Humanzees/chumans

[N0X3x]

fair warning: this thread concerns some pretty weird stuff.

I’ve recently heard that geneticists have hybridized animals that are genetically more distantly related than humans and chimps. This means that it may be possible to create human/chimp hybrids. understandably, this isn’t an area of research that very many people are pursuing.

assuming that such hybridization is possible, I think most would agree that actually forming such hybrids would be immoral (though if you do not, I’d love to hear why), but let’s suppose some mad scientist actually went through with it. What moral status would this organism have? Would it be a human, with an immortal spirit, or an animal, without one?

If it is possible for humans and chimpanzees to have offspring, would that very fact mean that even 100% chimps would have human moral status?

 

[GEddie]

fair warning: this thread concerns some pretty weird stuff.

I’ve recently heard that geneticists have hybridized animals that are genetically more distantly related than humans and chimps. This means that it may be possible to create human/chimp hybrids. understandably, this isn’t an area of research that very many people are pursuing.

assuming that such hybridization is possible, I think most would agree that actually forming such hybrids would be immoral (though if you do not, I’d love to hear why), but let’s suppose some mad scientist actually went through with it. What moral status would this organism have? Would it be a human, with an immortal spirit, or an animal, without one?

If it is possible for humans and chimpanzees to have offspring, would that very fact mean that even 100% chimps would have human moral status?

Humans and chimpanzees cannot breed naturally, so chimpanzees are morally considered to be animals.

If the inter species chimera were formed scientifically, I’d guess that its moral status would depend upon its brain, since that is where the human soul (psyche) most differs in behavior from the animal soul (anima).

If the body (soma) were chimpanzic below the neck, but had a human head and mind, I’d say this was a human being.

If however the soma were human in appareance below the neck but expressed only an ape level of consciousness … Whoooh!!!

Hopefully this won’t be done for a long time if at all!

ICXC NIKA

 

[Jim_Baur]

I thought you were going in a different directions.

I loved the word play!

There is a little village in Bolivia; it is Chuma, Bolivia. It is a little peace of Heaven. I loved to live there.

Sorry about going off the subject.

 

[DaveBj]

If I came to self-awareness and discovered that I was a human being in a chimp’s body, I would go seriously hunting for whoever had “bred” me.

 

[GEddie]

If I came to self-awareness and discovered that I was a human being in a chimp’s body, I would go seriously hunting for whoever had “bred” me.

As chimps have hands as good as ours, and several times our muscular strength; such a being would not have much to kvetch about (if it’s mind were fully human).

ICXC NIKA

 

[empther]

It’s an article of faith that human intelligence is not of the brain alone, but also of the human soul.

If some kind of creature was made from chimps and humans, I doubt very much that God would give it a human soul. It would have no more intellect than a chimp, and probably not even that.

 

[Rolltide]

It’s an article of faith that human intelligence is not of the brain alone, but also of the human soul.

If some kind of creature was made from chimps and humans, I doubt very much that God would give it a human soul. It would have no more intellect than a chimp, and probably not even that.

Intellect wise, a chimpanzee is about on par with a human three year old. Now that said, have you talked to a three year old lately? They are capable of a fairly high level of expression. Chimpanzees don’t have voice boxes like ours, so they can only use sign language. But, imagine you could train one to speak like us in a human voice at a three year old’s level. Now tell me what it’s status is?

 

[Ion]

A transplant is like a device, attached to your body, and is not even expected to help you more than to keep you alive. A genetic modification, maybe to correct some genetic diseases, otherwise they are unacceptable. I think this will be a challenge, maybe not in the very near future.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I’ve recently heard that geneticists have hybridized animals that are genetically more distantly related than humans and chimps.

Hybrids via horizontal gene transfer has occurred in labs between a number of different life forms producing life forms such as glowing mice or insulin-producing E-coli bacteria (which contains a gene from humans). Yes, these life forms do have other species in their lineage from the gene transfer. But that doesn’t give them the ability to mate with those other life forms. .

This means that it may be possible to create human/chimp hybrids. understandably, this isn’t an area of research that very many people are pursuing.

There was a scientist that applied for a patent for a human-animal hybrid. His goal was not to make such a hybrid, but to get a precedent in place to prevent such a thing from happening. In 2005 his patent was denied and it set a precedent against hybrids that are “too-human”.

 

[N0X3x]

Thanks for the responses.

It seems to me that in this and other areas where the personhood of someone or something is questionable, the best policy, and the one most likely to be adopted by the church, is the one the church already has with regard to fetuses:

Consider it to be a person in case it is.

 

[empther]

Quote:
Originally Posted by empther View Post
It’s an article of faith that human intelligence is not of the brain alone, but also of the human soul.

If some kind of creature was made from chimps and humans, I doubt very much that God would give it a human soul. It would have no more intellect than a chimp, and probably not even that.

Intellect wise, a chimpanzee is about on par with a human three year old. Now that said, have you talked to a three year old lately? They are capable of a fairly high level of expression. Chimpanzees don’t have voice boxes like ours, so they can only use sign language. But, imagine you could train one to speak like us in a human voice at a three year old’s level. Now tell me what it’s status is?

A fifty year old chimp can nowhere near match the intellect of a one year old human.

Chimps and gorillas have been trained to pick out a hundred or more symbols on a board. They will point to the right symbol when a human speaks the word,
or conversely it will point to a symbol when it wants something. Also, the ape will sometimes pick two or three words that when combined mean something greater than the sum of the parts.

Is this “language”?

Scientists have tried hard to detect “language” in apes but have not found it. Apes mimic and develop conditioned reflex responses, but they do not exhibit language.

An ape is just a dumb animal.

 

[Rolltide]

A fifty year old chimp can nowhere near match the intellect of a one year old human.

Yes, they can quite easily, in fact. In one or two areas, they actually outperform them.

Chimps and gorillas have been trained to pick out a hundred or more symbols on a board. They will point to the right symbol when a human speaks the word,
or conversely it will point to a symbol when it wants something. Also, the ape will sometimes pick two or three words that when combined mean something greater than the sum of the parts.

Is this “language”?

Rudimentary language? Yes, absolutely it is. If you can successfully communicate an idea, I’d consider that language. Is a toddler that uses simple two and three word expressions capable of communicating quite easily its wants and needs to its parents? Yes. Is a toddler a dumb animal? Not in the slightest.

Scientists have tried hard to detect “language” in apes but have not found it. Apes mimic and develop conditioned reflex responses, but they do not exhibit language.

An ape is just a dumb animal.

I would strongly disagree with this statement. Although I’m a professional historian by trade, in college, I actually had the opportunity to “speak” with a chimpanzee that used sign language as a part of my human psychology course. In fact, part of doing so was to disprove exactly your attitude, which, to a certain extent, I had at the time. I can most assuredly say that I was able to have a discussion, albeit very basic, with the animal, and the experiment directly changed my thoughts on the subject. The chimpanzee basically communicated to me (in two or three word phrases) that he was scared (too many people) and wanted to go back to the lab and have breakfast. That’s VERY high order thinking, compared to most animals.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

fair warning: this thread concerns some pretty weird stuff.

I’ve recently heard that geneticists have hybridized animals that are genetically more distantly related than humans and chimps. This means that it may be possible to create human/chimp hybrids. understandably, this isn’t an area of research that very many people are pursuing.

assuming that such hybridization is possible, I think most would agree that actually forming such hybrids would be immoral (though if you do not, I’d love to hear why), but let’s suppose some mad scientist actually went through with it. What moral status would this organism have? Would it be a human, with an immortal spirit, or an animal, without one?

If it is possible for humans and chimpanzees to have offspring, would that very fact mean that even 100% chimps would have human moral status?

Aquinas would say the immortality of the soul is known from our ability for abstract thought. Any animal that is capable of abstract thought would then be classed human.

Such progeny would also be “born” in original sin as OS is passed on by biological reproduction.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

The chimp / human interbreeding thing is an old one. There have been stories around about this type of thing for decades, if not centuries. Voltaire even wrote about humans and apes dancing together, getting married and having offspring, which is quite unsettling until you read the background literature and learn he was actually pulling Rousseaus’s leg and scorning the latter’s theory of the noble savage.

In the 1930s there was a supposed half ape half man creature living in Morrocco who could not talk but only grunted and moved around on all fours, yet was born to a human mother. Evidence about this is scant as the photos are all blurry, reports are a bit sensationalist, and relatives have refused requests to exhume the grave. But many scientists today believe he was not actually half ape but had some genetic defect that caused ape-like features.

https://murderbymedia.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/bassou.jpg?w=460

 

[Ion]

I was wondering how did the snake look like before the fall. Maybe it had a monkey like body. It was the most intelligent animal…Maybe it lost his intelligence as well. Is the animal intelligence a kind of robotlike intelligence?

 

[Thorns]

Thanks for the responses.

It seems to me that in this and other areas where the personhood of someone or something is questionable, the best policy, and the one most likely to be adopted by the church, is the one the church already has with regard to fetuses:

Consider it to be a person in case it is.

I dont think the Church teaches “in case it is.” The Church is definitely saying it is.

Personhood is not the criteria the Church goes by. Life itself and the soul are the criteria used. An unconscious person does not exhibit much “personhood” or personality, yet they are still a living person.

 

[tonyrey]

Thanks for the responses.

It seems to me that in this and other areas where the personhood of someone or something is questionable, the best policy, and the one most likely to be adopted by the church, is the one the church already has with regard to fetuses:

Consider it to be a person in case it is.

God doesn’t expect us to be infallible but incorruptible.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

fair warning: this thread concerns some pretty weird stuff.

I’ve recently heard that geneticists have hybridized animals that are genetically more distantly related than humans and chimps. This means that it may be possible to create human/chimp hybrids. understandably, this isn’t an area of research that very many people are pursuing.

assuming that such hybridization is possible, I think most would agree that actually forming such hybrids would be immoral (though if you do not, I’d love to hear why), but let’s suppose some mad scientist actually went through with it. What moral status would this organism have? Would it be a human, with an immortal spirit, or an animal, without one?

If it is possible for humans and chimpanzees to have offspring, would that very fact mean that even 100% chimps would have human moral status?

Everyone knows that Mules don’t reproduce. In like manner, species hybrids of any type, would not reproduce. So it is a question we won’t have to answer. The whole idea springs from a sick mind. It is not worthy of discussion.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Yes, they can quite easily, in fact. In one or two areas, they actually outperform them.

Rudimentary language? Yes, absolutely it is. If you can successfully communicate an idea, I’d consider that language. Is a toddler that uses simple two and three word expressions capable of communicating quite easily its wants and needs to its parents? Yes. Is a toddler a dumb animal? Not in the slightest.

I would strongly disagree with this statement. Although I’m a professional historian by trade, in college, I actually had the opportunity to “speak” with a chimpanzee that used sign language as a part of my human psychology course. In fact, part of doing so was to disprove exactly your attitude, which, to a certain extent, I had at the time. I can most assuredly say that I was able to have a discussion, albeit very basic, with the animal, and the experiment directly changed my thoughts on the subject. The chimpanzee basically communicated to me (in two or three word phrases) that he was scared (too many people) and wanted to go back to the lab and have breakfast. That’s VERY high order thinking, compared to most animals.

More bull. I think people are going mad. This whole discussion is madness.

Linus2nd

 

[N0X3x]

I dont think the Church teaches “in case it is.” The Church is definitely saying it is.

From what I understand, there isn’t actually an official church doctrine on the matter.

Personhood is not the criteria the Church goes by. Life itself and the soul are the criteria used. An unconscious person does not exhibit much “personhood” or personality, yet they are still a living person.

If they are persons, they have moral personhood, right?