Humans in hell don't want or can't repent? Why can't?

[ProdglArchitect]

I’d like to point out a flaw in your conception of the afterlife. You say you are agnostic, and yet talk about Heaven. If you believe in Heaven, then you cannot be an agnostic, because Heaven is being in the presence of God.

Also, Catholics don’t just consider your second and third categories sinful, we believe the saints are as well. Nobody is perfect (apart from Jesus and Mary), but some people do do a better job of avoiding sin than others.

As for your assertion that its through no fault of your own, well, that’s a baseless assertion that you cannot back up, and which is provably false. Yes, there are some people who have never had a chance to know about God, and there are some people who’ve had the Truth presented to them in such a terrible or hypocritical way that it’s almost impossible for them to believe. That is not the majority of people nowadays. The majority of people today have access to resources they can use to research the various faith claims of the world. Most people are simply too lazy to put int he effort, or don’t care enough (despite the fact that we’re discussion things like afterlife.) Despite the common claims from atheists and agnostics, there is actually a substantial amount of real evidence, both historical and philosophical, which supports the claims of the Church. The problem is that people just assume that since it’s supernatural we can’t have any evidence, or that simply because there are differing viewpoints its impossible to know that one is correct. (This latter assertion is ludicrous. The existence of multiple answers doesn’t mean that there isn’t a right answer that can be known.)

 

[QwertyGirl]

You say you are agnostic, and yet talk about Heaven. If you believe in Heaven, then you cannot be an agnostic, because Heaven is being in the presence of God.

I believe in a lot of different things. Sometimes, it depends on the day. I am open, so you may see me discuss heaven or God. Your definition of heaven may relate it to God. For me, sometimes it might. Other times it may not.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

How do you reconcile the vast differences between disparate belief systems?

 

[QwertyGirl]

Because I am completely comfortable beleiving that nobody knows. All of these concepts are ideas. I love hearing about them. Some are plausible to me. Others aren’t. I am not tied to believing in any of it.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Except for that presupposes that we can’t know. You’re treating these various ideas as if they all have equal evidence and merit, which simply is not the case. Catholicism has substantial historical and philosophical evidence supporting it. No other world religion comes anywhere close to it.

You can’t simply accept what you think sounds good to you, you need to actually examine the evidence.

 

[QwertyGirl]

For me to believe, I have to either see it with my own eyes, hear about it from a reliable source who saw it with their own eyes, or choose to believe because I feel like it. Nothing Christianity or any other religion teaches meet these criteria points for me. Therefore I am left with a big pile of interesting ideas that the human race has basically pulled from imagination. Nothing wrong with that at all, as far as I am concerned. My own concepts are constantly evolving.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

For me to believe, I have to either see it with my own eyes,

As I said, there’s readily available evidence you can examine yourself. Or, do you mean you have to exist at a given moment and witness something first hand to believe it? If so, then you can’t believe anything that occured before you were born, or for which there is no video evidence. (i.e., the vast majority of history).

hear about it from a reliable source who saw it with their own eyes,

That is literally what the gospels are. Well, two of them are. The other two are transcribed from eye-witnesses.

or choose to believe because I feel like it.

I’m sorry, but this is nonsense. Feelings do not dictate reality. Just because you feel like believing something doesn’t make it true. Things are either true or false regardless of your feelings on the subject. The thing you have to do is learn to discern critically and examine claims of truth.

Nothing wrong with that at all, as far as I am concerned. My own concepts are constantly evolving.

I find it telling that people always use phrases like “evolving” or “expanding my horizons” to describing maintaining an irrational adherence to ideals which are self-contradictory…

 

[QwertyGirl]

That is literally what the gospels are. Well, two of them are. The other two are transcribed from eye-witnesses.

So two things. I don’t find the gospels to be reliable. They are based on word of mouth and multiple translations. Secondly, I don’t need to believe anything. I am completely fine saying I don’t have any beliefs with regards to these issues.

I am fine with feelings. They are part of who we are. This is what religious people don’t understand, usually. I don’t feel the slightest need to be able to say I know or believe wholeheartedly anything related to spirituality or God. I go with how I feel. That is how I think it is supposed to be, maybe.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

So two things. I don’t find the gospels to be reliable. They are based on word of mouth and multiple translations.

Except for that they’re not. That’s a common misconception from people who’ve never actually studied them. Two of the Gospels are literally first hand accounts from Apostles. The other two are transcriptions of the teachings of Apostles, written by their disciples, the people who went with them on all of their mission work.

You can’t get any more first-hand than the Gospels.

Secondly, I don’t need to believe anything. I am completely fine saying I don’t have any beliefs with regards to these issues.

Very true, but as a rational human being you should always be seeking to know the truth. Otherwise you are merely stagnating.

I am fine with feelings. They are part of who we are. This is what religious people don’t understand, usually. I don’t feel the slightest need to be able to say I know or believe wholeheartedly anything related to spirituality or God. I go with how I feel. That is how I think it is supposed to be, maybe.

I never claimed that feelings weren’t part of us, only that they don’t dictate reality. Religious people are very in tune with our feelings, we just understand that they aren’t the end-all-be-all of what we believe.

As for going with how you feel, that is the opposite of how it’s supposed to be. Feelings are fleeting, they can change at a moments notice. That’s an unstable foundation for any life.

 

[QwertyGirl]

It sounds like your method of understanding these things works for you as well as mine does for me. We are both Lucky.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

It sounds like your method of understanding these things works for you as well as mine does for me. We are both Lucky.

… You’re just ignoring the problem with your position, given that by basing your “beliefs” on fleeting feelings. You don’t actually understand anything. You just accept things, or you don’t, based purely on how it sounds to you, not on any rational examination of the evidence. But whatever, that’s your choice.

 

[QwertyGirl]

… You’re just ignoring the problem with your position, given that by basing your “beliefs” on fleeting feelings. You don’t actually understand anything. You just accept things, or you don’t, based purely on how it sounds to you, not on any rational examination of the evidence. But whatever, that’s your choice.

I am not ignoring anything. I am a free thinker. I don’t subscribe to any one religion or any one belief system. If there is a god, I like to think that god maybe created things the way they are for a purpose. Maybe what happens to us when we die is inconsequential to what is going on in our lives today, and vice versa. I don’t need to defend my understanding to you or anybody, but I am willing to explain if asked. If you don’t like what I stand for, or can’t understand what I am about, then ask if you want clarification or move along. I don’t ignore problems (your words). I don’t have a problem when it comes to my spirituality. Apparently you do, though. I am really sorry you feel that way.

 

[MCH1]

“But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” (Revelations 21:8)

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)

“In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.” (Jude 1:7)

“In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.” (Matthew 25:41)

“Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment” (2 Peter 2:3-4)

To deny hell is to call these men liars.

sonofbary,
This post sums it up nicly

 

[DarkLight]

@adrian1

If you can, find and read C.S. Lewis’s Great Divorce. It shows a picture of the damned being offered an excursion into heaven, and what happens. It’s a good picture of what people have been saying here.

 

[mythbuster1]

What did the Lord say? “To the one who has, more will be given, and to the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.”

 

[Aulef]

If hell is not eternal, then there is no justice. And God, as we all know, is infinite Justice

 

[Vico]

I posted this again and again,…

We know that the devils --don’t want-- to repent, he is too produs even to think to his repentance or to come to God with humility.

But what make the humans to --can’t repent-- after death, we know that they want to stop the suffering, (the health from the Gospel) want to seek God (five Virgins parable), --want to repent–we can say that a part of their free will want get away from hell, but what make this impossible?

The angels have such knowledge that their decision is final, but humans have until the death of their body to make their final decision to love God. Those that choose not love God cannot be forced to love God.

Catechism

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him …
1035 " … The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs."

 

[sonofbarry]

This choice is made, definitively, in the presence of God at our judgment. That means that they saw God, they saw His majesty and beauty, His goodness and Truth, and they still chose to reject Him.

This is in direct opposition to Church teachings. There is no ‘last chance’ to repent when you see God. When you’re dead, you’re judged immediately and you go one way or the other (or the middle, if you’re not so bad). It’s not a drawn-out trial in the supreme court.
At that point, God doesn’t care anymore. Well, He probably does care, but you still go to Hell.
That is Church teaching: you go to Hell forever, even though God still loves you.

 

[sonofbarry]

Serious question: How do we know that God is ‘infinite justice’? Is that from scripture?

 

[runningdude]

If they want to repent, they would be in purgatory, not hell.

To use the bride example, those who were late would humbly wait outside the banquet (realizing they insulted the groom with there tardiness), rather than demand entry regardless.