Humanae Vitae Debate Part III

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PS: Since my “announcement” on this forum, I don’t think I can debate this any longer here.

Thanks.
Not judging you. Honestly. I’m not aware of your situation - if you are leaving because you want/feel you need to use ABC, or if it’s just a matter of principal.

Just speaking for myself as a recent convert. I cannot imagine choosing to have sex with my husband over the Eucharist, if that were the choice I had to make.

The first seems so … temporary. I could never walk away from Jesus just for a few minutes of intamacy, pleasure etc. Regardless of how much I love my husband - and he loves me, we both love Jesus so much more.

… and walking away from His Church would feel like walking away from Him.

I sincerely hope that you don’t believe the two are interchangable, as I have come to believe. I can’t imagine how sad your life would be if you did.

😦
 
Exactly my point.

NFP seems more “closed to life” tham modern day ABC, but it’s the ABC that’s labelled as Intrinsically evil and closed to life.
Exactly my point too!

NFP is more “closed to life” than modern day ABC, because good NFP can be more effective. When nature creates infertility, she does a better job than we do with contraceptives.

When I use NFP as birth control, I am closed to life (what would be the point of using birth control otherwise?). What I must remain open to though, according to Catholic teaching, is the natural end of each marital act. All you need is good NFP to know whether the natural end of any given marital act will be something you can live with.
sigh

PS: Since my “announcement” on this forum, I don’t think I can debate this any longer here.

Thanks.
Leaving the Catholic Church doesn’t necessarily mean you have to end your discussions on Catholic teaching. I’d certainly still love to talk to you. On the other hand, if you simply don’t want to discuss it anymore, there’s no need to justify. Consider the debate closed.
 
For a marriage, considering a life of love, partnership and unity of mind, body and souls, lets look at your question. I’d put it this way, as far as choices go: (I know what the Church teaches, but this is me, and I’ll supply reasons).

Abstinence (lowest) - This couple cannot ever have sex again. The integral part of marriage that God made “And the two shall become one flesh” is removed from the marriage. It’s torture. You live with your spouse, sleep next to them, see them naked, kiss them, yearn to share yourself with them, but it’s denied you. I’ve been there and it’s truly painful.

NFP (mid) - At least with NFP you can still be intimate. [My question for intimacy is more in respect to the couples for which NFP doesn’t work (for various reasons)] But again, with NFP, the periods of abstinence are such that when the wife is fertile, naturally she is wanting to be intimate during this time…and this is the time to deny each other. I’ve been there too. It’s a tremendous feeling of loneliness for both partners, no matter what other things you practice, there is a void when you deny the other person, continually, each month. Especially when you have to be super careful with NFP, the couple’s window is small, and more often than not, the window closes with complications. I have heard this from many people, and seen it in my life too. Very close to the above rules apply here.

** Let me say here, that if NFP works for you, and it allows you to have intercourse with your spouse where neither of you are feeling left out or lonely, that is great, good on ya! A great number of people on this board profess this, but a myriad of other folks cannot have this intimacy with their spouse whilst practicing NFP.

Non-abortive ABC (best) - At least with Non-abortive ABC, the couple having trouble with NFP has a means to be intimate and to share each other, binding their marriage and making it stronger.

The differences between NFP and Non-abortive ABC is small enough in my mind to at least afford the struggling couple a way to keep their marriage intact. Right now the rules are so strict that this either drives couples apart (nearly happened to me) or drives them away from the Church.
Okay, read on…

The only thing that happened here, is your “Catholic conscience” taking over. I have had a guilty conscience…it gnaws at you…and yes, that probably drove you apart…

Let me ask you this…if the Church relaxed their views just a little to the point where couples that truly struggle and have exhausted all possibilities are allowed to use Non-abortive ABC, would your conscience have bothered you?
No.

But with the Church defining ABC as being intrinsically evil, they cannot go back on this teaching. They have to stand their ground and not open this little doorway for struggling, good Catholics.
Even tough Non-abortive ABC is not intrinsically evil. And I’ll tell you why it’s not: Let’s look at “intrinsic”:

If Non-abortive ABC was intrinsically evil, meaning evil in and of itself, by it’s very nature, then (technically speaking) they would not have been able to allow ABC for medicinal uses either. They do teach that no evil thing can be used for good…
It’s a paradox.

I have spent much time thinking about this and the inconsistencies are there, and the lines are blurred…much more than they want to make it appear.

I’ll say again, this is where I have an issue and I can’t understand it…
A good, practicing Catholic couple try their best and give their all, they are now at the point where another child will cause them certain ruin, either by financial means, or certain death, or something as drastic as this.
They know that NFP doesn’t work effectively enough for them, and their only other option is to abstain for ever.
The Church enforces this life of loneliness and yearning - without compromise, without leniency, without mercy.

The difference between Non-abortive ABC and NFP is small enough to allow these couples a way out, to rekindle their marriage…in stead the teaching opens the door for people with little perseverance, or a weakened spirit to express their loneliness in other forms, like adultery, pornography, masturbation, etc…

Which is more evil of these two? A piece of latex? I think not.
I agree with you and this is one of the things that played a big role in my leaving the RC. Health is a big issue for me and I don’t believe that God wants us to be celibate as a result of my health problems. I also have something of an issue with celibate, single men telling me how to keep my marriage together, or giving advice about marriage at all. 🤷
 
I also have something of an issue with celibate, single men telling me how to keep my marriage together, or giving advice about marriage at all. 🤷
Wasn’t Jesus a celibate, single man? 🤷
 
Jesus, as we all know, had a bit more insight than regular humans. And I don’t remember him mentioning birth control. 😉
Of course He had more insight, and He passed it on to his apostles, who in turn passed it on. Paul is another good example of a celibate, single man who gives out marriage advice from a spiritual perspective.

Like Jesus, the Church wants us to be holy and sometimes teaches on things that keep us from holiness, even if that means covering difficult, intimate topics.

Did Jesus mention birth control? I don’t know, I wasn’t there. 😉 The fact is only a portion of Jesus’ teachings were written down.
 
I agree with you and this is one of the things that played a big role in my leaving the RC. Health is a big issue for me and I don’t believe that God wants us to be celibate as a result of my health problems. I also have something of an issue with celibate, single men telling me how to keep my marriage together, or giving advice about marriage at all. 🤷
So if you don’t believe that God instructs you through His Church, how do you believe you are guided?
 
In a culture where sex is so constantly mentioned and promoted who would be surprised that catholic people would have difficulty with church teaching when they say to slow down and be sensible about sex. (which is what they are trying to say.) but unfortunately YES all hormonal ABCs ARE abortive. 50% of all women begin to ovulate inside of the first year. The longer you use the drugs the more likely you are to ovulate. your body just overcomes the drugs. You then of course create an embryo when you have sex. look in any embryology text book you want they all say that life now exists. when that embryo that baby gets to the womb ( up to 6 days later) it cannot implant because of all the hard metals from the drug, and the fact that your lining has been thinned out tragically, and there it dies of starvation. These women are having abortions and don’t even know it. Say what you like this is proven medical science.
 
Health is a big issue for me and I don’t believe that God wants us to be celibate as a result of my health problems. I also have something of an issue with celibate, single men telling me how to keep my marriage together, or giving advice about marriage at all. 🤷
I remember when I used to say stuff like that, too. Then I read TOB. I suggest it to you. These old celibate guys know more about the value of relationships than you and I ever will.
 
Here’s the latest on the ongoing saga I’ve been with this anti-NFP antagonist,
Him Since you agree that God created humans so that the two purposes of conjugal intercourse are separate (not inseparably connected), then it follows that HV12’s “inseparable connection” is false and HV’s claim that the “inseparable connection” is God’s will is in fact a rejection of God’s will as known through His act of creation. <<

I replied: A strawman argument. We don’t agree that God created humans so the two purposes of conjugal intercourse are separate. They are no more separate than a human body and a human soul can be. The “separation” you are speaking about is a straw man. We talk about the two “aspects” of the marital embrace, even calling them seperate “meanings”, but the heart of the matter is that fertility is a POTENTIAL.

To which he replies:
**HV12, in the text, speaks of the two significances of the conjugal act: the unitive significance and the procreative significance. John Paul II, in The Theology of the Body, 11 July 1984 audience addressed this. <o:p></o:p>

It is a question here of the truth first in the ontological dimension (fundamental structure) and then - as a result in the subjective and psychological dimension (significance). The text of the encyclical stresses that in the case in question we are dealing with a norm of the natural law.<

Notice that, according to JP II, the truth in the subjective and psychological dimension (significance) results from the truth in the ontological dimension. So the truth in the ontological (objective) dimension is the defining consideration. What is that ontological truth w.r.t. conjugal relations? Ontological truth ultimately rests in the mind and will of God. And, we know that God created humans, unlike virtually all other animal species, so that conjugal intercourse serves two separate purposes: unification and procreation. So we know from His act of creation (See CCC 1147) that God did not will that the unitive and procreative purposes of conjugal intercourse be inseparably connected. And since the truth in the subjective and psychological dimension (significance) results (derives) from the truth in the ontological dimension and cannot contradict it, God did not will that the two significances, unification and procreation, be inseparably connected.

Look at it another way. Who is the subject in the subjective dimension where the truth of the norms of conjugal morality is concerned? It can only be the Creator. And we know his will through His act of creation of humans. As far as humans are concerned, the question is how do we know the subjective and psychological truth (significance) w.r.t. conjugal morality. JP II thought that he was the ultimate subject w.r.t. the norms of conjugal morality. But, JP II was a celibate with no direct conjugal knowledge or experience on which to base his subjective and psychological judgment. Married Catholic couples, however, through their marriage vocation do have direct knowledge and experience of the reality of conjugal life on which to base their judgment. 95% of married Catholics who use birth control choose ABC and reject HVs edicts. From the perspective of 95% of married Catholics who use birth control the two “significances” of the conjugal act are not “inseparably connected”. And their judgment agrees with that of the Creator.**

From what I intially observe is that he is making a strawman of JPII has said. He also seems to have a few fallacies in his arguments and logic. Would I be correct in assuming this? And finally, what would be the best rebuttal to his counterargument?
 
Your oponent doesn’t understand the significance if “inseparable.”

A similar statement is: in water, hydrogen and oxygen are inseparable. This doesn’t mean that hydrogen and oxygen cannot be separated; it means that if you separate them you no longer have water.

To restate this:* in the marital embrace *the procreative and unitive aspects are inseparable. If you separate them what you have left is not the marital embrace (mutual gift of self).
 
I’m back again, as you may recall I’ve been having an on-and-off debate with this protagonist over the issue of Humanae Vitae, NFP and ABC. Well with the 40th anniversay of HV did a review of a article for the latest issue of First Things the article is titled "
The Vindication of Humanae Vitae" by Mary Eberstadt.
For reference purpose here’s a link to the article in question:
firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=6262

My progagonist’s critique is as follows:
**There are (at least) three fundamental flaws in this article (and similar arguments): 1. It confuses the sexual revolution with the issue of contraception, 2. It equates correlation with causation, and 3. it is a consequentialist argument .
  1. There is a distinct difference between the sexual revolution and the issue of the morality of ABC. The sexual revolution was a moral revolution, not a technological revolution. It was a rejection of conventional moral standards and an acceptance of the idea that sex was a pleasure to be enjoyed to the fullest independent of marriage and family. The sexual revolution would have proceeded if the Pill had never been invented. Playboy Magazine and other harbingers of the sexual revolution were on the newsstands years before the advent of the Pill.
There was no contraceptive revolution, contraceptives were already available. The Pill, which happened to coincide with the sexual revolution, was an innovation in birth control technology. Did it support the sexual revolution? Absolutely! Just as a 100% effective NFP would have, and existing contraceptives did. The Pill was just significantly more convenient and reliable from a female perspective. But it was the sexual revolution that lead to the widespread use of contraceptives outside of marriage and even to their improper use within marriage
  1. Any university level statistics textbook will state that correlation does not imply causation. Yet defenders of HV, having no basis for HVs edicts in right reason, truth or reality, try to assert a causality between ABC and abortion, divorce, illigitimate children, male alcoholism, etc., wherever a correlation can be found. This is a false argument
    The 50s and 60s were a time that saw the confluence of a number of sociological trends: millions of soldiers back from WWII, the rise of the sexual revolution, improving economic conditions, women entering universities and the workplace in greater numbers, a better educated laity unwilling to just pay, pray and obey, the development of the Pill, the development of NFP, etc. The causality behind the effects predicted by Paul VI lies in the sexual revolution, not in contraception per se. The availability of contraception or the Pill did not cause the sexual revolution, it was already ongoing. There was a sexual revolution following WWI the roaring 20s - but no innovation in contraceptive technology preceded or caused it. The rhythm method introduced in 1930 was an innovation in contraception methodology. Yet, no sexual revolution followed its introduction and Pius XII sanctioned its use 21 years later reversing Casti Connubii. I have seen no evidence that the 1930 Lambeth Conferences sanction of contraception led to all of the dire consequences that Paul VI predicted. That took the post-WWII sexual revolution. This articles assumption that correlation means causation is a false basis for understanding the effects of contraception on behavior.
  2. This argument is a consequentialist argument. That raises two problems. First, John Paul II in Veritatis Splendor (pg 41) and HV24 reject this type of argument. Second, to be valid, a consequentialist argument would have to correctly identify the causes of the consequences. This article falsely identifies contraception, instead of correctly identifying the sexual revolution as the cause of the consequences that Paul VI warned about.
    HV was about the morality of married Catholics using ABC. But this has gotten lost in the retrospectives. John Paul II says that the morality of an act must be judged by the nature of the act itself and not by its consequences. Yet HVs supporters are trying to justify its edicts w.r.t. married Catholics using ABC, by citing what it falsely claims are its consequences.
Suppose, that Paul VI had followed the advice of the Commission (Majority) Report, sanctioned the use of ABC by married Catholics for the same right reasons that Pius XII sanctioned rhythm. Then the Church might not be so divided and the last 40 years and John Paul IIs papacy could have focused on fighting the real cause of the current conditions the sexual revolution - instead of pretending that eliminating contraceptives would solve the worlds problems. The cause of the problems lies in the hearts of people, not in whether Catholic couples use NFP or ABC. The Church squandered its moral authority when it issued HV, and left itself impotent in the fight against the sexual revolution. That fight will be won or lost in peoples hearts not in the drugstores.

Suppose that the Pill didnt exist, but Dr. Hilgers had perfected NFP in the 1960s so that it was 100% effective as Pius XII and Paul VI recommended. Then the sexual revolution had adopted NFP, and women and college girls simply scheduled their adultery and fornications according to their fertility schedules. Would defenders of HV now be arguing that based on those consequences, Pius XII and Paul VI were wrong? That NFP caused these consequences? No. They would be arguing that the problem was in peoples hearts , not in the method that they used to sin**

Any feedback, counterarguments or rebuttals be appreciated.
 
I’m back again, as you may recall I’ve been having an on-and-off debate with this protagonist over the issue of Humanae Vitae, NFP and ABC. Well with the 40th anniversay of HV did a review of a article for the latest issue of First Things the article is titled "
The Vindication of Humanae Vitae" by Mary Eberstadt.
For reference purpose here’s a link to the article in question:
firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=6262

My progagonist’s critique is as follows:
**There are (at least) three fundamental flaws in this article (and similar arguments): 1. It confuses the sexual revolution with the issue of contraception, 2. It equates correlation with causation, and 3. it is a consequentialist argument . **

Any feedback, counterarguments or rebuttals be appreciated.
His #1 point, I think, is correct. Contraceptive methods existed prior to the pill. I would suspect that the “revolution” would not have been so rapid without it but that isn’t material here.
#2 … he is correct to a point, one can not state cause and effect because they happen at the same time. However, we can look at the results of the cause and determine if they had an effect. So raw numbers, no. Studies, yes. So even as he says, the pill accellertated the situation but did not create the issue. If we can show that “the devolution” contributed to the ailments of society, then we’re back on track.

I think the operative saying here is “figures don’t lie, liar’s figure.”

#3:hypno: This may take a while longer.
 
Here’s the latest from my exchange with the progagonist on this issue. As you will see his comments are very revealing:

**Him: God’s will w.r.t. the “inseparable conection” is best known by the fact that He created humans so that it would not be true.

And God’s will confirms the discernment of the 95% of married Catholics who use birth control, who have direct knowledge and experience of conjugal life, and who, following their consciences based on that knowledge and experience, also reject HV24.and HV in general.
Me: “*But if your right in what you say w.r.t God’s will then there are some inexcapale implications you must confront: In the early part of the 20th century 95% of Catholics would have been opposed to the practice of ABC”. *

Him: Accepting 95% for the sake of argument, it would be correct to say that 95% accepted the Churchs position on the morality of birth control
Me:" *Also, up to the early 20th century all christian churches, sects and denominations were opposed to ABC." <<
This may be true. It is also true that until the second half of the 20th century, the Catholic Church had never formally condemned slavery.
Me: 1. * Dose God determine his will by sticking out his thumb and see which way the wind the blows? So God therefore may have said one thing on a issue then after centuries or thousands of years he changes his mind and reverses himself on that issue, thus God is like a Democratic presidential candidate; he’s a flip-flopper*?! <<
I believe Catholic theology teaches that God’s will is immutable. Sounds right to me.
  1. Me: *Or that all Christiandom was so incompetent that they couldn’t acurately figure out God’s will until the later half of the 20th century? But any of these of implications would be as what Cardinal John Henry Newman would say is “An intolerable paradox.” * Well what say you? <<
I say its nonsense, not an intolerable paradox. Christiandom is learning Gods will little by little as time goes by. Underscore that this issue is our understanding of Gods immutable will, not whether or not Gods changes His mind.

But, lets be specific. To understand Gods will w.r.t. conjugal morality through His creation of humans, humans first had to reach an adequate understanding of the human reproductive system in all of its aspects (physiological, psychological and spiritual) as God created it. Christiandom was not competent to do so until the first half of the 20th century. While their knowledge is not complete, in the first half of the 20th century, they arrived at a sufficiently comprehensive understanding, to also appreciate that God did not will that procreation be the only or even the primary purpose of conjugal intercourse, or that the two ends of conjugal intercourse be inseparably connected. Hence, Pope Pius XII in 1951 reversed the Churchs 2,000 year old teaching against any form of birth control and sanctioned rhythm to exclude (separate) procreation from conjugal intercourse. **

I know there’s a least a few flaws in his arguments, specifically what are the flaws and what is rebuttal to his arguments?
 
But, lets be specific. To understand Gods will w.r.t. conjugal morality through His creation of humans, humans first had to reach an adequate understanding of the human reproductive system in all of its aspects (physiological, psychological and spiritual) as God created it. Christiandom was not competent to do so until the first half of the 20th century. While their knowledge is not complete, in the first half of the 20th century, they arrived at a sufficiently comprehensive understanding, to also appreciate that God did not will that procreation be the only or even the primary purpose of conjugal intercourse, or that the two ends of conjugal intercourse be inseparably connected. Hence, Pope Pius XII in 1951 reversed the Churchs 2,000 year old teaching against any form of birth control and sanctioned rhythm to exclude (separate) procreation from conjugal intercourse.
I know there’s a least a few flaws in his arguments, specifically what are the flaws and what is rebuttal to his arguments?

Don’t let him lead you around. He is arguing dishonestly and expecting you to chase him and argue on his terms. Everytime you answer one of his objections satisfactorally, he will drop it (not concede it) and persue another that he believes will have more success. It is a cowardly technique that a fool can use to convince himself that he is intelligent. It is a game not worth playing.

I would call him on it and tell him he is dancing around and that if he wants to have an intelligent debate, he can pick any one claim he wants to make (instead of a dozen unsupported claims) and I would reply. Then he would have to acknowledge my response and have the decency to reply to it. Otherwise, he is just toying with you.

In that spirit, I will reply to this quoted objection, though I’m not sure he’s honest enough to try to argue both of these at the same time.

He is making 2 claims here that I’ll take in turn:
1st Faliscious Claim: Paul VI taught something contrary to the previous teaching of the Church.

Basic Response: Find any teaching in the history of the Church that is contradicted by Paul VI. The burden of proof is on him, and though he talks a big game, he is not bringing documents to the table.

In depth:
He is making a claim that the lack of definite teaching contradicts definite teaching by Paul VI. It is a silly argument. The closest example I can think of is this: My 3 year old just wants to eat ice cream, but we tell her that she has to eat her dinner first. When she’s older, we explain nutrition to her, and she still has to eat her dinner first. It would be absurd to argue, that this new “knowledge of nutrition” contradicted the rule (ie. teaching) that you eat your dinner before ice cream. This is exactly the argument he is makeing.

In the Old Testement, we can see Onan using a form of birth control and God killing him for it. He was clearly trying to sepparate the pleasure of sex from the possibility of conception. This is something that humans have known how to do for thousands of years. We didn’t invent contraception in the 1920’s. This is also something that the Church has condemned perpetually. Paul VI just wrote an eloquent explaination of why it was condemned.

2nd Faliscious Claim: NFP separates Procreation from conjugal intercourse.

Basic Response: He does not understand that even though “the procreative and unitive goods of conjugal love are insepperable,” it does not follow that all acts of conjugal love must result in a baby. The real problem is trying to actively frustrate one of these goods.

In depth:
We are talking about acts that are sinful here. The Church has always stated that contraception (the active frustration of the procreative good of sex) is inherently evil. An act that pretends to be an act of conjugal love but slams the door on life is not an act of conjugal love. That act is a sin. Every time you have contracepted sex, you are sinning (Each act is a sin). He needs to understand this pricipal before you can explain how NFP is different.

Now, this is going to take some logic, which presuposes intelectual honesty. If you don’t think he’s going to be honest, then there isn’t much point in trying to explain it to him as he will willfully misunderstand you. But, I won’t let that stop me from laying out the truth here.

Before we dive too deeply here, let’s define “inherently wrong.” Something that is inherently wrong is intrinsically evil. It can never be good. An act that is inherently wrong can never be participated in “in good conscience.”
  1. An act of conjugal love during the woman’s natural time of infertility is still an act of conjugal love (ie: it is not a sin, it is licit behavior for spouses.)
This should be self evident, otherwise, you would have to confess every time you made love to your spouse without concieving a child. The Church has never taught that this was a sin. The Church has also never taught celibacy after menopause, which must logically follow if you do not accept 1.
  1. Obstaining from conjugal love is not a sin.

    Again, this should be self evident. If it were a sin, then you would have to confess every night that you didn’t make love to your spouse.
If we can establish 1 & 2, and put them together, we have proven NFP is not “inherently wrong.” It’s not exactly rocket science but so many people try so hard to misunderstand it.

Now, he may start arguing NFP can be abused, and he would be right. Like almost anything else, It can be abused, but it is not inherently wrong.

You would have to be an idiot to argue that Ice Cream is inherently evil just because some people are gluttons.

I would encourage everyone to read Humanae Vitae for good guidelines of how to use NFP in a morally acceptable way. 👍

God bless,

~ Red_Beard
 
Him: That question is best answered by the 95% of Catholic married couples who reject HV’s edicts and use ABC. .
I have seen this statistic quoted quite often. Is there an online source for it?
 
His #1 point, I think, is correct. Contraceptive methods existed prior to the pill. I would suspect that the “revolution” would not have been so rapid without it but that isn’t material here.
#2 … he is correct to a point, one can not state cause and effect because they happen at the same time. However, we can look at the results of the cause and determine if they had an effect. So raw numbers, no. Studies, yes. So even as he says, the pill accellertated the situation but did not create the issue. If we can show that “the devolution” contributed to the ailments of society, then we’re back on track.

I think the operative saying here is “figures don’t lie, liar’s figure.”

#3:hypno: This may take a while longer.
Hi, it’s me again. Just a reminder how’s #3 progressing? If you have any further points to add please feel free to share when you can. 🙂 Peace in Christ
 
I have seen this statistic quoted quite often. Is there an online source for it?
I have seen it too several places. From Catholic sources! I can’t believe it, though. It’s too high. If 4% are using NFP which may sound low, that would only leave 1% who use nothing and from my experience here on CAF, that would be too low. Because that would not only include those in their fertile years but those beyond the fertile years.
 
I have seen it too several places. From Catholic sources! I can’t believe it, though. It’s too high. If 4% are using NFP which may sound low, that would only leave 1% who use nothing and from my experience here on CAF, that would be too low. Because that would not only include those in their fertile years but those beyond the fertile years.
The figure that I have seen recently is that in the USA 70% of all Catholic women of child bearing age (married or not) use some form of contraception which compares with 64% of all women of childbearing age who use contgraception. This statistic would then imply that Catholic women are using artificial contraception at a rate higher than women in general.
 
Hi, it’s me again. Just a reminder how’s #3 progressing? If you have any further points to add please feel free to share when you can. 🙂 Peace in Christ
Sorry. I had forgotten to come back to this and now it’s a bit late for me… I have thought about it. He is right, again, to a degree. However he falsely disconnects the ties that contraception has with the sexual revolution and the promiscuity that resulted. So maybe tomorrow. Or later today. 😊
 
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