Humble Questions to Catholics

[Cody1611]

Humble Questions…

Why do you pray through saints when the Bible says there is ONE mediator? Also, where in the Bible does it tell us to pray through saints?
**
1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” KJV**

Another question…

Where in the Bible does it say that Mary was the mother of God? I know that she is the mother of Jesus Christ, God manifest, but God is eternal and was before Mary. To me the Bible teaches that Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, but not God the Father, Creator of the Universe.

Also, I understand that the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was a Virgin, even after Jesus Christ was born.

Mary was a virgin at Christ’s birth, but notice in the below verse it says “her firstborn son”.
**
Matthew 1:25 “And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.” KJV**

Mary had other children.

Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?” KJV

Also, look at Matthew 12:46, Mark 3:31; 6:3, Luke 8:19, John 2:12.

These were not His spiritual brothers because they did not believe in Him until the resurrection.
**
John 7:5 “For neither did his brethren believe in him.” KJV**

The Bible makes clear between Jesus’ physical and spiritual brothers.

John 2:12 “After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.” KJV
**
Other questions…**

Is there scriptural proof for Purgatory?

Thank you for your attention and God bless

 

[adstrinity]

First question I must inquire of you, Cody 1611, do you believe in the Trinity?

 

[Cody1611]

I believe there is only one True and Living God. He is the Creator, Preserver, and Ruler of the universe. God is a Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost - all equal, yet distinct.

1 John 5:7 “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” KJV

 

[adstrinity]

Then, is it correct to say, you view the Son as God, that is, Jesus is God?

 

[SalomeBintullah]

Humble Questions…

Why do you pray through saints when the Bible says there is ONE mediator? Also, where in the Bible does it tell us to pray through saints?
**
1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” KJV**

Another question…

Where in the Bible does it say that Mary was the mother of God? I know that she is the mother of Jesus Christ, God manifest, but God is eternal and was before Mary. To me the Bible teaches that Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, but not God the Father, Creator of the Universe.

Also, I understand that the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was a Virgin, even after Jesus Christ was born.

Mary was a virgin at Christ’s birth, but notice in the below verse it says “her firstborn son”.
**
Matthew 1:25 “And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.” KJV**

Mary had other children.

Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?” KJV

Also, look at Matthew 12:46, Mark 3:31; 6:3, Luke 8:19, John 2:12.

These were not His spiritual brothers because they did not believe in Him until the resurrection.
**
John 7:5 “For neither did his brethren believe in him.” KJV**

The Bible makes clear between Jesus’ physical and spiritual brothers.

John 2:12 “After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.” KJV
**
Other questions…**

Is there scriptural proof for Purgatory?

Thank you for your attention and God bless

Cody, Catholic Answers has some faith tracts on your questions. They provide the relevant scriptural support as well as historical/early Christian evidence. I’ll post links to them for you to read.

On saintly intercession/praying to the saints:
The Intercession of the Saints
Praying to the Saints
Saint Worship?

Mary as Mother of God:
Mary: Mother of God

Mary’s perpetual virginity:
Mary: Ever Virgin
“Brethren of the Lord”

Purgatory:
Purgatory
The Roots of Purgatory

If you are able to get ahold of them, I recommend Catholicism & Fundamentalism by Karl Keating, Hail, Holy Queen: The Mother of God in the Word of God by Scott Hahn, and Born Fundamentalist, Born again Catholic by David Currie. All three of these books address some or all of the questions that you have, and many more besides.

I hope this helps for starters.

 

[Cody1611]

Then, is it correct to say, you view the Son as God, that is, Jesus is God?

I view Jesus as God, but I don’t view Jesus as the Father. I believe they are separate.

 

[Cody1611]

If you are able to get ahold of them, I recommend Catholicism & Fundamentalism by Karl Keating, Hail, Holy Queen: The Mother of God in the Word of God by Scott Hahn, and Born Fundamentalist, Born again Catholic by David Currie. All three of these books address some or all of the questions that you have, and many more besides.

Have you ever seen the debate between Karl Keating and Dr. Peter S. Ruckman?

http://www.baptist1611.com/forum/showthread.php?p=169#post169

 

[adstrinity]

I view Jesus as God, but I don’t view Jesus as the Father. I believe they are separate.

Very good. We are on the same page. Do you regard Jesus as your Lord?

 

[SalomeBintullah]

Have you ever seen the debate between Karl Keating and Dr. Peter S. Ruckman?

Hehe. Yes, actually, I think I have. May I respectfully say that Dr. Ruckman does not have a good grasp on Catholicism at all. He was arguing with a straw man much of the time in that debate, and he was not charitable either.

 

[Cody1611]

Very good. We are on the same page. Do you regard Jesus as your Lord?

Yes, I called on the Lord Jesus Christ to save me on May 13, 2002.

Romans 10:9 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” KJV

 

[Cody1611]

Hehe. Yes, actually, I think I have. May I respectfully say that Dr. Ruckman does not have a good grasp on Catholicism at all. He was arguing with a straw man much of the time in that debate, and he was not charitable either.

What did Dr. Ruckman misunderstand about Catholicism in the debate?

 

[SalomeBintullah]

What did Dr. Ruckman misunderstand about Catholicism in the debate?

Well, it’s been several months since I’ve watched it, but I can recall one thing clearly that he misunderstood: he thought that the Catholic Church making someone “anathema” meant that that person was being declared “damned to hell.” As Keating eventually points out, someone who is anathemized is excommunicated, not damned. It quite took the wind out of Ruckman’s sails for a moment, if I recall. Unfortunately, I don’t have the time right now to watch the whole 4+ hour debate again, as I’m going out to dinner soon. But if you’re genuinely interested in knowing what else he got wrong, I could always rewatch it later and then post my replies. For now, I recommend reading those links I gave you to get started.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Humble Questions…

Why do you pray through saints when the Bible says there is ONE mediator? Also, where in the Bible does it tell us to pray through saints?
**
1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” KJV**

I think this was the topic of another thread that we both just left. Short answer is that Catholics readily acknowledge that Christ is the one mediator between God and man. The saints in heaven are intercessors because they were baptised into Christ as were we all (christians). Just as you would ask your fellow christians on earth for their prayers (Catholics do this as well), Catholics include the saints in heaven in our prayer requests. We believe they are able to intercede BECAUSE of Christ’s one mediatorship, not apart from it. In other words, saints in heaven do not take the place of Christ. They are not another way to the Father. They stand next to us and pray with us to the Father - through the Son as our mediator.

Cody1611:

Where in the Bible does it say that Mary was the mother of God?

Read the 1st Chapter of Luke.

[41] And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit
[42] and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
[43] And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (Lk 1:41-43)

Mary is the Mother of my Lord. My Lord is Jesus Christ - Second Person of the Trinity. Catholics believe the Second Person of the Trinity is fully God. Mary is the Mother of God. The title does not establish that Mary is the creator of God. Nor does the title establish that she somehow pre-dated the Second Person of the Trinity who is eternal like the Father and the Holy Spirit. Nor does the Title mean that Mary is mother of the other Personages of the Trinity. Rather, the title conveys the fullness of the divinity and the humanity of Jesus Christ.

Cody1611:

Also, I understand that the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was a Virgin, even after Jesus Christ was born.

Not just the Roman Catholic Church, but the other apostolic Churches as well… the Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches also accept the perpetual virginity of Mary, as did the Reformers Luther, Calvin and Zwingli. There is a long discussion of this issue in a thread I recently participated in here. This thread addresses all of the passages and arguments you raised and presents the Catholic position on the issue from a number of posters

Cody1611:

Is there scriptural proof for Purgatory?

Yes. That’s why Luther threw out the books of scripture that supported the doctrine - Maccabees provides a direct proof of those in the afterlife being in need of atonement to deliver them from an intermediary place. 2 Macc 12:44-46.

1 Cor. also holds an indirect reference to the doctrine of purgatory:

[11]
For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw –
[13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
[14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Cor 3:11-15)

Of course, Catholics would disagree with your underlying premise that doctrine must be proven expressly by Scripture. Catholics believe that it is not by Scripture alone that we have been given the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. We also acknowledge Sacred Tradition as another source (but never a contrary source) of doctrine. Tradition has taught the doctrine of Purgatory from the beginning, although the term itself and the Church’s understanding of the doctrine has developed over the centuries.

Cody1611:

Thank you for your attention and God bless

You are very welcome.

Peace,
Robert

 

[adstrinity]

Yes, I called on the Lord Jesus Christ to save me on May 13, 2002.

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." KJV

Alright. Logically. If Jesus is God, and Mary is the Mother of Jesus…naturally, that would mean that Mary IS the Mother of God. She is not a creator/creatress, she was not before all, but, she IS the Mother of God.

In Luke 1:43, St. Elizabeth asks, “And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (It wouldn’t hurt to read this in context, 1:40 - 56.) She acknowledged that Jesus is her Lord. She already realized that there was something about that Baby because of the reaction of her baby.

You said that Jesus is your Lord. If you accept Him as your Lord, and you accept this Lord as God, and Mary as Mother of Your Lord, it could make sense then that Mary is the Mother of God.

We never ever EVER claim that she is the Mother of God the Father. She is the Daughter of the Father. The error is that when we say/hear “God”, we only think of “God the Father” because Jesus Christ has His own Name and The Holy Spirit has an independant title, though, He, too, is Lord and God.

As for the brethren arguement, note that each and every time the Bible mentions the brothers of Jesus, that is how they are identified, as the Brothers of Jesus. They are NEVER reffered to as sons of Mary. As a matter of fact, if one looks elsewhere in the Bible, one sees that they do indeed have other Mothers.

The Orthodox hold that St. James the Greater IS Jesus’ step brother, as he was the son of St. Joseph.

 

[SalomeBintullah]

Cody, may I also recommend the excellent website Scripture Catholic. Here are their pages on Mary, saintly intercession, and purgatory.

 

[Erich]

****Humble Questions…

Actually, every one of your questions would make an excellent thread on its own. Five questions in one thread will be like trying to drink from a firehose.

Mary was a virgin at Christ’s birth, but notice in the below verse it says “her firstborn son”.
Mary had other children.

Also, look at Matthew 12:46, Mark 3:31; 6:3, Luke 8:19, John 2:12.

For example, this thread clearly shows that each of the four brethren of Jesus named in the Gospels is a child of parents other than Joseph and the Virgin Mary.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Yes, I called on the Lord Jesus Christ to save me on May 13, 2002.

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." KJV

I call on the Lord to save me every day. He’s never let me down.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Actually, every one of your questions would make an excellent thread on its own. Five questions in one thread will be like trying to drink from a firehose.

I agree. Just a suggestion to you Cody1611. You may want to take these issues individually by separate thread. Setting out all these different issues in one thread tends to create the forum equivalent of a cacophany. Just a humble suggestion - no sarcasm or criticism intended.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Cody1611]

I think this was the topic of another thread that we both just left. Short answer is that Catholics readily acknowledge that Christ is the one mediator between God and man. The saints in heaven are intercessors because they were baptised into Christ as were we all (christians). Just as you would ask your fellow christians on earth for their prayers (Catholics do this as well), Catholics include the saints in heaven in our prayer requests. We believe they are able to intercede BECAUSE of Christ’s one mediatorship, not apart from it. In other words, saints in heaven do not take the place of Christ. They are not another way to the Father. They stand next to us and pray with us to the Father - through the Son as our mediator.

Read the 1st Chapter of Luke.

Mary is the Mother of my Lord. My Lord is Jesus Christ - Second Person of the Trinity. Catholics believe the Second Person of the Trinity is fully God. Mary is the Mother of God. The title does not establish that Mary is the creator of God. Nor does the title establish that she somehow pre-dated the Second Person of the Trinity who is eternal like the Father and the Holy Spirit. Nor does the Title mean that Mary is mother of the other Personages of the Trinity. Rather, the title conveys the fullness of the divinity and the humanity of Jesus Christ.

Not just the Roman Catholic Church, but the other apostolic Churches as well… the Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches also accept the perpetual virginity of Mary, as did the Reformers Luther, Calvin and Zwingli. There is a long discussion of this issue in a thread I recently participated in here. This thread addresses all of the passages and arguments you raised and presents the Catholic position on the issue from a number of posters

Yes. That’s why Luther threw out the books of scripture that supported the doctrine - Maccabees provides a direct proof of those in the afterlife being in need of atonement to deliver them from an intermediary place. 2 Macc 12:44-46.

1 Cor. also holds an indirect reference to the doctrine of purgatory:

Of course, Catholics would disagree with your underlying premise that doctrine must be proven expressly by Scripture. Catholics believe that it is not by Scripture alone that we have been given the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. We also acknowledge Sacred Tradition as another source (but never a contrary source) of doctrine. Tradition has taught the doctrine of Purgatory from the beginning, although the term itself and the Church’s understanding of the doctrine has developed over the centuries.

You are very welcome.

Peace,
Robert

I still don’t see why you would even bother praying through anyone else, when you can pray to Jesus Christ. Especially, when there is no where in scripture where it says to pray through someone other than Jesus Christ, the one mediator.

I agree that Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, God manifest, but what I’m trying to say is that Mary did not give birth to the Father.

Can you show me the verse in 1 Corinthians that you are saying refers to Purgatory?

Concerning the tradition of men…

Colossians 2:8 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” KJV

 

[PJM]

=Cody1611;5306623]Humble Questions…

Why do you pray through saints when the Bible says there is ONE mediator? Also, where in the Bible does it tell us to pray through saints?
**
1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” KJV**

**As you phrased it, its a very good question.

To Informed, practicing Catholics, Mary and the saints are not “mediators” they are "intercessors “[kinda like “beggers” for us before God whom they see face to face.” We pray THROUGH them, not literally “so much to them” although we do that also.**

Another question…
Where in the Bible does it say that Mary was the mother of God? I know that she is the mother of Jesus Christ, God manifest, but God is eternal and was before Mary.**

Lk. 1:26 "In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, **“Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” ** But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.” And Mary said to the angel, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?” 35 And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born * will be called holy, the Son of God."

Jesus is God!
Mary is the Mother of Jesus
Therefore Mary the Mother of Jesus is defacto: The Mother of God!

Also, I understand that the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was a Virgin, even after Jesus Christ was born.

**You are correct. So why is this?

Consider what Yahweh God specified and demanded from Moses for The Ark of the Covenant which only held “the spirit of God” NOT the very Son of God. Gen 25: 10-30…“PURE GOLD” is demanded.** If God demanded and specified this for “His Spirit” what would God do and mandate for His very Son?

**Everything that happened to Mary was a consequence of her YES to God to be the Mother of God. In this capacity, and THROUGH the very merits of her son Jesus, Mary was Perfected, Body and soul, becasue God is perfect, so then to Mary also **had to be **MADE perfect inorder to being the “perfect Son of God into the World.”**This was a singular honor befitting the Mother of God! A series of special Gifts from God THROUGH Mary in honor of His Son Jesus!

Mary was a virgin at Christ’s birth, but notice in the below verse it says “her firstborn son”.** Matthew 1:25 “And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.” KJV**

Not enough space to be too specific, but the terminoligy “first born” is signifiant in Jewish tradition, in that the “first born” was the one who inherited [in this case the “throne of King David”] the families “treasures, such as they might be.”

Mary had other children.

Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?” KJV

Also, look at Matthew 12:46, Mark 3:31; 6:3, Luke 8:19, John 2:12.

Again space does not allow a sufficient responce. ask this on a seperate thread, and you’ll get your answer. Here is a short reply.

** # 500 **“Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus. The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, “brothers of Jesus”, are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls “the other Mary”. They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression.”

Other questions…

I

s there scriptural proof for Purgatory?

2 Mac. 12: 44-45, 1 Cor. 3:15 and Mt. 5:26 all speak of it.

Thank you for your attention and God bless

Love and prayers,
Pat