Humans, selfish in every way?

[Laurence_of_PA]

As humans, don’t we all simply pursue our own self interests? Even actions helpful to other people make us feel better inside, so how is selflessness possible?

And just to answer the first dozen smart remarks : Yes, what I just did here had a selfish side to it.

 

[manualman]

There are those who survived wars because a buddy lept on a grenade that otherwise would have taken out everybody in the foxhole.

You think FEELING good about it explains the saints who volunteered to tend to lepers and plague victims?

Much less interesting example: you think I FEEL good about getting up at 3:00 am to rock my screaming infant daugher?

You cannot relate to ANY of these examples a truly selfless love? How sad for you.

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

There are those who survived wars because a buddy lept on a grenade that otherwise would have taken out everybody in the foxhole.

You think FEELING good about it explains the saints who volunteered to tend to lepers and plague victims?

Much less interesting example: you think I FEEL good about getting up at 3:00 am to rock my screaming infant daugher?

You cannot relate to ANY of these examples a truly selfless love? How sad for you.

I apologize now if I came across as being too light-hearted in my Original Post for the gravity of the topic at hand , but my conviction in my original premise remains. Of course, for fear that this all will trigger an emotion-fueled debate rather than an objective discussion, I won’t *directly *answer the examples you laid out, but I will do my best anyway.

First off, my statements here are not the result of questioning other people’s behavior so much as it results from questioning my own (though in the course of this I will probably cite millions of external examples). In the course of my lifetime, I have done thousands of “good things” for others, just as you would expect from any other person.

As a brother, I have tried to be a good role model and teacher to my little brother, and as a camp counselor during the summer, I have tried my dearest to make others learn and grow in a positive manner. On a backpacking trip with teenagers from across the country once, I was often the one who provided servant leadership, calmly scrubbing dishes and taking the loads off other people’s packs while adding them to my own. In one case on that trip, I even once tried to answer a sincere question I was asked about heaven and hell (this was back when I was still a theist, but just thinking about the person who said it makes me cry to this day). It’s no war story, but none of these things were very “fun.”

I’m not saying all this to brag, though. Rather, I’m saying it to denounce myself. Cause every time I do something like this, I know I’m doing the right thing. In essence, even the greatest “sacrifices” were still for my benefit in some way or another – emotionally, psychologically, mentally, or even spiritually. It’s comforting to think I’ve done good, but realistic to know that I was somehow serving myself.

I’m sorry about the men in the foxholes, though. It’s sort of depressing to think about, so in the interest of objectivity, I’d like to avoid the word “foxhole”. My grandpa was there , and I am still averse to the fact that my materialistic thinking should have to encompass my own grandpa as well…but it does.

 

[jimmy]

There are those who survived wars because a buddy lept on a grenade that otherwise would have taken out everybody in the foxhole.

You think FEELING good about it explains the saints who volunteered to tend to lepers and plague victims?

Much less interesting example: you think I FEEL good about getting up at 3:00 am to rock my screaming infant daugher?

You cannot relate to ANY of these examples a truly selfless love? How sad for you.

You need to quit the judgemental attitude. Everyone is oriented toward other people. All their actions are determined by how they make the person feel or how it makes other people think of them. Even the man jumping on the grenade could be doing it out of some selfish reason. For example he might be looking for glory. Maybe he is looking for a reward in heaven.

But it is possible with God for us to become completely selfless. It takes a lot of prayer and obedience.

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

I’m starting to think maybe I approached this question wrong. Oh well, maybe another day. :coffeeread:

Now, if you want me, I’ll be…

consoling someone :console: who hurt their forehead uch: after slamming it against a brick wall :banghead: because I stopped playing the harp :harp: which they had been dancing to :dancing: to help digest the pizza which they ate to get the taste out of their mouth after kissing this guy :kissme:

 

[Kitty_Chan]

In essence, even the greatest “sacrifices” were still for my benefit in some way or another – emotionally, psychologically, mentally, or even spiritually. It’s comforting to think I’ve done good, but realistic to know that I was somehow serving myself.
(

So because you did something good or right, and some of it, was out of duty too, as you said.

Then you felt good about that, and worried you were being self serving.

I dont recall you saying you gloated and rubbed it in everyones face. You only felt accomplished. Is this correct so far??

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

As humans, don’t we all simply pursue our own self interests? Even actions helpful to other people make us feel better inside, so how is selflessness possible?

And just to answer the first dozen smart remarks : Yes, what I just did here had a selfish side to it.

Selflessness is only observable from afar.

A true martyr “looks” selfless because the observer has a misinformed idea of the martyr’s “self”.

A martyr’s “self” is given to God, where it really belongs, and that is the ULTIMATE selfishness, the “pearl of great price”, which we can purchase. When THAT selfishness is purchased, the world sees only selflessness.

Or, it sees that real selflessness as a perverse selfishness which seeks “victimhood” so as to “shame it”.

The test of the real martyr is the martyr’s ability to insult the shameless by wanting the shameful to be unashamedly ashamed.

It’s a shame, really.

 

[manualman]

Jimmy, your post indicates there might be a speck in your own eye as well…

To the OP, I didn’t notice you were 16. Fear not, life has a way of changing your perspective. Do good. Force it if you have to. You’ll surprise yourself over time. You’ll discover genuinely selfless love inside you. Then you’ll wonder how that could be!

 

[jimmy]

Jimmy, your post indicates there might be a speck in your own eye as well…

To the OP, I didn’t notice you were 16. Fear not, life has a way of changing your perspective. Do good. Force it if you have to. You’ll surprise yourself over time. You’ll discover genuinely selfless love inside you. Then you’ll wonder how that could be!

I don’t claim to be pure.

You cannot relate to ANY of these examples a truly selfless love? How sad for you.

That statement seems rather condescending to me.

 

[inJESUS]

Actually the OP asked a very interesting question about human nature.Selfishness has degrees .Let me play the devil’s advocate here; the martyrs who died for Christ, do you think they would have died if they had no hope in the after?if they expected nothing? do you think there is not 0.5% of selfishness? or at least expecting something in return?

 

[jimmy]

Actually the OP asked a very interesting question about human nature.Selfishness has degrees .Let me play the devil’s advocate here; the martyrs who died for Christ, do you think they would have died if they had no hope in the after?if they expected nothing? do you think there is not 0.5% of selfishness? or at least expecting something in return?

Yes, it is a very interesting question. The thing though is that the intent of Christian mysticism is to remove this selfishness within a person. The Christian monk is to become completely detached from his own self and become focused on the other, which is God. It think it is completely possible for the Christian monastic or martyr to be acting purely out of love for God or neighbor. The regular Christian will not reach this level in this life though.

 

[inJESUS]

Thank you Jimmy…yes i understand your point…i’ve seen monks and the way they live…and i’m sure about their love to God as it radiates from each cell they have! and am sure it is an answer back to the love God Himself showed and shows…my point is rather about whether there is no 0.5% of selfishness, or, if the word is heavy, at least of expecting something in return…because here we are talking about a loving God so you love Him in return…actually you can’t but love Him in return…i ersonally are obessed by tis passion!.but what if the God we are talking about were different? (in a negative way of course), would the monks, or us, exhibit the same attitude?what do you think?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

As humans, don’t we all simply pursue our own self interests? Even actions helpful to other people make us feel better inside, so how is selflessness possible?

And just to answer the first dozen smart remarks : Yes, what I just did here had a selfish side to it.

ISTM that everything we do, without exception, is to some extent infected/coloured/tainted/spoiled by selfishness.​

So in that sense, yes, I believe that all humans - without exception - are “selfish in every way”, in everything we do: even in our best thoughts, acts, words; & in our omissions of evil. Even “hardly at all” is still “to some extent”.

 

[jimmy]

Thank you Jimmy…yes i understand your point…i’ve seen monks and the way they live…and i’m sure about their love to God as it radiates from each cell they have! and am sure it is an answer back to the love God Himself showed and shows…my point is rather about whether there is no 0.5% of selfishness, or, if the word is heavy, at least of expecting something in return…because here we are talking about a loving God so you love Him in return…actually you can’t but love Him in return…i ersonally are obessed by tis passion!.but what if the God we are talking about were different? (in a negative way of course), would the monks, or us, exhibit the same attitude?what do you think?

I think in this life it will only be selfish because we can not gain absolute communion with God.

I think that if God was different, i.e. not a loving God, it would mean that our relationship would be completely different to Him and it wouldn’t necessarily be as much focused on this detachment. This detachment is a part of love. So if God is not love then detachment kind of loses its meaning.

As far as I can tell we will get beyond this subconscious self centeredness. We will be able to look beyond what is in it for us and focus on God.

I didn’t know you were a Maronite.

 

[Filius99993]

As humans, don’t we all simply pursue our own self interests? Even actions helpful to other people make us feel better inside, so how is selflessness possible?

And just to answer the first dozen smart remarks : Yes, what I just did here had a selfish side to it.

People are selfish, but those who are always have to keep other people’s thoughts in consideration. Which is of course, the problem with the idea of relativism.

As a teenager, (I am one to) it is difficult to understand the idea of altruism. (Yes, it DOES exist.) I think people do good things because they are believed to be “right”. There some people I know who think I’m a “nice kid” (maybe I am) because I help out… but I get little joy from it (usually). People do stuff because they believe it to be right… it is better to worry about other people’s feelings in the long run, lest you become caught up in conceit. Which has happened to every single self-centered person I have ever met. So, altruism can be self-interest, but not the way you thought…

 

[manualman]

ISTM that everything we do, without exception, is to some extent infected/coloured/tainted/spoiled by selfishness.​

So in that sense, yes, I believe that all humans - without exception - are “selfish in every way”, in everything we do: even in our best thoughts, acts, words; & in our omissions of evil. Even “hardly at all” is still “to some extent”.

Wow, isn’t that kinda… protestant? I’ve always keenly appreciated the Catholic distinction about us being “good, but fallen” over the “total depravity of man” model prevalent in my evangelical friends. I tend to think that our falleness doesn’t necessarily pervade EVERY thought and action we take like you express here, but merely SOME of them.

jimmy, my reaction wasn’t condescending, it was disbelief. I really doubt the OP has NEVER done anything inherently selfless, he just is being scrupulous. And that was my point.