 1 minute after you did provide me with the source, so I thought you had ignored my post or something.

In any case:

The Wikipedia article you cited doesn’t in any way clarify the position of the Pope as an internationally recognised head of state.

Widely recognized country. The Holy See, a sovereign entity recognized by 176 countries, administers the territory of Vatican City; the Holy See is a permanent observer of the UN in the category of “Non-member State.”[47] Vatican City is governed by officials appointed by the Pope, with the latter being the Bishop of the Archdiocese of Rome and therefore, ex officio sovereign of Vatican City. The Holy See also administers a number of extraterritorial properties in Italy and in many other countries (Apostolic Nunciatures).

For starters - widely recognised is a very unspecific statement. It goes on to saying that The Holy See is recognised by 176 countries - but that’s not the Vatican. It even says that it is The Holy See and not the Vatican which owns the observer seat in the UN - so the Vatican doesn’t even have that.

In the main article about The Vatican there was very little information on the recognition of it as a state.

 

[Leela]

What you think in your head about this is not important. What is real in this world is what counts. The Pope is ex officio sovereign of Vatican City.

What will be important is however the relevent courts will rule on the matter of issuing a warrant. I suspect that specific criteria will be discussed for what constitutes a head of states instead of only arguing “lots of people think so” (which may actually be used as one of the criteria used to decide the matter).

 

[Thing]

Article 26 of the Conciliation Treaty stresses that, “Italy…recognizes the State of the Vatican City under the sovereignty of the Supreme Pontiff.” 170 nations have affirmed this by establishing diplomatic relations with the Holy See. Historical precedent has accorded the Holy See state sovereignty and its elected leader, Pope Benedict, the international rights of diplomatic immunity, affirmed April 1, 2010 by Giuseppe dalla Torre, President of the Court of State of Vatican City. (Reuters, April 1, 2010, Philip Pullella, “Vatican: Pope has immunity in sex abuse trials”)

Defining the Lateran Pacts of 1929
Although 21st Century observers may attempt to use legal maneuvers to strip the Holy See of sovereignty, the 1929 Lateran Pacts clearly define the independence of the Holy See. This includes diplomatic immunity for the head of state.

Read more at Suite101: Papal Immunity and Vatican Sovereignty: Creation of the Holy See by the Lateran Pacts of 1929 italianhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/papal-immunity-and-vatican-sovereignty#ixzz0kzwvPSda
italianhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/papal-immunity-and-vatican-sovereignty

 

[Thing]

What will be important is however the relevent courts will rule on the matter of issuing a warrant. I suspect that specific criteria will be discussed for what constitutes a head of states instead of only arguing “lots of people think so” (which may actually be used as one of the criteria used to decide the matter).

Great, knock yourself out Leela