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jhalpin100
Guest
I can only hope that that answer (whatever it means) will turn out to be as compelling for you as it is for me.
For my part, I think this has degenerated enough. Thanks all,
Joe
- Status
For my part, I think this has degenerated enough. Thanks all,
Joe
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tonyrey
Guest
Your statement that he is an idiot is hardly a term of admiration. It implies that your intelligence and understanding of reality is incomparably more profound than his.
The truth is that you’re not interested in any other view but your own.
Again you fail to recognize the distinction between “know” and “believe”. Of course I don’t live my life wondering if I exist but unlike you I’m aware we’re not infallible. You’re so deeply intrenched in your habits of thought you can’t even admit you may be wrong. You’ve failed to give one jot of evidence to support your assumption that physical objects exist. To hold up your hand in front of your face doesn’t make the slightest difference to the nature of reality. I bet you’re not so certain your mind exists.
The comparison with belief in abduction by aliens is totally irrelevant. It’s not a common belief. You are arguing in effect that what is commonly believed must be true - that we don’t need any reason to believe what most people take for granted.
You must have miraculous insight into reality if you have such infallible knowledge. You believe (or do you know?) you don’t need to make any assumptions! The simple fact remains that you have evaded one very simple question: What evidence do you have that things exist?
(Like you I believe things exist. Unlike you I know we can’t prove it.)
Once again you are evading the issue. Let’s put it another way. What do you think all your knowledge is based on?
Your pity is misdirected. It should be for those who think they know it all… All your “knowledge” is based on one colossal assumption - that you know beyond all shadow of doubt that things exist. You don’t even think it’s necessary to explain how you know. You certainly need to “do justice, love mercy and walk humbly before your God”.
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joecap
Guest
As a general rule, I hate posting or even reading threads that have more than 3 or 4 pages because generally I have no inclination to read all of them, so if I post something it may be irrelevant or already touched on.
But my belief is that the soul is to the human body is as a computer program is to a computer. All of our thoughts, emotions and memories are ‘stored’ on our soul. the wonderful brain that we have enables the human part of us to experience these intangible things on our limited physical level, but has no part in the ‘imprint’.
Our soul…our spirit…our intellect controls the body.
The body is a physical entity that lives on its own as long as it is able to. If it becomes incapable of surviving because of injury or disease, the soul then leaves it.
So if your soul was somehow transferred to another body (an impossible thing, since your soul is owned by your body, and vice-versa) that other body would now become you, with your personality, thoughts and memories. There would be nothing left in it related to whoever’s soul was in it before.
Think of installing a specific program onto a computer. The pc-hard drive, processor, etc-is the new ‘body’ just waiting for the program-the soul-to be installed.
But my belief is that the soul is to the human body is as a computer program is to a computer. All of our thoughts, emotions and memories are ‘stored’ on our soul. the wonderful brain that we have enables the human part of us to experience these intangible things on our limited physical level, but has no part in the ‘imprint’.
Our soul…our spirit…our intellect controls the body.
The body is a physical entity that lives on its own as long as it is able to. If it becomes incapable of surviving because of injury or disease, the soul then leaves it.
So if your soul was somehow transferred to another body (an impossible thing, since your soul is owned by your body, and vice-versa) that other body would now become you, with your personality, thoughts and memories. There would be nothing left in it related to whoever’s soul was in it before.
Think of installing a specific program onto a computer. The pc-hard drive, processor, etc-is the new ‘body’ just waiting for the program-the soul-to be installed.
J
jhalpin100
Guest
Disagreeing with someone is a claim of incomparably better understanding? Think about that before saying it again. If I’m wrong then show me why, don’t do the very thing you accuse me of by making personal attacks.
The ability to reason is where the word “stupid” comes from. The meaning of words depends on the context in which they’re used. It has nothing to do with my personality or that of Descartes. Descartes was a human being and he was just as capable of saying something stupid as I am. As it happens he did (as have I). The difference between my stupid statements and his is that he’s famous and I’m not. His “ergo” led many people down a rabbit trail to nowhere.
The reason he’s stupid because of that is that he should have known better, precisely because he was more aware of what he was saying.
If you think what he said was sensible, then please defend it rather than attacking me personally. You’re doing the very thing you accuse me of.
I do not think I know it all. The point of this thread is that I do not know it all. I was asking a question, and looking for a reasonable answer. I got opinions stated as absolute truth, and insults, apparently because I don’t fit whatever mold is required here.
Joe
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jhalpin100
Guest
I’m a little confused here. Let me restate what you say:
- the soul is to the human body is as a computer program is to a computer
- The body is a physical entity that lives on its own as long as it is able to. If it becomes incapable of surviving because of injury or disease, the soul then leaves it
- (Yet So if your soul was somehow transferred to another body (an impossible thing, since your soul is owned by your body, and vice-versa)
Joe
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edwest2
Guest
The soul is immaterial. It can’t be downloaded. Perhaps memories can be, but the whole dynamic of being human would disappear. The “you” in the machine would be a collection of memories. If it could interact with others, it would only be like you but not actually you.
Peace,
Ed
Peace,
Ed
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jhalpin100
Guest
It seems to me that you keep making statements of this kind as though there was no possibility of questioning them. It seems to me that you should have more to say than what you do.
For example, how do you know that what you say above is true? How would you know, for example, that “it would only be the machine but not actually you”? Or that “The soul is immaterial. It can’t be downloaded”.
Joe
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tonyrey
Guest
You’re watering down what you wrote. It was “idiot” not “stupid”. Anyway let’s forget the diatribes and stick to the facts.
The issue at stake is whether holding up your hand proves that the physical world exists. I argue that it doesn’t because you infer that your hand exists. You interpret the data you receive from your senses. Your starting point is “you”, i.e. the perceiver, not what you perceive. (And of course it is the same for everyone else.) We know we are thinking but we believe things exist.
No hard feelings
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tonyrey
Guest
I forgot to add that if you don’t fit the mould(?) I certainly don’t!
I may be wrong but this forum seems a free-for-all.
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ricmat
Guest
Since Ed isn’t around, I’ll take a shot at this.
- The soul is immaterial. That’s a teaching of the Church. It exists even without matter, even without this material universe. By “downloading”, you are referring to a process which relies on material aspects. Software is stored in the form of electrons embedded in matter. Downloading it involves moving electrons about and copying the pattern somewhere else.
- The church teaches that “you” are composed of both body and soul. Since you can’t actually download a soul, since it is immaterial, even if something appears to be you, it actually can’t be you.
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Deacon_Joseph
Guest
A Human Being has five transcendental desires for perfect, unconditional and unrestricted Being, Truth, Love, Goodness and Beauty.
Being is the feeling of being at home with the totality of everything.
‘Human beings seek unconditional Truth: the perfect set of correct answers to the complete set of possible questions.’
– Saint Thomas Aquinas
‘For thou hast made us for Thyself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee.’
– Saint Augustine
This quote from Saint Augustine means: God implanted awareness of Himself, because we cannot be satisfied without Him. God is the only one who can complete us.
Human beings have the desire for unrestricted Love. The awareness of perfect love, empathy, and truth leads us to be dissatisfied with others.
Human Beings seek perfect and unconditional goodness and justice. The desire to do good and avoid evil is manifested in our consciousness.
We seek the unity of all forms. We seek absolute simplicity of being, because we have a soul. The five transcendental desires of the human being point directly to the existence of the soul. We have a soul that can be satisfied by God alone. Finite manifestations( objects and beings of the material world) of beauty, truth, love, being, and goodness will not satisfied us.
Are bodies will be reunited with our souls at the final judgment. In the meantime, after our death, our soul is judged as to where it will go. The final judgment does not change our personal judgment after our own death, only unites us with our body we had on Earth.
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jhalpin100
Guest
I’m hesitant to post this, and it will probably be my last here.
If (as I’ve been told here) we will be united with our “own” body, which body will that be? I’ve mentioned the obvious fact that a large number bodies no longer exist. They’ve rotted and been transformed into food eaten by other people, fish, etc. They’ve been burned to ashes, whatever. So what body will Abraham have, since the molecules that were his body have since then no doubt become molecules in other bodies?
St Paul would seem to disagree with the whole idea that we will have our “own” bodies, because he says “It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body…” (Co 15:44). He doesn’t define the difference, but he make a difference. So I’m left less than sanguine about the finality of the opinions I’ve been given about that.
So now I’m wondering about the “immateriality” of the soul. The Bible doesn’t say that (actually what it says is much different in many places). I’m not clear on how this works sometimes, so I don’t know how the church has determined the immateriality of the soul. Whatever that mechanism is, I don’t know what the relationship between the soul and memories are. Perhaps someone here does, but if so they haven’t explained it to this point.
Suppose we have an immaterial soul, and it will be joined with our material bodies. Anyone have a clue what that means? Not me.
Fine, let’s just say the soul is immaterial. How does that prevent memories from being downloaded into a new body? We’re not going to have the same body (according to St Paul), the immaterial soul is something we know nothing about, but our memories are what we really think we are.
If I’m resurrected without my memories, why would anyone say it’s me?
Joe
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