Humanae Vitae Debate

  • Thread starter Thread starter BruceK
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I agree that the distinction between NFP and ABC isn’t very convincing. NFP is a form of contraception according to my wife’s OBGYN. It is true that no ecclesiastical bodies approved ABC before 1930 but I doubt that so called “natural” methods of contraception were endorsed either. The traditional Christian view has always been providentialism.
The first time the Holy See formally spoke on the matter of periodic continence to avoid pregnancy was 1853, when the Sacred Penitentiary answered a dubium (a formal request for an official clarification) submitted by the bishop of Amiens, France.

He asked, “Should those spouses be reprehended who make use of marriage only on those days when (in the opinion of some doctors) conception is impossible?” The reply was: “After mature examination, we have decided that such spouses should not be disturbed [or disquieted], provided they do nothing that impedes generation” (quoted in J. Montánchez, Teología Moral 654, my translation).

By the expression “impedes generation,” it is obvious the Vatican meant the use of onanism (or coitus interruptus, now popularly called “withdrawal”), condoms, etc.
 
Periodic or permanent continence (e.g., natural family planning) is not the same as contraception. To equate the two is linguistic confusion.

The Church has consistently taught:
***“the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural power and purpose sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious.” ***(Casti Connubii, 54)
There are three human acts within NFP: planning, abstinence, sex. When one plans, one is not exercising the conjugal act while deliberately (willfully) frustrating its natural purpose. When one abstains, one is not exercising the conjugal act while deliberately (willfully) frustrating its natural purpose. When one has sex (naturally), then one is not exercising the conjugal act while deliberately (willfully) frustrating its natural purpose.

So I don’t see how NFP can be “the same,” morally speaking, as deliberate acts of contraception such as “withdrawal,” or using condoms, the pill, or any other intentional human act which renders sex non-procreative.

Again, it is not evil to “want” to regulate or avoid conception. It is the operation of the “will” that counts. Without the operation of the will, there is no sin.

I “want” many things which I do not “will” (eg, skip work and fly to the bahamas is what I want, but I do not will it). I “will” many things which I do not “want” (eg. get up and go to work).

One using NFP may not “want” children, but they do not “intend” or “will” contrary to conception because their human acts do not render conjugal acts non-procreative. NFP is not an act of will contrary to the procreative purpose of conjugal acts. It is the will, not the want which counts.

There is no inconsistency when one takes a more careful look at the Church teaches.

Non-procreative sex is not immoral. Human acts which render sex non-procreative is immoral.
 
From a natural law point of view, sex has a biological purpose. Sperm has a biological purpose. It belongs where it belongs. Ovulation is designed in such a way for a biological reason. That reason is geared toward procreation. Marital sex is not simply biological, but unitive. However, God does reveal his will for us through biology, too. To indulge in sexual acts while at the same time intentionally acting contrary to that act is a conflict in logic and the purposeful biological design for sex.

When I deliberately engage in conjugal sex, in using such means, I am placing an act that has a definite “goal of the work” (i.e. procreation), and consequently, simply by placing the act, I am willing that generation take place.

However, if I deliberately engage in conjugal sex while through positive and deliberate human act(s) render conjugal sex non-procreative, then this is both to will and not to will something simultaneously. That is contradictory and hence irrational–and consequently immoral.

By abstaining from conjugal sex during times when my wife is most likely to conceive, I am willing to accept procreation if it does happen; I take no positive action–and hence place no will act–to the contrary. That is not the case in artificial birth control or “withdrawal,” (also called Onanism), wherein a contradictory will-act is in fact made.

As an analogy, consider the act of ingestion. Ingestion has a definite biological “goal of the work” which the human physiology is purposefully designed for: digestion. Ingestion is analogous to the consummated conjugal act, each of which has a definite biological goal of the work.

Now consider the act of “purging.” Contraception is to sexual intercourse what purging is to ingestion.

If I were to purge after ingestion, I am placing an act that has a definite goal of the work, and consequently, simply by placing the act, I am willing that digestion take place. Simultaneously, I am taking means (by a willful act) to see that digestion cannot take place. But this is both to will and not to will something simultaneously. And that is contradictory and hence irrational–and consequently immoral.

Since the Church has always understood the conjugal act to be a participation in the creative work of God, the conjugal act has always had a “sacredness” about it. Consequently, the seriousness of violating God’s will in such a sacred act is considered “grave matter.”

In the context of Catholic Moral Theology, “contraception” is not understood as simply “avoiding pregnancy.” Instead, "contraception" is the Catholic sense is understood as "any positive means of preventing conception." Contemporary Moral Theology, Vol. II - Marriage Questions, John Ford, S.J. and Gerard Kelly, S.J., Newman Press, 1964]
 
Bah,

John Paul II & Benedict XVI has agreed with Humanae Vitae, I’m sure if it was contradictory these brilliant theologians would have picked it up. Benedict XVI would have definitely picked up any kind of circular arguments.
Even though Pius XII wasn’t around in 1968, I am certain he agrees with the notions of HV.

End of debate.
 
Even though Pius XII wasn’t around in 1968, I am certain he agrees with the notions of HV.
As Pius XII declared in 1951, the repudiation against contraception is “as valid today as it was yesterday, and it will be the same tomorrow and always, because it does not imply a precept of the human law but is the expression of a law which is natural and divine.” [Pius XII, AAS, 43 (1951), 843].

In the same address, Pius XII speaks of the use of natural periodoc sterility to avoid pregnancy, affirming that it is moral in those cases where “serious motives” exists.
…married couples, who make use of the specific act of their state, nature and the Creator impose the function of providing for the preservation of mankind. This is the characteristic service which gives rise to the peculiar value of their state, the bonum prolis. The individual and society, the people and the State, the Church itself, depend for their existence, in the order established by God, on fruitful marriages. Therefore, to embrace the matrimonial state, to use continually the faculty proper to such a state and lawful only therein, and, at the same time, to avoid its primary duty without a grave reason, would be a sin against the very nature of married life.
Serious motives, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called “indications,” may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life. From this it follows that the observance of the natural sterile periods may be lawful, from the moral viewpoint: and it is lawful in the conditions mentioned. If, however, according to a reasonable and equitable judgment, there are no such grave reasons either personal or deriving from exterior circumstances, the will to avoid the fecundity of their union, while continuing to satisfy to tile full their sensuality, can only be the result of a false appreciation of life and of motives foreign to sound ethical principles. [ibid.]
The above address from Pius XII is specifically cited in Humanae Vitae, 16.
 
HV’s prohibition of ABC has been rejected by the sensus fidelium and will join other doctrines taught for centuries that were reversed, e.g., slavery, usury, freedom of religion, etc…
The doctrines regarding slavery, usury, and freedom of religion were NOT reversed. See here:

Was Catholic moral doctrine on slavery erroneous?

The Red Herring of Usury by David Palm

And with regard to freedom of religion…

Vatican II and Religous Liberty: Continuity or Contradiction?
by Fr. Brian Harrison

Pius IX, Vatican II, and Religious Liberty
by Fr. Brian Harrison

Religious Liberty - Rights versus "tolerance"
by Fr. Brian Harrison
 
"The problem is that HV11 insists that ‘Each and every marital act must remain open to the transmission of life’. But, NFP (the non-artificial method) closes the marital act to the transmission of life, and so is prohibited by HV11. If NFP did not close the conjugal act to the transmission of life, it could not control births.
I don’t see that “quote” anywhere in HV, let alone in HV 11. Instead, HV 11 speaks of maintaining the intrinsic nature of the marital act. NFP does this. ABC doesn’t.

Paul VI, in HV cites Casti Connubii and the teachings of Pius XII. It is clear he is teaching exactly what prior popes have also taught. Any unbiased student of Catholic moral theology in the 1960s should have drawn the same conclusion, that this teaching was irrevocable, and therefore infallible.

According to the 1959 moral theology textbook by John C. Ford, S.J., and Gerard Kelly, S.J., Contemporary Moral Theology Vol. 1: “It is hardly conceivable that the papal teaching on such things as divorce, contraception, the direct killing of the innocent…is anything short of infallible” (p.22).

According to John T. Noonan’s 1965 publication, *Contraception - A History of its Treatment by the Catholic Theolgians and Canonists: *"***Never had it been admitted by a Catholic theologian that complete sexual intercourse might be had in which by deliberation, procreation was excluded." ***(*p.*438).

According to Felix Cappelo, S.J.'s 1933 and 1961 edition of *De Matrimonio, *n. 816, speaking of the teaching of Casti Connubii on the immorality of contraception, he says, “***These very solemn words, uttered ‘in signum legationis divinae,’ obviously are an expression of infallible teaching authority, that is, a definition *ex cathedra.

According to Arthur Vermeersch, S.J., in his 1931 commentary on Casti Connubii, he says that “***the pope wished to put the stamp of his own infallible teaching authority on the traditional teaching of the Church ***” [cited by Ford, Contemporary Moral Theology, Vol II (1964), *p.263-264]

According to A. Piscetta, S.S., and A Gennaro, S.S., in their seventh volume of Elementa theologia moralis published in 1944, they *agree with Vermeersch above on the infallible teaching of Casti Connubii * on the matter.

According to Francis Ter Haar, C.SS.R., in his 1939 text Casus conscientiae, II. De praecipuis hujus aetatis vitiis eorumque remediis, n. 136, speaking of the passage against contraception in Casti Connubii, "this passage of the encyclical, contains a definition by the Roman Pontiff speaking ‘ex cathedra’.

According to Andre’ Snoeck, S.J., in his article"Fecondation inhibee et morale catholique," *Nouvelle revue theologique *75 (1953), 690-702, at p. 700: “***the common opinion in the Church judges that we are here confronted with an irrevocable condemnation of conjugal onanism ***.”

According to John Ford, S.J. and Gerard Kelly, S.J., in their text Contemporary Moral Theology, Vol II - Marriage Questions, published in 1964, “in condemning contraception as intrinsically and gravely immoral, Pius XI was clearly and solemnly declaring a truth already infallibly taught by the universal Church… the main point is to insist on the substantial immutability of the Catholic doctrine on contraception**.” (p.271)

Consequently, according to Catholic moral theology texts of the 30s, 40s, 50s and early 60s, Casti Connubii’s teaching against contraception was unanimously considered irrevocable teaching of the Church. Why Fr. Charles Curran and many other dissidents claimed otherwise tells us more about their own bias than authentic Catholic moral theology.

Furthermore, in Humanae Vitae e Infallibilità (Vatican City, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 1986), Fr. Ermenegildo Lio, O.F.M., affirms the teaching against contraception in Pope Paul VI’s encyclical letter Humanae Vitae is infallible, not merely by virtue of being an instance of the constant, ordinary and universal magisterium of the Popes and Catholic Bishops against this practice, but because the encyclical itself contains (in article 14) **an ex cathedra definition. **Fr. Lio is a professor in Rome’s Pontifical Lateran University, was a peritus at Vatican Council II, and was an adviser to Pope Paul VI over the birth control issue. John Paul II wrote him letter thanking him for the presentation of his book, which was published by the Vatican Press.

I think the thesis that Humanae Vitae is merely a “personal opinion” of the pope which can be licitly dissented with has lost all credibility among the Catholic faithful, clung to only by notoriously dissident theologians.
 
Good Daughter;3135338:
The rythm system is not contraception.

I would love to ask thinkers like Noonan (or your dissenting friend) if they consider the marriage act between a couple who is expecting a baby to be "open to the transmission of life
". If you would ask your friend what he thinks about this, I’d be interested in his reply. (My guess is he’d answer “no”, in which case he’d be wrong. Explaining why he’s wrong might convince him of the truth and consistency of HV.)
GD, here’s my recent exchange with my dissident friend on this very question and this is his answer: “Physiologically sex act by a couple expecting a baby (pregnant wife) is not open to the transmission of ife since there is no possibility of a sperm-ovum interaction which initiates the transmission of life. By intent, it is not open to the transmission of life since a couple with a pregnant wife certainly would not “intend” to initiate a second pregnancy part of the way though a first pregnancy.
But, note that a couple engaging in conjugal intercourse during pregnancy violate HV11’s “open” edict and therefore commit a serious sin - according to HV11.”
So what’s your take on his answer?

Does your friend maintain that a couple who have sex while expecting a baby are violating what is taught in HV?
 
Non-procreative sex is not immoral. Human acts which render sex non-procreative is immoral.
Non-procreative sex is contracepted and it is always immoral, according to Catholic teaching. Non-reproductive sex is not necessarily immoral.
 
BruceK;3159218:
“Open to life” in the sense that phrase is used in Hv simply refers to an unobstructed natural human marital act.

We do not need to be capable of procreation in order to be open to life in that sense.
In other words, we do not need to be capable (or desirous) of reproduction in order to be procreative. The procreative element is always required of Catholics.
 
Non-procreative sex is contracepted and it is always immoral, according to Catholic teaching.
Non-reproductive is more accurate wording. :o If one is sterile and they have sex, their sex is necessarily non-reproductive. They simply have not taken positive step to render it non-reproductive. On the other hand, if they cause their sterility through a pill or some other means intending to contracept, it is immoral. If they did not cause their own sterility intending to contracept, it is NOT immoral.
 
Non-reproductive is more accurate wording. :o If one is sterile and they have sex, their sex is necessarily non-reproductive. They simply have not taken positive step to render it non-reproductive. On the other hand, if they cause their sterility through a pill or some other means intending to contracept, it is immoral. If they did not cause their own sterility intending to contracept, it is NOT immoral.
Exactly:thumbsup:. I learned from other CAF posters that there is a difference between sex that is procreative (always required of Catholics, ultimately our decision) and sex that is reproductive (not always required of Catholics, ultimately God’s decision). This more accurate wording helped me understand Church teaching much better.

I suspect lack of understanding in this area may be a key to Bruce K’s friend’s dissent regarding HV.

I’m wondering, itsjustdave, are you able to explain the difference between the terms “subjectively procreative” and “objectively procreative” as they apply to sex? 1ke touched on this distinction recently in another thread and I think an explanation here might clarify the teachings of HV and illustrate the procreative/reproductive difference.
 
**As I said before, I am having this ongoing debate with catholic dissident over artificial birth control(abc) and Humanae Vitae, the latest claim he makes is this: **"

According to one of the accounts of the Commission proceedings, Pope Paul VI offered to issue an instruction that married couples who use ABC were to be left undisturbed. If it [ABC] was even remotely immoral or amoral, Pope Paul would certainly not have made such an offer."

From Turning Point pg 127:

Later that same day, the majority of the bishops and cardinals gave their formal assent to the Majority Report. … Only one woice was was heard in opposition. Colombo, the Pope’s theologian, said, “His Holiness will never accept the proposition that contraception is not intrinsically evil”. Then he added, “He [the Pope] would agree only to this: a letter to the world’s bishops telling them their people are not to be disturbed. It is not necessary to disturb couples who practice contraception; close your eyes!”
**Is anyone familiar with the book Turning Point and does anyone here know about this claim, as to wheter there’s any truth to it? **:confused:
 
**As I said before, I am having this ongoing debate with catholic dissident over artificial birth control(abc) and Humanae Vitae, the latest claim he makes is this: **"

According to one of the accounts of the Commission proceedings, Pope Paul VI offered to issue an instruction that married couples who use ABC were to be left undisturbed. If it [ABC] was even remotely immoral or amoral, Pope Paul would certainly not have made such an offer."

From Turning Point pg 127:

Later that same day, the majority of the bishops and cardinals gave their formal assent to the Majority Report. … Only one woice was was heard in opposition. Colombo, the Pope’s theologian, said, “His Holiness will never accept the proposition that contraception is not intrinsically evil”. Then he added, “He [the Pope] would agree only to this: a letter to the world’s bishops telling them their people are not to be disturbed. It is not necessary to disturb couples who practice contraception; close your eyes!”
**Is anyone familiar with the book Turning Point and does anyone here know about this claim, as to wheter there’s any truth to it? **:confused:
That isnt your job go track down and verify “claims” like that. As a Catholic you are bound only by what has been officially released (eg Humane Vitae), and thus the dissident must stay within that realm.
 
Then what do you say to the fact that virtually all christians(as well as Jews) were against contraception up to the early 20th century? I think that should tell you something right there. Whether 99% of Catholics disagree with it still doesn’t mean that 99% are right and the Magisterium is wrong. 😦
Even if it’s 100%… 😦

To tell you the truth, it comes down to this:
  1. Either you participate in the God-made fertility/non-fertility cycle, or
  2. You participate in the manmade contraceptive act which overthrows God’s system and design for sexual acts, the most sacrosanct part of the Sacrament of Marriage.
You listen to infallible teaching, or you don’t…

It’s as simple as that. 😦
 
**As I said before, I am having this ongoing debate with catholic dissident over artificial birth control(abc) and Humanae Vitae, the latest claim he makes is this: **"

According to one of the accounts of the Commission proceedings, Pope Paul VI offered to issue an instruction that married couples who use ABC were to be left undisturbed. If it [ABC] was even remotely immoral or amoral, Pope Paul would certainly not have made such an offer."

From Turning Point pg 127:

Later that same day, the majority of the bishops and cardinals gave their formal assent to the Majority Report. … Only one woice was was heard in opposition. Colombo, the Pope’s theologian, said, “His Holiness will never accept the proposition that contraception is not intrinsically evil”. Then he added, “He [the Pope] would agree only to this: a letter to the world’s bishops telling them their people are not to be disturbed. It is not necessary to disturb couples who practice contraception; close your eyes!”
**Is anyone familiar with the book Turning Point and does anyone here know about this claim, as to wheter there’s any truth to it? **:confused:
So, your “friend” wants you to believe this because it’s in a book? How about some proof from a letter or document or something. The burden of proof is on him not you.
 
That isnt your job go track down and verify “claims” like that. As a Catholic you are bound only by what has been officially released (eg Humane Vitae), and thus the dissident must stay within that realm.
Indeed, I never heard of such a claim before and I find it very hard to believe that Paul VI would even remotely consider ABC in any way or under any possible cirumstance.
 
Indeed, I never heard of such a claim before and I find it very hard to believe that Paul VI would even remotely consider ABC in any way or under any possible cirumstance.
Seriously? This is common knowledge. I don’t know Paul VI’s inner decision making process, but before HV was published it most people thought if was far from a forgone conclusion. How to view the pill, which unliike earlier forms of contraception allows for normal ‘completion’ things was particluarly unclear. Many people, including many on the Commission, were surprised at how HV came out.

That said, none of that changes the authority of the document. But its simply revisionism to say that it was not a debated issue, or that under no circumstances could it have been decided differently. Why have a seventy member commission study an issue for three years if it is already decided?
 
Seriously? This is common knowledge. I don’t know Paul VI’s inner decision making process, but before HV was published it most people thought if was far from a forgone conclusion. How to view the pill, which unliike earlier forms of contraception allows for normal ‘completion’ things was particluarly unclear. Many people, including many on the Commission, were surprised at how HV came out.

That said, none of that changes the authority of the document. But its simply revisionism to say that it was not a debated issue, or that under no circumstances could it have been decided differently. Why have a seventy member commission study an issue for three years if it is already decided?
**I am well aware of the fact that is was an issue of debate and that the majority of those Commission were in favor of changing its stand on contraception but what I was talking about is Pope Paul IV himself; here’s what I said, read cerfully: < I never heard of such a claim before and I find it very hard to believe that Paul VI would even remotely consider ABC in any way or under any possible cirumstance.>The crux of the matter is this; is there any evidence that the Pope was possibly leaning in that direction? **
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top