Humans are not sinners!!

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Well, I am glad to see you on this thread, Gregory. This discussion had become rather odd:confused: I was begining to wonder if you had started a cult since the last time I saw you on these forums.🙂 I have to admit, I wondered why you needed defending against people ***not ***saying bad things against you.

Anyway, welcome.
 
Gregory, I dont presume to know a thing about you other than your intelligence and your engaging manner.

I hope you take no offense to to my statements.

As always, I find you to be a pleasure here on the forums.
 
Loginus is not a Catholic. You should not be so confused. I am sure he will explain to you what he means by what he said.

His posts are very respectful and I think we should be in kind to him.
Thankyou.

TO Manny, to clarify, none of these views are currently held by the Catholic church (as you wouldnt be catholic if you did :P)

I was merely offering some views that would suggest either sin is non-existant as everything is pre-ordained and so free-will is non-existant (I may be wrong but I believe some protestant denomination believe in destiny)
That sin doesnt exist humans are slaves to nature (Dont know if any religion holds these views aside from certain Atheists)
And the third option is that sin is subjective as moralityis democratic as opposed to universal

Hope this clears that up 🙂
 
Loginus is not a Catholic. You should not be so confused. I am sure he will explain to you what he means by what he said.

His posts are very respectful and I think we should be in kind to him.
Oh, I have no problem in being kind to him, I just don’t care to really hear an explanaton of this. It just sounds like mumbo jumbo to me.
 
Dear Gregory,

Minor point, I dont use the word born with regard to Adam and Eve.
I know its not a large issue, and certainly not one that will create a stumbling block for anyone here but I prefer created just to avoid the imagery that may result from that.
 
There seems to be many preconceptions about the Catholic and Orthodox stance on this topic. There also seems to be many assumptions about my position here that are not born out in fact.

I do not have horns. I’m not a schismatic nor a heretic.

For those who have defended me I do appreciate it. Perhaps we can all learn something here.
No one claim you are. We just think you misunderstood Catholicism as a whole regarding the nature of sin.
Let’s set a simple stage.
  1. Were Adam and Eve born sinless and free from sickness and death?
Adam and Eve were created not born. They were created sinless, free from sickness and death. It was not until they break God’s law that forbid them to eat the fruit from the Tree of Life. With Adam’s sin, sin came into the world, and thus death.
  1. Were they human?
They are human.
  1. If they were to sin by partaking of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil were they to die? Did they, us, die?
They grow old and died, and so did they descendant. God made promise that he would send a messiah to save us from our sins. He form a covenant with Abraham, the Father of Our faiths. From Abraham would be nation, Israel. Israel would have a King to rule. This King is King David. God said that the messiah would come from his lineage.

Jesus is from the Davidic line and inherited the Kingdom. As you know, the NT revealed the OT prophecies. It was fulfilled. God became flesh and dwell as man. He live, eat, drink, joke, made friends, heal the sick, raise the dead, made the blind see. He then was condemned to death, only to rise from the dead and destroyed sin.

Through Jesus, humanity is saved from their sins. Peter said, "Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
  1. What preserves us now?
Don’t presume you know my answers to these questions. Rather look deeply at the principles of our faith and answer the questions without suspicion or guile if you wish a sensible discussion.

Though we are sinners, we are called by Jesus to love him, love our neighbor and obey all they he had commanded us. To answer your question, God’s grace preserves us. Yet through our free will, humans can break the commandment and sin.

One last question:
  1. Have any of you read the definitive work on Christology and Salvation by St. Athanasius, “The Divine Dilemma and the Incarnation of God”?
Nope, I have not. Though if you want to prove something that he said was infallible in terms of faith and morale, I doubt it. He isn’t a Pope. He is the Bishop of Alexandria and Defender of the Trinity, and help made list of the 27 books of the NT.

.
CDL
 
Dear Gregory,

Minor point, I dont use the word born with regard to Adam and Eve.
I know its not a large issue, and certainly not one that will create a stumbling block for anyone here but I prefer created just to avoid the imagery that may result from that.
Thanks for the catch. I was thinking of other things and misstyped. They were of course created not born.

CDL
 
No one claim you are. We just think you misunderstood Catholicism as a whole regarding the nature of sin.
Adam and Eve were created not born. They were created sinless, free from sickness and death. It was not until they break God’s law that forbid them to eat the fruit from the Tree of Life. With Adam’s sin, sin came into the world, and thus death.

yes, I recognize my error in speaking about their birth rather than their creation.
They are human.
Well here’s the rub. They were human. Death was not part of being a human because sin is not part of being human.
They grow old and died, and so did they descendant. God made promise that he would send a messiah to save us from our sins. He form a covenant with Abraham, the Father of Our faiths. From Abraham would be nation, Israel. Israel would have a King to rule. This King is King David. God said that the messiah would come from his lineage.
If sin and death are part of being alive and human then why would there be a need for a Messiah. If sin and death are not part of being human then the sin that was committed started our death. The sin of Adam and Eve brought death not life. Brought a sinking beneath humanity not humanity. We lost in Adam and Eve’s failure our humanity.
Jesus is from the Davidic line and inherited the Kingdom. As you know, the NT revealed the OT prophecies. It was fulfilled. God became flesh and dwell as man. He live, eat, drink, joke, made friends, heal the sick, raise the dead, made the blind see. He then was condemned to death, only to rise from the dead and destroyed sin.
Hmm… Are you suggesting that I did not know this?
Through Jesus, humanity is saved from their sins. Peter said, "Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I guess then that you have now proved my point. Christ redeemed humanity. Through baptism humanity, sanctity, is brought back to each person who is baptized. Life has been restored, i.e., we are once again human. Now, we choose either to remain human or to sin again and thus choose death and subhumanity again. If we choose to live in Christ and eschew sin we remain human and better still we move toward the destiny God has always had for humanity. To live with God forever.
  1. What preserves us now?
No answer?
Though we are sinners, we are called by Jesus to love him, love our neighbor and obey all they he had commanded us. To answer your question, God’s grace preserves us. Yet through our free will, humans can break the commandment and sin.
Of course. Just like Adam and Eve. When we choose sin we choose death. Read St. Paul’s first epistle to the Corinthians chapter 15.
:
Nope, I have not. Though if you want to prove something that he said was infallible in terms of faith and morale, I doubt it. He isn’t a Pope. He is the Bishop of Alexandria and Defender of the Trinity, and help made list of the 27 books of the NT.
I could say as the Sean Connery figure said in the Untouchables “You’ve come to a gun fight with a knife.” But I won’t.

CDL

.
CDL
 
Dear Gregory,

I am sorry to ask you this, but I am at a loss to find this thread that prompted the Original Post. Do you recall where I can find it so I can get up to speed?:o
 
This theology of human salvation, or soteriology, has become in many ways the foundation of later Alexandrian and Orthodox Christian teachings concerning human re-demption and restoration. Not every point here was fully developed. For example, the concept of divini-zation or deification, although explicit here, would see much further development in later writers such as St. Gregory of Nyssa, Pseudo-Dionysius, and so forth.Corresponding to this soteriology, especially the concept of divinization, is the need to have the union of true humanity and true divinity in the Incarnate Christ. This is christology, or the Christian theology concerning the interrelation between humanity and divinity in Christ. One finds in the Incarnate Christ true humanity and true divinity united with the eternal Word as His one subject, or “I.” St. Athanasius’ terminology is still immature since he preceded the christological controversies by several decades. His frequent references to the Word indwelling the body ) as an instrument could be exaggerated, as it was later by Apollinarius, in such a way as to deny that the Incarnate Christ had a human soul. This certainly is not St. Athanasius’ intention as seen from his many references to Christ becoming man in On the Incarnation.45Christ seems here to be assuming more than a soulless body, although this point is not specifically spelled out. Indeed, such a phrase taken literally might indicate change or confusion in the two natures, but this was hardly St. Athanasius’ intention. In the Incarnate Christ, true God and true man met, but St. Athanasius’ terminology is undeveloped and immature. His later work, Tomus ad Anti-ochenos (362), seems more clearly to indicate a human soul in Christ, although this point is not devel-oped in any detail. Fuller development of christological theology would have to wait for later theolo-gians as St. Cyril of Alexandria, Leontius of Jerusalem, and St. Maximus the Confessor. The notion of Christ’s complete and divinized human nature in total agreement and united with the Word of God in the hypostasis (- subsistence or instance) of the latter would take about two more centuries to develop.46Nonetheless, the basic concept of the union of humanity and divinity in Christ Whose subject was that of the Divine Word is here and becomes the basic impulse for later Alexandrian and Eastern Orthodox christologies

st-philip.net/presentations/redemptive_plan.pdf
 
dosdog- I think the edit button works for about 10-15 minutes. If you want to remove the stuff I am sure you did not intend to have in that post this is the time to do it.

🙂

I am talking about the stuff that is not letters that somehow got in there.
 
Greg,

I did answer the question what preserves us now?

Answer: Though we are sinners, we are called by Jesus to love him, love our neighbor and obey all they he had commanded us. To answer your question, God’s grace preserves us. Yet through our free will, humans can break the commandment and sin.
 
Gregory,

I’m going have to take this one at time just to get to point.

You type:
If sin and death are part of being alive and human then why would there be a need for a Messiah. If sin and death are not part of being human then the sin that was committed started our death. The sin of Adam and Eve brought death not life. Brought a sinking beneath humanity not humanity. We lost in Adam and Eve’s failure our humanity.
Sin and death are part of our humanity. Do we not have a free will to obey God? When we sin, do we not by choice reject him? How do we restore our salvation? Well, we repent. Catholics have the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and I recalled the Orthodox Church also have a confess. Why do we need to go to confession, if you say, we are not sinners?

Adam and Eve sin did brought death, I’m in agreement with that.
Of course. Just like Adam and Eve. When we choose sin we choose death. Read St. Paul’s first epistle to the Corinthians chapter 15.
Which verse? I reading 1st Corinthians 15

Do you want me to quote the entire chapter?
 
Gregory,

I’m going have to take this one at time just to get to point.

You type:

Sin and death are part of our humanity. Do we not have a free will to obey God? When we sin, do we not by choice reject him? How do we restore our salvation? Well, we repent. Catholics have the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and I recalled the Orthodox Church also have a confess. Why do we need to go to confession, if you say, we are not sinners?

Adam and Eve sin did brought death, I’m in agreement with that.

Which verse? I reading 1st Corinthians 15

Do you want me to quote the entire chapter?
Unless God absolutely failed in both His creation and His redemption sin and death are NOT part of humanity. I Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

CDL

BTW I note that dosdog has done some research for which I’m most appreciative. The comments go further than this case but I will get back to them.
 
Manny,
In Matthew 19:25–it says when the disciples heard Jesus refer to the camel with the eye of the needle, they said “who master who can be saved”? And Jesus replied “For human beings, this is impossible, but for god all things are possible.”

Doesn’t this imply we will not be saved?
 
Manny,
In Matthew 19:25–it says when the disciples heard Jesus refer to the camel with the eye of the needle, they said “who master who can be saved”? And Jesus replied “For human beings, this is impossible, but for god all things are possible.”

** Doesn’t this imply we will not be saved?**
Where did you come up this this conclusion?
 
Unless God absolutely failed in both His creation and His redemption sin and death are NOT part of humanity. I Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

CDL
I read the full context of 1 Corinthians 15:56 and the presiding verses before it.

From my understanding of what the 1 Corinthians 15:56, Paul speaks about the relations between sin, death, and asking the Corinthians to “There, my beloved, brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.”

God did not failed in his creation, and redemptive works. As I stated numerous times that, as mortal men and women, we have a free will do “right and wrong.” By doing the right, we are rewarded, by doing the wrong, we are condemned.

Suppose you are right that we humans are not sinners then how to you explain Matthew 25:31-46?

“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all his angels with him, the he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be separate them from one another as sheperd separates the sheep and the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right, and the goat at his left. Then the King will say to those on his right hand, “Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world, for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, when I was a stranger and you welcome me, and I was naked you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.” Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and feed thee, or thirsty and give drink, And when did we see thee a stranger, and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison, and visit thee?” And the King will answer them, “Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.” Then He will say to those on his left hand, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger, and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison you did not visit me.” Then they also will answer, “Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked or sick, and did not minister to thee?” Then He will answer them, “Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.” And they will go into the eternal punishment, but the righteous into the eternal life.”

As you can see. God divided the sheep and the goat. The sheep are righteous men and women who remain obedient to God’s will and by doing good deeds. The Goat are the sinners who did nothing. If you say humans are not sinners then who are goats in the parable?
 
Bella,

I think it means that anything is possible with God. But we all, and especially the rich, carry baggage that makes it difficult to get into the kingdom. Much has to be sloughed off. But though we have an impossible time on our own to give up the baggage. With God we can.

CDL
 
Manny,
In Matthew 19:25–it says when the disciples heard Jesus refer to the camel with the eye of the needle, they said “who master who can be saved”? And Jesus replied “For human beings, this is impossible, but for god all things are possible.”

Doesn’t this imply we will not be saved?
I’m did not imply that we aren’t save. The point of this thread is that we acknowledge we are sinners and need God’s grace to be saved.

For our part, with the help of God’s sancifying grace, we can avoid sinning and do good works in light with faith. Should we sin, we have a moral duty to repent through confession and restore our relationship with God.

From what I gather from Gregory he believes humans are not sinners.
 
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