Human Rights Groups Accused of Undermining Capitalism

[MikeWM]

shockerfan:

Quite simple…you get sick, you wait a long time to see a doctor, you die waiting… very simple.

Everyone I know that lives in Canada or that comes from Canada, have nothing positive to say about government controlled health care.

Well, I have to beg to differ, for the UK at least. I spent the first four months of last year in hospital, and the care I received was almost uniformly excellent.

Mike

 

[shockerfan]

Philip P:

You need to look at more than just GDP. Wage growth and other quality of living measures are also important. What good does it do the average worker if Bill Gates made an extra million dollars this year while everyone else’s hourly wage stayed flat?

My statistics were in reply to your comment:
Philip P:

Also, this doesn’t address the competitive advantage other countries have over the US right now.

Wage growth and other quality of life measures are not necessarily “competitive advantages”. They could be if you are competing with another company locally to attract the best workforce, but not really a competitive advantage when comparing the US to the EU.

After you have a happy Thanksgiving (which I do hope you and your family have a safe and happy one), please provide stats that support your claim about the EU’s competitive advantages over the US.

thanks and God Bless.

 

[shockerfan]

Philip P:

The overwhelming majority of Canadians are far more satisfied with their health care than most Americans are.

I’m not sure what this means.

How do you compare a Canadian’s view of their healthcare system vs. an American’s view of their own different system?

What statistics / polls / references do you have to back your claim?

Like I said, my view was based upon personal conversations with my Canadian friends. None of them were happy with their current system.

 

[MommaKat]

MikeWM:

Having the state do it for you is simpler still

Mike

Yes if your old the state won’t fix broken bones. Yes if your to sick the state will not treat you. If your in Denmark the state will put you out of your pain no matter your age.

I do agree that we have to return health care to the private market. Insurance and Attorneys have increased the cost of health care dramatically. I think that the government should just get out of the way of business. There does have to be laws to protect the worker and the environment this is for the benefit of all. But allow business to work. At present our enconomy is being run by small businesses. My husband is working in a small Insurance Agency. We contribute to our health care and the Agency works with COSE. (Council of Small Enterprise). Reminds me of the guilds that were formed in the Middle Ages.

 

[MikeWM]

MommaKat:

Yes if your old the state won’t fix broken bones.

Err… yes it will.

Yes if your to sick the state will not treat you.

Err… yes it will, like with me last year. Four months in hospital. Imagine how much my premiums would be now if I had to get individual private health care.

If your in Denmark the state will put you out of your pain no matter your age.

I’m not in Denmark, and euthanasia is a different topic anyway.

Mike

 

[Anglican77]

vern humphrey:

I consider the conditions that militate jobs being sent overseas a consequence of creeping socialism. We have made it impossible for many companies to make a profit from American labor – and that’s what drives jobs overseas.

There are several reasons that companies send jobs overseas. One reason is when you have a free market, it is driven by competition. Therefore, while many companies CAN afford to pay American laborers a living wage, in order to remain competitive, they send jobs overseas. Another reason is plain greed. For publicly owned companies, there may be pressure from major stockholders to increase profits and instead of giving paycuts to executives (gasp!) they lay off tens of thousands of workers and then outsource jobs to overseas workers for a fraction of their salaries. End result: huge dividends for stockholders and enormous bonuses for executives.

 

[rlg94086]

MikeWM:

Well, I have to beg to differ, for the UK at least. I spent the first four months of last year in hospital, and the care I received was almost uniformly excellent.

Mike

Then why did the people I worked with in the UK opt for private care? They said the national system was inadequate.

Btw…glad you received good care and are now well.

God Bless,

Robert

 

[rlg94086]

Anglican77:

There are several reasons that companies send jobs overseas. One reason is when you have a free market, it is driven by competition. Therefore, while many companies CAN afford to pay American laborers a living wage, in order to remain competitive, they send jobs overseas. Another reason is plain greed. For publicly owned companies, there may be pressure from major stockholders to increase profits and instead of giving paycuts to executives (gasp!) they lay off tens of thousands of workers and then outsource jobs to overseas workers for a fraction of their salaries. End result: huge dividends for stockholders and enormous bonuses for executives.

So, how do you propose to keep companies from moving jobs overseas? I’ve heard a lot of bellyaching about this, but what is the solution?

 

[Anglican77]

I pose this question: in order to support American jobs, would you be willing to pay a higher price for goods to support companies that do not outsource jobs overseas?

 

[Anglican77]

rlg94086:

So, how do you propose to keep companies from moving jobs overseas? I’ve heard a lot of bellyaching about this, but what is the solution?

I’m not proposing anything. I was merely disputing Vern’s claim that jobs go overseas because of a push for socialism in our economy that forces these companies to send jobs overseas because they would go belly-up otherwise. My point is that there are several reasons why this happens, and his argument ignored most of them.

 

[MommaKat]

MikeWM:

I’m not in Denmark, and euthanasia is a different topic anyway.

Mike

You are in the EU how long do you think it will be the law of Europe? England at this moment is considering assisted suicide. Socialism is the driving force of the atheism of Europe.

 

[koda]

rlg94086:

The problem koda, is that while the problems you identify do exist, more regulation and increased wages will exacerbate those problems.

Very few conservative support unabashed capitalism…generally they are Libertarians…, but we do believe that government has over-regulated and needs to be reined in.

We need to compete against those other countries, or more jobs will go overseas. The government doesn’t send them there, and we can’t stop companies from doing it. We need to encourage businesses to choose the US.

Yes, we do. IMO, we should tax their profits at a very high level. Do you want to work for $5 a day and no benefits? Well, nobody else does either. Are you suggesting this is what we need to do to be competititve? Send our workers into poverty while the fat cats get fatter? As someone else on this thread has said: it is greed, plain and simple.

 

[MommaKat]

MikeWM:

I’m not in Denmark, and euthanasia is a different topic anyway.

Mike

You are in the EU how long do you think it will be the law of Europe? England at this moment is considering assisted suicide.

 

[MikeWM]

rlg94086:

Then why did the people I worked with in the UK opt for private care? They said the national system was inadequate.

If you’re willing to pay more (ie. for a ‘premium’ service), then you do (obviously) get a better/faster service, but that doesn’t mean (in my opinion) that there is anything wrong with the standard service you get from the NHS.

Btw…glad you received good care and are now well.

Thanks

Mike

 

[MikeWM]

MommaKat:

England at this moment is considering assisted suicide.

True, and in some respects that is concerning, though there isn’t any compulsion. Cases such as Terri Schiavo and Tony Bland are unfortunately already with us, on both sides of the Atlantic.

Mike

 

[Philip_P]

shockerfan:

After you have a happy Thanksgiving (which I do hope you and your family have a safe and happy one), please provide stats that support your claim about the EU’s competitive advantages over the US.

thanks and God Bless.

Thanks, you too.

 

[shockerfan]

koda:

Yes, we do. IMO, we should tax their profits at a very high level.

1. how does “taxing their profits at a very high level” encourage companies to stay in the US and not go over seas?
2. If the owners of a company do not feel like their investment in their business is worth the effort, they will simply not invest in that business, and people will lose their jobs. A low paying job is better than no job at all
3. companies do not pay taxes. They simply raise their prices and consumers pay the taxes. You can call it paying taxes if you like, but if you raise the tax rate, the prices will go up as well. Then poor people will not be able to afford the products.

koda:

Do you want to work for $5 a day and no benefits? Well, nobody else does either.

If you were making $1 a day scrounging through piles of garbage, and a company came in and offered a job for $5 a day, would you not be happy that you increased your income five fold?

Companies may relocate manufacturing operations to countries with a lower wage scale, but the wages they pay are competitive in the areas they relocate to…or they would not be able to attract workers.

So where does that leave US workers? The economy always changes…it does not stay the same. People need to be flexible about get retrained so that their skills will be desireable to other employers.

koda:

Are you suggesting this is what we need to do to be competititve? Send our workers into poverty while the fat cats get fatter?

Unless people are will to pay higher prices for the goods and services they use, companies will continue to keep their cost structures down so they can remain competitive. The “poor” is not a stagnant group of people (at least in the US). People work hard, take risks, improve their skills and marketability, to move out of the group you refer to as poor, all of the time.

koda:

As someone else on this thread has said: it is greed, plain and simple.

No, in the vast majority of cases, its simple business and economics.

While some people at some companies my fall into the “greedy” column, most are not. I know lots of people are complaining about the oil companies record profits. Did you know that their profit margin ranges from 5% - 10%. So out of every dollar of goods sold, they made anywhere from a nickel to a dime. Not exactly “greedy”.

 

[rlg94086]

koda:

Yes, we do. IMO, we should tax their profits at a very high level. Do you want to work for $5 a day and no benefits? Well, nobody else does either. Are you suggesting this is what we need to do to be competititve? Send our workers into poverty while the fat cats get fatter? As someone else on this thread has said: it is greed, plain and simple.

Tax them more, and they’ll leave faster…then, there won’t be any jobs. Quite a dilemma, isn’t it?

 

[rlg94086]

MikeWM:

If you’re willing to pay more (ie. for a ‘premium’ service), then you do (obviously) get a better/faster service, but that doesn’t mean (in my opinion) that there is anything wrong with the standard service you get from the NHS.

Thanks

Mike

Fair enough. I know when making my choices for insurance (the company offers more than one) I opt for the non-HMO because of the flexibility and coverage. Obviously, in the UK you can make a similar choice - pay more for flexibility.

Robert

 

[MikeWM]

rlg94086:

Obviously, in the UK you can make a similar choice - pay more for flexibility.

Yes - but not through the NHS. Don’t want to give anyone the wrong impression

About 1 in 10 people in the UK have some sort of private medical insurance, apparently.

Mike