Humans having children and Hell

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Nooj said:
Where does he or she go if she was never born in the first place? For example, if the baby was stillborn.
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I think it is generally understood that they go to Heaven, even though there is not an official position on it. Life begins at conception, so there is no difference between an unborn baby and a born one.
 
Nooj said:
What if God wanted you to do it? This is the claim of those people who bomb abortion clinics.
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When voices in your head tell you to kill, and the voice tells you it is God it is time to seek professional help. Unless your name is Abraham of course.😉
 
StrawberryJam said:
You have no assurance you are in fact doing any such thing. The ability remains for the person to have a full life and still have a harmonious unbroken relationship with him at the time of death without such actions on your part. If you have done anything, you have done something not appointed to you to do. And, you still end up in jail. You say you would find that worth it now, but if you had time to re-think your position you would most certainly see the flaws. After all, you would have a lot of time and unpleasantries to do just that.
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If we accept that a baptized infant goes directly to heaven upon death, and that a person who goes to confession is cleared of mortal sin, I do have such an assurance. And the inconvenience to me is of no moment. I’m talking about a pure act of self-sacrifice (according to the hypothetical). The purpose of the exercise is to determine why my proposed act is wrong regardless of the consequences to me.
 
Impertinens said:
Because we are on Earth for a purpose, and that purpose is not - or not only - “die and go to Heaven”. The material universe is in a state of war between the forces of good and these of evil, and what you are suggesting is tantamount to shooting other soldiers in their legs in order to prevent them from falling in battle.
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Oh, but going to heaven is by far the most important thing. Now if I wind up in heaven, thanks to the actions of an individual who endangered his own soul to get me there, don’t I owe that individual a debt of gratitude when I consider the alternative, even if I didn’t fulfill some purpose here on earth?
 
JackQ said:
If we accept that a baptized infant goes directly to heaven upon death, and that a person who goes to confession is cleared of mortal sin, I do have such an assurance. And the inconvenience to me is of no moment. I’m talking about a pure act of self-sacrifice (according to the hypothetical). The purpose of the exercise is to determine why my proposed act is wrong regardless of the consequences to me.
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Sorry, Are you asking me if we need your God to tell us that killing babies in the name of your God is wrong? Correct me if I have lost the plot.
 
reggieM said:
If I’m reading that correctly, I think this is the correct answer that JackQ was looking for with his question. We are not appointed (permitted by God) to kill children in order to put them in heaven. That’s not the only reason why we don’t do such a thing, but it’s a major factor.
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ReggieM,

You were the only catholic here that saw one large point.

He that claims or gives all life, is the only right taker of that life.
God never gave the pass to any of the converted gentiles to take life.
 
StrawberryJam said:
Sorry, Are you asking me if we need your God to tell us that killing babies in the name of your God is wrong? Correct me if I have lost the plot.
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Well, your question is somewhat misconceived addressed to a Catholic. We don’t think of right and wrong as something God decrees so much as right, or righteousness, being intrinsic to God’s nature. Otherwise you would end up with this conundrum: does God forbid something because it is wrong (in which case there is a law over and above God), or is it wrong because God forbids it (in which case right and wrong are arbitrary–God could have made it another way).

With that in mind, I will try to address your question. As Catholics we understand that right and wrong exists independently of what we think about it, and that what we need to know about right and wrong has been revealed to the Church. Nonetheless, we consider it a worthwhile undertaking to try and understand the nature of right and wrong. So here we already know what the right and wrong thing to do is in the situation presented. The question is: why? The trick is to come up with an answer that doesn’t simply restate the already known conclusion, such as “it is opposed to the law of God.”
 
Well, if parents do their job right, their children probably won’t have this problem.

Besides, its like should parents have kids knowing they could one day be murderers, or rapists or theives. No one knows. Its really quite assassine to dwell on this. I mean, really, what if everyone said “Okay, lets all get sterilised so no new children risk damnation”.

Where would the human race be then? Extinct in a generation or so, that’s where.
 
JackQ said:
Well, your question is somewhat misconceived addressed to a Catholic. We don’t think of right and wrong as something God decrees so much as right, or righteousness, being intrinsic to God’s nature. Otherwise you would end up with this conundrum: does God forbid something because it is wrong (in which case there is a law over and above God), or is it wrong because God forbids it (in which case right and wrong are arbitrary–God could have made it another way).

With that in mind, I will try to address your question. As Catholics we understand that right and wrong exists independently of what we think about it, and that what we need to know about right and wrong has been revealed to the Church. Nonetheless, we consider it a worthwhile undertaking to try and understand the nature of right and wrong. So here we already know what the right and wrong thing to do is in the situation presented. The question is: why? The trick is to come up with an answer that doesn’t simply restate the already known conclusion, such as “it is opposed to the law of God.”
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

A God is not needed to understand right and wrong. A God is needed to understand what gets that God mad.
 
vera_dicere said:
Well, if parents do their job right, their children probably won’t have this problem.

Besides, its like should parents have kids knowing they could one day be murderers, or rapists or theives. No one knows. Its really quite assassine to dwell on this. I mean, really, what if everyone said “Okay, lets all get sterilised so no new children risk damnation”.

Where would the human race be then? Extinct in a generation or so, that’s where.
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No, the human race would go on. The believers in supernatural things like eternal damnation would be more at risk for extinction if they used poor logic like this. Not to mention, many of them would be in prison for life if they did kill children using the justification they were sparing them eternal torture.
We won’t see enough of them go out and do it though, so I guess we can stop hoping for an end to such flawed thinking.
 
StrawberryJam said:
ReggieM,

You were the only catholic here that saw one large point.

He that claims or gives all life, is the only right taker of that life.
God never gave the pass to any of the converted gentiles to take life.
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Thanks, Strawberry. I’ve been accustomed to disagreeing with you so I’m glad I read what you posted more carefully. 🙂 It was a very good point.
 
Impertinens said:
Hence, and considering that God is benevolent and merciful - we know as a fact that He accepts last minute repentances, for example -, I dare say that the potential gain of being admitted to Heaven vastly offsets the potential loss of being damned.
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Can you explain “being admitted to Heaven”? I sounds like getting into a sporting event. Where is it, and do we need tickets?
 
Nooj said:
Quite possibly. Is that a bad thing?
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That sounds like an ironic comment. 🙂
If right and wrong, good and bad are human constructs alone, then they’re subjective and ultimately meaningless.

In this case, we wouldn’t know what you mean by “a bad thing” at all.
 
Computer8 said:
Why should humans choose to have children if there’s a possibility their child will choose Hell?
If existence in Hell (for a human) is worse than not being born at all (sorry if I’m understanding that wrong) isn’t it better for humans to choose not to have children at all?

Thanks in advance for any help received in answering my questions.
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Because to have children is God’s plan for human beings. Part of this plan are that humans be saved and end up in Heaven.

As for the other possibility… I believe God is kind of a bit wiser so He knows what to do !
 
Having children is an act of FAITH. It’s about participating in God’s plan, trusting His plan, and challenging oneself to live His principles while engaged in the “growth experience” that is parenting.

There are no guaranteed outcomes – only trust in God and the willingness to say “yes” to the path He places in front of us, even without knowing where that path will lead. Whether or not my children choose Heaven or Hell is not something I can control. My responsibility is to raise them in faith, to provide them an example of what living in faith is, to pray for them, teach, and admonish them in accordance with the Word of God, and at the same time to acknowledge God’s sovereignty in their lives and mine, take my hands off the outcome, and allow God to work in their lives in HIs way and in His time.

So often we are too focused on “controlling” and on outcomes – being a believer is far more about trusting God than it is about certainty, knowing, hairsplitting, hypothetical scenarios, and intellectual arguments.
 
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