Take it from me Red Beard going into the forum to directly engage Sub is the equivalent of putting you hand in the blender. But that having said I still occassionally spar with Sub, I thought I share you the latest exchange I had w.r.t.the Natural Law argument of Humanae Vite:
BK: Natural Law is clearly brought up in Humanae Vitae in several of its passages: “The Church … teaches that it is necessary that each conjugal act remain ordained in itself to the procreating of human life” (Hv 11). To act otherwise is to “defy the plan and holy will of God” (Hv 13). <<
Sub: If this is the basis in natural law for prohibiting ABC, then this discussion is over since both statements (HV11 and HV13) are demonstrably false. God created non-human animals so that each sexual act is ordained in itself to reproduction. (Bonobos are an exception that proves the rule) But, since God created humans so that procreation is possible for only 25% of the fertility cycle, we know that God created humans so that each conjugal act is not ordained in itself to the procreating of human life. Each conjugal act is ordained in itself (ultimate end) to the propagation of the human species. (See JP II L&R pg 51) The ultimate end, the propagation of the species, has two separate proximate ends - procreation and unification. And God created humans so that the two proximate ends are not “inseparably connected”. HV refutes its own assertion in HV11 when it sanctions NFP, because if each conjugal act remain[ed] ordained in itself to the procreating of human life NFP would not work. The teaching in HV11 that you quote is false. It is not a teaching from natural law, but rather, it is a rejection of God’s will (natural law) as expressed through His act of creation. Note that NFP works by excluding procreation from conjugal acts thus violating HV11.
BK >> To act otherwise is to “defy the plan and holy will of God” (Hv 13). <<
Sub: We have seen above that it is HV11 that defies the plan and holy will of God. Since both HV11 and HV13 contradict God’s will (natural law) and are false, they cannot serve as a valid basis for conjugal morality.
BK >> In fact, Paul VI compares contracepted sex to rape-“a conjugal act imposed on a spouse.” It is not a true act of love when the desires of the spouse are ignored and excluded. In a similar way, ABC ignores and excludes the will of God, the Author of human life. <<
Sub: As we see above, it is HV that ignores and excludes the will of God, the Author of human life.
BK >> He goes on to argue that man “does not have power over his generative faculties as such, for they by their very nature are directed to bringing forth human life, and God is the source of human life.” <<
Sub: We know that God created humans so that conjugal intercourse serves two separate ends. So this statement like others from HV that you quote is false. Note also that if man “does not have power over his generative faculties as such…” NFP would not work.
BK >> If a couple have sex with artificial birth control they do two wrong things:
- they artificially prevent the sexual act achieving one of its natural ends
- they deliberately choose to prevent the sexual act achieving its natural end
So obviously there’s nothing “morally neutral” about ABC. <<
Sub: This is an assertion based on demonstrably false premises from HV, and hence is not a valid conclusion. Note however, that since those practicing NFP deliberately choose to prevent the sexual act achieving its natural end [procreation], your statement condemns their practice of NFP as wrong.
BK >> And finally, It is never lawful to exercise an act and reject the end for which the act is designed. Therefore ABC … would … be immoral. <<
You are now returning to a natural law argument. But, note two things:
- Since God created conjugal intercourse to serve two separate ends in support of a higher, ultimate end, it is congruent with God’s will to exclude one end (procreation) in achieving the second end (unification) in support of the ultimate end (the propagation of the species). This is precisely the purpose of NFP, which purpose is sanctioned by HV.
- If, according to natural law, It is never lawful to exercise an act and reject the end for which the act is designed, then NFP is condemned by natural law since its very purpose is to exclude (reject) procreation from conjugal acts. And HV’s sanction of NFP contradicts natural law.
**As you can see for yourself he’s using the same flawed and flimsey arguments and the same dishonest tactics. So you (or anyone else here) want to give your 2 cents and quick rebuttals your more than welcome. In Christ Bruce K **