Humans having children and Hell

[Nimeniton]

How can anyone possibly consider this a rational, valid, position. I think you left out, “do not murder” in coming to this conclusion. So apparently you are not using Catholic beliefs, but so truncated private version, to get to this conclusion.

It is quite simple. The Catholic position here is not logically coherent. This is one of the reasons that theologians are employed to attempt to reconcile “apparent” contradictions.

As you have brought up murder, let us remember this is simply illegal killing. The church does not state that all killing is murder. But it is true that it would consider the killing of a child to ensure that it never went to hell as illegal and a mortal sin. What conclusion can we draw from this? Is God playing some sport with men’s souls that they should live long enough to die in a state of mortal sin? The Bible states that God’s angels throw men into hell but even if we take the modern view that men deliberately choose to torture themselves for eternity by keeping themselves apart from God this raises questions both to God’s omnipotence and his compassion.

And in case the response is that God wants men to choose through free will. Let us remember that God also allows many infants who have not reached the age of reason and, therefore, the ability to choose freely, to die in the millions. It seems he only wants free will for some.

 

[davidv]

It is quite simple. The Catholic position here is not logically coherent. This is one of the reasons that theologians are employed to attempt to reconcile “apparent” contradictions.

It is simple all right. Simply false. This is just wishful thinking on the part of anti-catholic bigotry.

As you have brought up murder, let us remember this is simply illegal killing.

False, murder is immoral killing.

The church does not state that all killing is murder.

Where did I state anything contrary to this?

But it is true that it would consider the killing of a child to ensure that it never went to hell as illegal and a mortal sin. What conclusion can we draw from this?

That it is immoral kill an innocent child for whatever purpose.

Is God playing some sport with men’s souls that they should live long enough to die in a state of mortal sin?

No.

The Bible states that God’s angels throw men into hell but even if we take the modern view that men deliberately choose to torture themselves for eternity by keeping themselves apart from God this raises questions both to God’s omnipotence and his compassion.

And in case the response is that God wants men to choose through free will. Let us remember that God also allows many infants who have not reached the age of reason and, therefore, the ability to choose freely, to die in the millions. It seems he only wants free will for some.

I don’t think you understand what free will is and why humans were gifted with it.

 

[Rickard]

Good question. Think of it as something like cheating on a test. Given the obvious choice between heaven and hell once we have died and can see them, there would indeed be no contest. Just like a test with the answers already filled in being handed to a student isn’t a test, so choosing heaven could potentially not be a choice out of self giving love, and to enter into heaven selfishly is a contradiction. Anybody and everybody could and would get in if we literally had the choice of turning right or left, our choice of gates; the answer would be meaningless because there would be no one who could choose wrong.

The fact is, as the Church says and teaches, all merit ends with death. There are no more chances for us to choose between God and whatever we are tempted with. We by ourselves can gain or lose no more merit after death, but others can offer prayers and intercede for us which is why we pray for those who have died.

If it still seems ridiculous that anyone would willingly, eagerly, or even fiercely choose something other than God, it is. OF COURSE nothing compares to God or what He has ready for those who love Him, but here on earth with our fallen, weakened human nature, we are easily confused, tempted, and prone to doing just that, sinning. The Church’s fancy word for it is concupiscence, our tendency to sin due to original sin.

 

[Rickard]

. It seems he only wants free will for some.

God wills not the death of any sinner, and certainly not eternal death
bible.cc/ezekiel/18-23.htm

if then He does not will death on even those against Him, why would He will death for the innocent? Death is not made by God, it is rather a consequence of our actions and those of our ancestral parents (original sin). We confidently pray and trust in God’s justice and mercy that a soul, not of age to make moral choices, should not go to hell, even though we may not fully understand why they died so young.

 

[vz71]

How can there be final impenitence within the sphere of eternity. In eternity there is no final impenitence. There is always more opportunities to forgive and to love.

It is a characteristic of this life that we have the ability to change our choices from one moment to the next.

But once we pass into the next, our choice of being with God or not becomes fixed for eternity. It makes perfect sense. As long as we are within time, we have time to make the decision. When we pass into eternity, our time to choose is gone. And we must continue on with the choices we have made.

 

[jax_gabriel]

A Worst Sinner have something to say, Love is found so empty that God created human and Human’s Love is directed to their children as we are of His image, Pray for children with ur love and the soul deserves Heaven. Jesus my Lord Mary my Mother Amen

 

[Nimeniton]

It is simple all right. Simply false. This is just wishful thinking on the part of anti-catholic bigotry.
.

I note your opinion that I am indulging in wishful thinking and anti-Catholic bigotry. However, I would be more interested and far more impressed if you could show me the logical flaws of my argument. unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/fallacies.html

With regard to stating that murder is illegal killing this does not contradict the fact that it is also immoral. Stealing is illegal because it is immoral; rape is illegal because it is immoral, fraud is illegal because it is immoral etc… Finally, I never said that you claimed that the church did not say that all killing was not murder. Why did you jump to that conclusion?

 

[Nimeniton]

It would not only be ridiculous but insane. To test how ridiculous imagine putting your hand on a hot stove for five minutes then try imagine willingly doing that for eternity. No one with full knowledge and in their right mind would do it.

 

[Nimeniton]

Good question. Think of it as something like cheating on a test. Given the obvious choice between heaven and hell once we have died and can see them, there would indeed be no contest. Just like a test with the answers already filled in being handed to a student isn’t a test, so choosing heaven could potentially not be a choice out of self giving love, and to enter into heaven selfishly is a contradiction. Anybody and everybody could and would get in if we literally had the choice of turning right or left, our choice of gates; the answer would be meaningless because there would be no one who could choose wrong.
.

Actually you do know the answers before you die. You are not being tested on your knowledge but on your actions. The thief knows it is wrong to steal but he does it anyway. If you did not know the answers you would not know how to act correctly.

Again why would you want anybody to choose the wrong thing? Surely you would want someone to choose the right thing. You might want someone (say your own child) to *avoid *doing the wrong thing but you would not deliberately test him with the wrong thing. You would not put some drugs in his room so he had the chance to commit wrong.

 

[Nimeniton]

It is a characteristic of this life that we have the ability to change our choices from one moment to the next.

But once we pass into the next, our choice of being with God or not becomes fixed for eternity. It makes perfect sense. As long as we are within time, we have time to make the decision. When we pass into eternity, our time to choose is gone. And we must continue on with the choices we have made.

Can God make decisions outside time?

 

[Nimeniton]

God wills not the death of any sinner, and certainly not eternal death
bible.cc/ezekiel/18-23.htm

if then He does not will death on even those against Him, why would He will death for the innocent? Death is not made by God, it is rather a consequence of our actions and those of our ancestral parents (original sin). We confidently pray and trust in God’s justice and mercy that a soul, not of age to make moral choices, should not go to hell, even though we may not fully understand why they died so young.

I agree that there are bible quotes that concur with you but there are bible quotes that do not. If you want to see Bible quotes were God wills death on the innocent read

*.Moses said, “Thus says the Lord, ‘About amidnight I am going out into the midst of Egypt,
5 and all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of the Pharaoh who sits on his throne, even to the firstborn of the slave girl who is behind the millstones; all the firstborn of the cattle as well.
6 ‘Moreover, there shall be a great cry in all the land of Egypt, such as there has not been before and such as shall never be again. * Exodus 11:4–11:6

The reason he killed the innocents was to punish Pharoah.

Also there are bible passages saying that God causes no one to sin but again there are some that says he does.

*16 Pharaoh quickly summoned Moses and Aaron and said, “I have sinned against the LORD your God and against you. 17 Now forgive my sin once more and pray to the LORD your God to take this deadly plague away from me.”

18 Moses then left Pharaoh and prayed to the LORD. 19 And the LORD changed the wind to a very strong west wind, which caught up the locusts and carried them into the Red Sea.** Not a locust was left anywhere in Egypt. 20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go**. Exodus 10:16-20

Several reasons are given in Exodus as to why he decides to make Pharoah sin. I won’t list them here.*

 

[davidv]

I note your opinion that I am indulging in wishful thinking and anti-Catholic bigotry. However, I would be more interested and far more impressed if you could show me the logical flaws of my argument. unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/fallacies.html

I would be glad to oblige, once you present a logical argument instead of a baseless assertion, and I quote Nimeniton

It is quite simple. The Catholic position here is not logically coherent. This is one of the reasons that theologians are employed to attempt to reconcile “apparent” contradictions.

With regard to stating that murder is illegal killing this does not contradict the fact that it is also immoral. Stealing is illegal because it is immoral; rape is illegal because it is immoral, fraud is illegal because it is immoral etc… Finally, I never said that you claimed that the church did not say that all killing was not murder. Why did you jump to that conclusion?

I did not have to jump to a conclusion. I original wrote “do not murder”. You brought up not all “killing” is murder.

 

[vz71]

Can God make decisions outside time?

He decided on creation. By definition that would be outside time.

 

[Nimeniton]

He decided on creation. By definition that would be outside time.

If it is possible for creation to have happened outside time then it is possible for him to allow people to repent outside time, save people outside time and free them from hell outside time and be with him in heaven outside time. So change can happen inside time and outside time?

 

[vz71]

So change can happen inside time and outside time?

I stated our decision becomes fixed. It cannot change once we pass into eternity.
I have said nothing of anything else.

 

[Nimeniton]

I stated our decision becomes fixed. It cannot change once we pass into eternity.
I have said nothing of anything else.

And of course I never said you did. I merely invited you to answer a question in order to introduce a line of argument. But if one looks at various Christian sites explaining what the phrase “outside time means” they describe it as a place where change does not exist. The argument is presented that not only God exists outside time but that when we die we exist outside time. And that as God does not change so neither do we change. So hell is experienced outside time and not within it. It even suggests that God is subject to the laws of “being outside time” and cannot change these laws.

I have never been quite sure what the point of the argument is. It is usually given to correct non Christians’ misconceptions of eternity being within time. Still whether within or outside time those who are in hell suffer and are given no second chances which of course puts a limit on God’s love and ability to forgive.

The concept of “being outside time” is an interesting one. How for example can a changeless God who exists outside time suddenly decide to create the world. For that means he changed from not creating to creating. And if one argues that God did not have a moment where non creation was possible then he co-existed with his creation . But again that is not what the church teaches.It is a very curious concept.

 

[vz71]

Still whether within or outside time those who are in hell suffer and are given no second chances which of course puts a limit on God’s love and ability to forgive.

How exactly is it a limit of God to provide no second chance to someone that does not want it?

 

[Nimeniton]

How exactly is it a limit of God to provide no second chance to someone that does not want it?

Well if you have read my previous pieces, you will note that I consider that a person preferring to suffer for all eternity is either insane or compelled against his better judgment. So I do not accept that someone would not want to escape it. To me that is as absurd as to say that someone would happily stick his hand on a hot stove and not want to remove it.

But even if one believes that a perfectly sane person would choose this option it still suggests that God´s power is limited.

1. It suggests a limit on his communication skills
2. It suggests that he cannot make clear to someone the error of their ways
3. It suggests that his imagination is limited.

But to me it seems that a sane person who really has complete free will must choose the better option. Why torture yourself?

 

[vz71]

Well if you have read my previous pieces, you will note that I consider that a person preferring to suffer for all eternity is either insane or compelled against his better judgment. So I do not accept that someone would not want to escape it. To me that is as absurd as to say that someone would happily stick his hand on a hot stove and not want to remove it.

But to me it seems that a sane person who really has complete free will must choose the better option. Why torture yourself?

We spend our entire lives making the decision of where we want to spend eternity.
Moment by moment, sin by sin, we decide.

We know with every sin, we spurn God and choose hell.
We know that at any given moment we may be called to judgement before the almighty with the sin we carry.

And yet with all of this knowledge, people still choose to spurn God every day.

You are right, it is absurd to say that someone would stick his hand to a hot stove and not remove it.
I do not understand it, but we see people choosing sin over God every day with the full knowledge of the consequences.

 

[Nimeniton]

We spend our entire lives making the decision of where we want to spend eternity.
Moment by moment, sin by sin, we decide.

We know with every sin, we spurn God and choose hell.
We know that at any given moment we may be called to judgement before the almighty with the sin we carry.

And yet with all of this knowledge, people still choose to spurn God every day.

You are right, it is absurd to say that someone would stick his hand to a hot stove and not remove it.
I do not understand it, but we see people choosing sin over God every day with the full knowledge of the consequences.

I guess this is where the Catholic church and I disagree. I do not see people committing evil acts without compulsion as a matter made with full knowledge that hell will be the consequence . The church I understand believes it is possible.

In contrast I would argue that free will is absent in evil actions were hell is believed in. For example, may I suggest an empathetic approach to the issue of pedophilia amongst priests. They themselves were more than likely to have been the victims of similar abuse. That they themselves suffered terribly just as their victims did. But the fact of the matter was that they were acting under compulsion rather than free will. The well documented case of Fr O’Grady shows that he struggled with a compulsion. He was abused by his own brother. One of the Bishops told him “to cease and desist”. topdocumentaryfilms.com/deliver-us-from-evil/ Such a rebuke can only come from a belief in free will. Yet pedophilia is well know to be very difficult to treat, that its causes are predictable as well as the future actions of the pedophile. All of which suggests that their evil actions are not the result of free will but of a strong compulsion.