Humans in hell don't want or can't repent? Why can't?

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If you think Catholic Answer Forums is the Church’s voice and that the accounts from the Church’s Saints are not the Church’s voice, you have some problems that you need to straighten out before you give advice to others. I don’t know what the RCC teaches today on this, but the Orthodox Church I don’t believe has dogmatically spoken about this, so the encounters from the Saints like St. Macarius are definitely what we should say that the Church teaches.
 
Those in Hell are separated from God’s Grace.

All good comes from God, including repentance. It is a natural, logical, and reasonable thing that those in Hell cannot repent.
 
I do not think they are the voice of the Church, but I do think that they represent Church teaching truthfully.

The damned are beyond saving. They are beyond our reach for any positive thing. Today’s reading, the parable of Lazarus and rich man, shows that quite clearly. There is a chasm between the saved and the damned, one that is impassible. The saved cannot give any comfort to the damned at all, not even a single drop of water.
 
The problem with talking this way is that you are implying that when most people die, they are either so Holy that they will enter into Heaven or they were so wicked that they will enter into Hell. I think most people are somewhere in between. These are the people that will not enter into Abraham’s bosom because they were not really Holy as they should have been, but since we do not know God’s mercy, we continue to pray for them. Almost all non-martyrs fit into this category. The prayers for the dead work almost like the prayers for the living. Since God has given so much power and authority to man (allowing the Holy Virgin to give birth to God and allow us to partake of the Body and Blood of Christ), He values our prayers for one another and will not let a prayer be said in vain. The only reason that a Holy person would be asking for the forgiveness of the sins of one destined for hell, is that that person had some good in him. To think that God would not listen to the cry of His son and especially if asked of the Holy Virgin, does not make sense. After the great Judgment, I probably would agree that there will be no more prayers for the damned since all things will be made known. But in the meantime, we should pray.
 
It is a decision of the justice of God, applied by means of His grace, that the souls in Purgatory cannot sin, even though they have free will, and that the souls in Hell cannot repent, even though they have free will. In the case of Purgatory, the gift of the prevenient grace of God keeps them from sin. In the case of Hell, they are not given the grace to repent. Free will cannot repent from grave sin without grace. It would be unjust to give souls a year, a hundred years, a million years, to repent, so that all souls go to Heaven. After death, God does not provide the grace, to the souls in Hell, to repent. In addition, the souls in Hell do have a merciful grace, which is that they can no longer sin (by prevenient grace). They are in a state of blasphemy, as they have utterly rejected God by unrepentant actual mortal sin. But they are spared continuing to be able to sin, so that the punishment due will not increase.
 
pacloc said:
The problem with talking this way is that you are implying that when most people die, they are either so Holy that they will enter into Heaven or they were so wicked that they will enter into Hell.
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Ermm… no… that implication isn’t anywhere in what I’ve written. I honestly have no clue where you got that. I am specifically talking about the damned.

We should pray for the dead, always, no matter how outwardly-evil a person’s life was we should still hold out hope for their last minute repentance.

That being said, a damned soul is damned, period, and our prayers do nothing for them.

You are adding meaning to my posts which is not actually there. I am only talking about the damned.
 
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By saying that people are damned before the great judgment you are doing exactly what I am talking about. Why do I need to add meaning to anything you are saying? How is that you think that prayers for the dead work? If they will eventually be in hell, the prayers benefit them some, and if they will eventually be in Heaven, the prayers helped in the forgiveness of their sins. I don’t see how what I said about the way you are talking adds to your implication that people are damned and prayers do them no benefit.
 
I never said all people are damned before the final judgment… where are you getting that from? Either you’re not reading what I’m writing, or you’re willfully misinterpreting it.

Seriously, I am talking about the souls of the dead who have utterly rejected God. Our prayers do nothing for them. The prayers for the living and those in purgatory can do a lot. Those in Heaven don’t need prayers because they’re already in Heaven.

If this still isn’t making sense to you, could you please explain exactly what it is you think I’m saying?
 
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Do you believe that people will be in hell that have not “utterly rejected God”?
 
pacloc said:
Who is this talking about specifically?
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…I literally cannot state it any clearer.

The souls of those who, at their death, rejected God. The souls of those damned to the eternal fires of Hell, completely cut off from God for all eternity.

Seriously, are you being purposefully obtuse? I’ve reiterated this point about a dozen times over the course of this thread. I am not talking about a single living soul, only the damned dead.
pacloc said:
Do you believe that people will be in hell that have not “utterly rejected God”?
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No! Where the heck did you get that idea from? I haven’t stated anything even remotely close to that.
 
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You seem very emotional about this. I’m trying to say that nobody (obviously maybe a few do, but not every wicked person has time to do this) does what you are saying gets you into hell, “utterly rejecting God”. This is so generic that I’m surprised that you think I should clearly know what this means.

I’m pretty sure that there will be plenty of people in hell that have not “utterly rejected God” if I’m understanding the term correctly. What do you think Christ’s words were about for those that said “Lord, Lord…” and “when did we see you naked, hungry, etc…”
 
pacloc said:
You seem very emotional about this.
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I do not like being misrepresented, especially when the misrepresentation is so absolutely foreign to everything I’ve written… seriously, it’s like you weren’t even reading my posts.
I’m trying to say that nobody (obviously maybe a few do, but not every wicked person has time to do this) does what you are saying gets you into hell, “utterly rejecting God”. This is so generic that I’m surprised that you think I should clearly know what this means.
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Anyone in Hell has rejected God. Period. That rejection is absolute. Even if they didn’t consciously reject God in this life, the rejection at death is of an absolute nature. There is no love for God in Hell.

Once again, you are conflating my discussion about the nature of the afterlife with the nature of our present lives. If you seriously can’t understand this distinction then there’s no point continuing the conversation.
I’m pretty sure that there will be plenty of people in hell that have not “utterly rejected God” if I’m understanding the term correctly. What do you think Christ’s words were about for those that said “Lord, Lord…” and “when did we see you naked, hungry, etc…”
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I’m sorry, but you’re wrong. The only reason people are in Hell is because they have chosen themselves over God. That is an absolute choice. An irrevocable choice. It may be hard to understand because you’re thinking about it in worldly terms, but this choice is a complete one. You can’t just say “I accept God a little bit,” or, “I reject God a little bit”. It’s one or the other, period. (Once again, please understand, i’m talking about after the individual judgment, not here on Earth.)

As for your point about Christ’s words… what of it? If someone doesn’t do those things, that’s a rejection of God. You’re really only proving my point. Sure, itsn’t not an absolute rejection of God, there’s no such thing this side of eternity. However, your choice to either do or not do these things shapes your soul. When you die, and you stand before God, the shape of your soul, the way you’ve fed (or starved) it is going to decide what your absolute decision is. Either way, that decision is 100% for, or 100% against God.

If you disagree with this, well, that’s you’re right; but that doesn’t change the actual reality of Hell.
 
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I have not misrepresented anything of yours. You think that somehow even though you die in a mixed state of accepting and rejecting God, you end up changing this to 100% one way or the other, this makes no sense. Hell is a punishment, no one wants to be there. It is a punishment of which the threat of will drive man to not be indifferent as Adam was. There will be people in Hell who were lovers of God and others, but were lacking in something. And since we all are lacking in something, we rely on the prayers of the Church for forgiveness even after our death. God sees this communion and has Mercy. You are right that the way that you fed or starved your soul is what this life is, but I’m just saying that before the final judgment you can pray for everyone, including those that will go off into Hell, aiding them in some small way. There are different levels of punishment, and the prayers of the saints will lower the level of the punishment.
 
pacloc said:
I have not misrepresented anything of yours. You think that somehow even though you die in a mixed state of accepting and rejecting God, you end up changing this to 100% one way or the other, this makes no sense.
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Please provide evidence for this assertion. The fact that you personally disagree with it doesn’t make you right.

The greatest theologians of history (St. Thomas Aquinas, among others), disagree with your position, so if you’re going to be taking that position, I suggest you provide evidence beyond “it just doesn’t make sense.”
Hell is a punishment, no one wants to be there. cut for length
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Have you read any of the visions of Hell from the saints? All the ones I’ve read, when they discuss the question, agree that the souls in Hell chose to be there. They run headlong into the flames of Hell to escape God’s presence. I recall reading one monk’s writings, after being given a vision of Hell, where he characterized the experience as people literally running and, eventually, rolling themselves down a hill in a fit of panic to escape God’s gaze.

I agree with you that there will be plenty of people in Hell who, in life, believed they loved God. There are probably many who even though they were following what He wanted of them.

I’m not talking about life though. I’m talking about the afterlife. I’m talking about the state of the soul. Hell is, ultimately, eternal and complete separation from God. Given that all that is good comes from God, the means that there can be nothing good in Hell (otherwise God’s presence would be in Hell, and Hell would cease being Hell.). Love of God is a good, it is the greatest good we creations are capable of. Given that love of God is a good, and given that there is no Good in Hell because there is no God in Hell (again, that is the very nature of Hell), then it follows that there can be no love of God in Hell.

As for your assertion that we can pray for the damned before the final judgment, we certainly can, but those prayers are useless. Once again, there is no good in Hell, which means that it is impossible for them to benefit from our prayers, because their benefit would be a good. In point of fact, it is far more likely that if our prayers do anything for a damned soul, they torment it. Our prayers represent our love for them. Love is born from God, and given that they have rejected God and chosen to suffer, any reminders of God, reminders of what they’ve rejected, would cause them intense internal pain.

There are testimonies that exist from people who’ve had contact with damned souls through divine intercession on God’s part. I have one readily available, but it’s not approved private revelation, so the mods ask that we not link to it on the forums. If you’re interested, send me a PM. In this testimony, the damned soul makes it abundantly clear that they hate God and everything He created.

Sorry, but I have to drop out of this conversation for now. God bless!
 
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ProdglArchitect said:
Have you read any of the visions of Hell from the saints? All the ones I’ve read, when they discuss the question, agree that the souls in Hell chose to be there. They run headlong into the flames of Hell to escape God’s presence. I recall reading one monk’s writings, after being given a vision of Hell, where he characterized the experience as people literally running and, eventually, rolling themselves down a hill in a fit of panic to escape God’s gaze.
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I’ve never read anything like this. I have not read about RCC visions of hell, so this might be were we are having different views of the matter. I am an Orthodox Christian, so I do not really trust revelations that have come after the schism in the West. But if you know of something that happened before the schism that could help explain this I would appreciate it. Also could you please show me where St. Thomas Aquinas disagrees with what I wrote. I’ll look for some evidence to show the view that the people in Hell do not completely reject God. I could be wrong though. Are you saying that these people that were lukewarm turn uglier and whatever good they had is turned to wickedness? I guess I don’t understand what it means to develop a 100% against God decision after death but not before.
 
My guess would be that they want very much to repent, but they ontologically no longer poses the capacity to accomplish the task. Their Sins and God’s Justice have stripped them of that capacity. I also imagine that once God’s justice has been pronounced, he is not in the habit of contradicting himself. So, one might deduce that the ontological state of those in purgatory differ from those eternally condemned. Both are disembodied souls, yet they have differing capacities to relate to God and his graces.
 
Thomas Aquinas was cited earlier in this discussion, with full excerpts from the Summa being given.
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Humans in hell don't want or can't repent? Why can't? Traditional Catholicism
St. Thomas Aquinas, SUMMA THEOLOGIAE, Supplement to the Third Part (Supplementum Tertiæ Partis), Question 98. The will and intellect of the damned Article 2. Whether the damned repent of the evil they have done? Objection 1. It would seem that the damned never repent of the evil they have done. For Bernard says on the Canticle [Cf. De Consideratione v, 12; De Gratia et Libero Arbitrio ix] that “the damned ever consent to the evil they have done.” Therefore they never repent of the sins they h…
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Humans in hell don't want or can't repent? Why can't? Traditional Catholicism
Article 5. Whether the damned hate God? Objection 1. It would seem that the damned do not hate God. For, according to Dionysius, “the beautiful and good that is the cause of all goodness and beauty is beloved of all.” But this is God. Therefore God cannot be the object of anyone’s hate. Objection 2. Further, no one can hate goodness itself, as neither can one will badness itself since “evil is altogether involuntary,” as Dionysius asserts. Now God is goodness itself. Therefore no one can hate…
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Humans in hell don't want or can't repent? Why can't? Traditional Catholicism
Article 8. Whether the damned will ever think of God? Objection 1. It would seem that the damned will sometimes think of God. For one cannot hate a thing actually, except one think about it. Now the damned will hate God, as stated in the text of Sentent. iv, in the last Distinction. Therefore they will think of God sometimes. Objection 2. Further, the damned will have remorse of conscience. But the conscience suffers remorse for deeds done against God. Therefore they will sometimes think of G…
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This is all I have time for today, sorry.
 
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So I just have to weigh in here. I was raised Catholic, but now consider myself agnostic. I read all of the responses here. Most of them are in line with what I have always heard Christians say they “know” about hell. I apologize for the quote marks, but we need to keep this real. Nobody knows. People believe, which is different from knowing.

I don’t really believe in hell, and this is why. (What follows is what I believe, not what I claim to know) There are three kinds of people. What most Catholics would call Saints. These are the ones headed straight to heaven when they die. The second class are those who are the majority of us. Not perfect by any means. Trying to do more good than bad in life. May or may not believe in God. If they don’t believe in God, it isn’t because they are hateful. It is for no reason other than they just don’t believe. They may have their own concept of a god who they believe in. In any event, they try to be loving, good people as they navigate through life. Catholics would consider them sinful, no doubt. I believe, that if the Catholic God exists, he would welcome these people with open arms to Heaven. These are souls who are doing their best to make it through life, loving their fellow humans. Now the last group… The ones so many of you here refer to as damned… I don’t believe they are damned at all. Why? Because if you aren’t in one of the two groups I already mentioned it is through no fault of your own. You were dealt a hand in life, for whatever reason, that had you at a disadvantage. Nobody chooses, freely, to hate and to be evil. At least that is what I believe. I have been hearing the Catholic stance on this my whole life, and I still don’t believe people choose to be evil. There may be evil acts. But not evil people. There may be mentally ill people, or people suffering from trauma the likes of which I wouldn’t wish on anyone. Anyhow, that is what I believe. If God exists, he is no doubt a merciful God who understands we aren’t perfect, nor expects us to be, because that is the way he designed us to be.
 
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@QwertyGirl God is indeed merciful! He also respects our free will choice to choose Him, or to choose our own desires. He will not overwhelm us with grace to force us to love or choose Him.

Fr. Mike Schmitz:

11/17/13 Hell is for Real

Homily from the Thirty-third Sunday in Ordinary Time.

“Sometimes people think that sin is just messing up, that sin is slipping up, that sin is an accident. Let’s get away from that. Sin is never an accident. If you do an accident, that is just an accident. If you make a mistake, that is just a mistake. It’s like spilling milk, it was just an accident. God gets that. He understands that. He is not quick to condemn. In fact, Scripture says this, that God is not fast, He is not quick to condemn. He is not looking to catch you in every little thing, every mistake or every accident. Sin is something different. Sin is like this: sin is when we say to God, ‘God, I know what You want, but I don’t care. I want what I want.’ … And with that kind of stuff, we actually get what we want. And what is it when I say, God I know what you want, but I don’t care. I want what I want? And I choose that? What happens when I get that? Ultimately, that is called hell. … God does not send anyone to hell. If any of us end up in hell, it is because we chose it. We said, ‘I don’t want You, I want this other thing.’ As C.S. Lewis said, ‘Hell is a door locked from the inside.’”

This video has a great perspective as well:

 
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