Humble Questions to Catholics

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Humble Questions…

Why do you pray through saints when the Bible says there is ONE mediator?

Short answers​

• Most mediators are not God - Jesus Christ is God as well as man
• the Saints and angels are creatures: IOW, not God. So, Jesus Christ is not equal to them, nor they to Him. So it is impossible to compare the Incomparable Christ with any Saint, whether angel or man
• So if they mediate at all - & they do - it can only be because He works through them. And what created thing is there, which works independently of Him?
• So mediation, as understood within the Catholic vision of reality, is not an addition to His working, that has been impertinently “tacked on” by the Church: it is the normal way that God works. To act as a creature is to be a means, a mediator, of God’s action. What Christians of various Churches call mediation, is simply this working of God, through others, in a specifically theological context: it’s a special application of how God works in the world He has created.

Also, where in the Bible does it tell us to pray through saints?

It doesn’t - we do so because what is said about Christ & the sort of Person He is, makes this appropriate.​

And, the practice, though justifiable by Scripture, is not founded on it: it is older than the collection of all 27 NT books into a single body of canonised texts. The requirement for explicit Biblical texts is for that reason not as weighty an objection as it may seem; it presupposes that the NT as available now, was always available then: but to “compare Scripture with Scripture”, though very useful, is a bit difficult if there are doubts as to which books are to be recognised as Scripture; & for a long time, even though the uncertainties must not be exaggerated, that was the case.

What is the practice founded on then ? On the Fact of Christ - IOW, on a Person Whose Life & Acts had been experienced, rather then on texts about Him.

1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” KJV

That’s not an objection - it has to be true if the Catholic practice is to be theologically justifiable. If Christ were not the Sole Mediator, the mediation of the Saints through Him would be impossible, & would not even be Christian.​

Another question…

Where in the Bible does it say that Mary was the mother of God? I know that she is the mother of Jesus Christ, God manifest, but God is eternal and was before Mary. To me the Bible teaches that Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, but not God the Father, Creator of the Universe.

Jesus Christ is a Divine Person Who has been born in a human nature, as “God-with-us” in the most intimate sense possible. His human nature is not eternal, but created. Unsurprisingly, as his mother was created. Our faith is, that He acquired His humanity from Mary - but not His Divinity: that, would be unthinkable . As this man Jesus, the man Who is God Incarnate, is born of a woman, that woman is His mother. For women are mothers not of natures but of persons. As He is not a *human *person (ontologically, that is - we are not talking about His human psychology), & as this human nature has been assumed by the Divine Person Who is God the Word, Mary is the mother of God the Word Incarnate, Jesus Christ the Lord.​

And there is Scripture for this, as in Luke 1.

Also, I understand that the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was a Virgin, even after Jesus Christ was born.

Mary was a virgin at Christ’s birth, but notice in the below verse it says “her firstborn son”.

Matthew 1:25 “And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.” KJV

Mary had other children.

Matthew 13:55 "Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?" KJV

Also, look at Matthew 12:46, Mark 3:31; 6:3, Luke 8:19, John 2:12.

These were not His spiritual brothers because they did not believe in Him until the resurrection.

John 7:5 “For neither did his brethren believe in him.” KJV

The Bible makes clear between Jesus’ physical and spiritual brothers.

John 2:12 “After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.” KJV

Other questions…

Is there scriptural proof for Purgatory?

Thank you for your attention and God bless

 

[Erich]

Cody,
Your questions are good ones but there is a far more important question that must be asked first.
To all our Catholic friend here is the question.
Q. Have you come to the place in your spiritual life where you know for sure that when you die that you will be in heaven with God?
Why or why not?

If even St. Paul did not know for sure, how can you expect any of us be sure?

“I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me” (1 Cor. 4:4).

“I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).

 

[Soutane]

If even St. Paul did not know for sure, how can you expect any of us be sure?

“I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me” (1 Cor. 4:4).

“I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).

Didn’t St Paul also advise us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling?And to also persevere to the end?If St Paul didn’t believe in OSAS and didn’t commit the sin of Presumption vis a vis his personal salvation,I don’t think I will either.Nor should anyone else.

 

[kalt]

Cody,
Your questions are good ones but there is a far more important question that must be asked first.
To all our Catholic friend here is the question.
Q. Have you come to the place in your spiritual life where you know for sure that when you die that you will be in heaven with God?
Why or why not?

No. Because the Bible tells me so.

 

[Cody1611]

Very good quotes. What happens to you if you commit a sin and die in the next minute?

Jesus died for all sins. When I accepted Christ, my sins(past, present, future) were put under the Blood of Christ. When I sin, God will chastise me or it will show up at the Judgment Seat of Christ, if I don’t confess it. I try to confess all of my sins though. I don’t believe you can lose salvation, it is a gift of God.

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

 

[regression]

Jesus died for all sins. When I accepted Christ, my sins(past, present, future) were put under the Blood of Christ. When I sin, God will chastise me or it will show up at the Judgment Seat of Christ, if I don’t confess it. I try to confess all of my sins though. I don’t believe you can lose salvation, it is a gift of God.

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

What do you believe would happen if someone accepted Christ, then a few years later murdered someone in cold blood and does not confess it? If it shows up at the Judgment Seat of Christ, what happens to that person?

 

[kalt]

Jesus died for all sins. When I accepted Christ, my sins(past, present, future) were put under the Blood of Christ. When I sin, God will chastise me or it will show up at the Judgment Seat of Christ, if I don’t confess it. I try to confess all of my sins though. I don’t believe you can lose salvation, it is a gift of God.

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

Doesn’t God expect us to repent for the sins we commit? How can you do this for things that haven’t happened yet?

If you can’t repent for things that haven’t happened yet, how can you be assured of your salvation?

 

[ricko]

Originally Posted by Cody1611
I don’t believe you can lose salvation, it is a gift of God.

Salvation is a gift of God, you’re right. Adam and Eve had eternal life and paradise, that also was a gift of God. They lost it didn’t they? Did God take it away or was it lost because they committed the sin of disobedience? You can also lose your salvation by YOUR actions (sin).

Rev 2:4–5, “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.”

Jesus is, first of all, talking to “the church at Ephesus.” The “church” is made up of believers, the saved. He tells those that have been saved that if they do not repent and “do the works” they had initially done, then He will come and remove their lampstand.

Don’t be mislead by the OSAS crew. They don’t quote the bible where it says that you can lose your salvation. The quotes they put up are true but they misconstrue what those verses really mean. God will not abandon you but you can abandon God by sinning. If you die with mortal sin on your soul you have lost your salvation. Death then judgement is what the bible says Cody. It does not say "Death, forgiveness, then judgement.

 

[FAB]

Jesus died for all sins. When I accepted Christ, my sins(past, present, future) were put under the Blood of Christ. When I sin, God will chastise me or it will show up at the Judgment Seat of Christ, if I don’t confess it. I try to confess all of my sins though. I don’t believe you can lose salvation, it is a gift of God.

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

There are a lot of excellant answer to your primary post, but this answer of yours caused me to pause.
As a Catholic I do believe that Christ died for our sins, but if I sin, I believe I must seek forgiveness in this life or be purified in purgetor before entering the kingdom. I also believe I must live the great commission of Christ and the scriptures.
In your answer, you seem to believe that once you have accepted Christ it doesn’t matter what you do in life or what sins you may commit. Is that living the word of Christ for you?

Peace,
FAB

 

[1edyson]

Cody,

I don’t have much more too add then whats already been said and that is on going but I want to thank you for being open and earnest with your questions of the Catholic Church. I find it a breath of fresh air to see that you are looking and willing to have full discussion about all of these subjects.

 

[saramichelle6]

Humble Questions…

Why do you pray through saints when the Bible says there is ONE mediator? Also, where in the Bible does it tell us to pray through saints?
**
1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” KJV**

I’ll only attempt to answer this small part of your post.

When I was researching and praying about God and “religion” and where God fit in me and where I fit in God’s plan, I asked this same question of a Catholic friend of mine. He explained it to me like this:

If you were sick, would you ask your friends to pray for you? If you were having a really rough patch in life, would you ask your friends to pray for you? I answered yes. My friend said to think of the Saints as your personal “prayer chain” or “prayer team.” We don’t pray TO them because we think THEY PERSONALLY can cause change, but ask for them to use their prayers in heaven to advocate for our cause.

I don’t know if this is the apologetic reasoning for Saints’ intercession, but I really like this explanation and I think it paints the big picture accurately.

God Bless

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I still don’t see why you would even bother praying through anyone else, when you can pray to Jesus Christ. Especially, when there is no where in scripture where it says to pray through someone other than Jesus Christ, the one mediator.

You misunderstood my response. Jesus is necessarily part of every prayer to a saint. Saints are not an alternate route to God. Saints pray with us because they - like us - are part of the Body of Christ. It is through Jesus that the saints pray with us. And we do so because it edifies and builds up the Body of Christ. And we do it because we are one family of God, and that’s what families do for each other.

On a fundamental level, I guess it comes down to this… Do you see your personal relationship with Jesus Christ to be a “me and Jesus only” kind of relationship, or do you see your personal relationship with Jesus as one that includes all your adopted brothers and sisters in Christ as well? If the latter, then why would you *not *want to consider asking your elder brothers and sisters in the faith to pray with you to the Father, include them in your joys and sorrows, and allow them to cheer you on like the cloud of witnesses that scripture tells us about? We are not orphans in Christ. We are a huge adopted family with a home

Cody1611:

I agree that Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, God manifest, but what I’m trying to say is that Mary did not give birth to the Father.

Catholics agree with you here. Mary gave birth to the Son - the Second Person of the Trinity. The Second Person of the Trinity is not the First Person (Father). They are two different Persons. But a separate Truth is that Jesus IS God. You agree that Jesus Christ the Second Person of the Trinity is fully God. And you agree that Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ. That means that you agree with the Catholic teaching that Mary is the mother of God. As I noted, Catholics do not believe that Mary is the Mother of the Trinity, nor is she the mother of the Father and/or the Holy Spirit. Asserting such a thing would be the denial of the Trinity of One God in three Separate Persons.

Cody1611:

Can you show me the verse in 1 Corinthians that you are saying refers to Purgatory?

(1 Cor. 3:11-15 - below) The passage below speaks of one who builds upon the foundation of their life in Jesus. They are a believer whose works are in Christ. Some works are gold, silver and precious stones, which would be works done in Christ that are pleasing to God, while the works of wood, hay, and straw would be the works that fall short, because they are not done in Christ, or are sinful, or are otherwise contrary to God’s law. "The “Day” on which these works are disclosed is referring to our day of judgment, when these works are revealed with fire that tests the work we have done - both good and bad. The good works that survive the testing by fire are the basis for our reward in heaven while the works of wood, hay and straw are burned in the fire… the man being tested suffers loss, but is saved… but only as through fire.

As catholics we believe this passage is referring to that period after death and before entering heaven, where our works are tested and those bad works (meaning our human attachment to sin that remains even after our sins are forgiven by Christ) are purged away by the fiery love of God… that we may enter heaven clean and purified, holy and without any remaining attachment to sin. We call that process Purgatory. It is only for those who die in friendship with God. Not everyone will need this final purging, but I’m pretty sure I will because I know despite the fact that I am forgiven I still harbor attachment to sin that makes me imperfect and unclean. Purgatory is where God will clean me up by removing those last vestiges of attachment to sin that remained even though my sins were forgiven.

[11] For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw –
[13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
[14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Cody,
Your questions are good ones but there is a far more important question that must be asked first.
To all our Catholic friend here is the question.
Q. Have you come to the place in your spiritual life where you know for sure that when you die that you will be in heaven with God?
Why or why not?

To a moral certainty, yes I can know this. I also know that if I choose to do so I can make shipwreck of my faith. But I trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as my savior.

If you are trying to speak of the doctrine of “once saved always saved” in which some protestant denominations believe one cannot lose their salvation no matter what sins they later commit… then I respectfully reject that doctrine because it is simply not supported by Christian history or the texts of Scripture. The topic should be its own thread. I don’t like to hijack other posters’ topics.

Peace,
Robert

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by DLClark
Cody,
Your questions are good ones but there is a far more important question that must be asked first.
To all our Catholic friend here is the question.
Q. Have you come to the place in your spiritual life where you know for sure that when you die that you will be in heaven with God?
Why or why not?

No, and even though you may not accept it, neither do you!

Why? Because of who and what God are, and because the bible say’s it is NOT so!

God can rightly be describes as "all, and only, everything that is good, Perfectly!

Read Mt, 16:19, Mt. 18:18. 1 John Ch. 5, Jn. 20:23-24, John 3:5, John 3:36, Mt. 19:16 and 2 Timothy 3: 16.

After you do this, please expalin to us where in the Bible does it say specifically that “by faith alone” are we saved. Not only is it NOT biblival, it is not even logical, because it completely ingores that God is and has to be, and must be all perfectly FAIR and Just.

Then reread 1 Jn. chapetr 5, John 20; 23-24, and Mt. 16: 19. How do you reconcle your opijnion and what the bible actually says?

Love and prayers,

 

[Cody1611]

What do you believe would happen if someone accepted Christ, then a few years later murdered someone in cold blood and does not confess it? If it shows up at the Judgment Seat of Christ, what happens to that person?

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

 

[Cody1611]

Doesn’t God expect us to repent for the sins we commit? How can you do this for things that haven’t happened yet?

If you can’t repent for things that haven’t happened yet, how can you be assured of your salvation?

Yes, we should repent of all our sins. I can’t confess sins that I have not committed yet, but Jesus died for them already. It is my duty as a loyal Christian to come to God and repent of my sins every time I sin. I know I’m saved because when God sees me, He sees the Blood of the Lamb.

Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

AND WHEN HE SEES ME HE SEES THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB
HE SEES ME AS WORTHY AND NOT AS I AM
HE VIEWS ME IN GARMENTS AS WHITE AS THE SNOW
FOR THE LAMB OF GOD IS WORTHY AND HE WASHED ME THIS I KNOW.

 

[Cody1611]

Salvation is a gift of God, you’re right. Adam and Eve had eternal life and paradise, that also was a gift of God. They lost it didn’t they? Did God take it away or was it lost because they committed the sin of disobedience? You can also lose your salvation by YOUR actions (sin).

Rev 2:4–5, “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.”

Jesus is, first of all, talking to “the church at Ephesus.” The “church” is made up of believers, the saved. He tells those that have been saved that if they do not repent and “do the works” they had initially done, then He will come and remove their lampstand.

Don’t be mislead by the OSAS crew. They don’t quote the bible where it says that you can lose your salvation. The quotes they put up are true but they misconstrue what those verses really mean. God will not abandon you but you can abandon God by sinning. If you die with mortal sin on your soul you have lost your salvation. Death then judgement is what the bible says Cody. It does not say "Death, forgiveness, then judgement.

All of the Bible is FOR us, but not all of the Bible was written TO us for doctrine. Don’t get me wrong, we need to study all of the Bible. Biblically speaking, I am a Gentile and I’m in the Church Age. I am saved by Faith alone by the Blood of Christ. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul preached Salvation was by Faith alone. Show me one verse in Romans-Philemon that shows you can lose your Salvation or that you need to work to stay saved.

I’m sure most of you think that Baptists are saying…go sin and fun, it doesn’t matter you can’t lose your Salvation, but that is not the case. We believe that you are Saved by the Blood of Christ and you are Eternally Secure. Although, if you sin God will chastise you. If you sin, you will not have close fellowship with God and it is horrible to go through life and not close to God. If you don’t repent, unconfessed sins come up at the Judgment Seat of Christ. And I’m sure you all know that Baptists preach against sin regularly. So, don’t get the idea that we don’t hate sin or we don’t want to do what God commands us to do in the Bible.

 

[regression]

All of the Bible is FOR us, but not all of the Bible was written TO us for doctrine. Don’t get me wrong, we need to study all of the Bible. Biblically speaking, I am a Gentile and I’m in the Church Age. I am saved by Faith alone by the Blood of Christ. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul preached Salvation was by Faith alone. Show me one verse in Romans-Philemon that shows you can lose your Salvation or that you need to work to stay saved.

I’m sure most of you think that Baptists are saying…go sin and fun, it doesn’t matter you can’t lose your Salvation, but that is not the case. We believe that you are Saved by the Blood of Christ and you are Eternally Secure. Although, if you sin God will chastise you. If you sin, you will not have close fellowship with God and it is horrible to go through life and not close to God. If you don’t repent, unconfessed sins come up at the Judgment Seat of Christ. And I’m sure you all know that Baptists preach against sin regularly. So, don’t get the idea that we don’t hate sin or we don’t want to do what God commands us to do in the Bible.

Thank you for your reply to my earlier post, I know it was a bit of an extreme example. I am still not clear what happens to a person if they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, then sin in this life, like we all do, and is not sorry. Those unconfessed sins will come up at the Judgment Seat of Christ. So the person will either end up in heaven or hell, right? In this scenario, where do you think the person would end up?

 

[saieditor]

Another question…

Where in the Bible does it say that Mary was the mother of God?

Every person is born of a woman.

Everyone has a mother. You need the Bible to say that?

First common sense, then spiritual sense.

Many questions were resolved by the Early Church Councils. Half the stuff you believe and practice as a Baptist was resolved by a Council.

 

[ricko]

Originally Posted by Cody1611

**All of the Bible is FOR us, but not all of the Bible was written TO us for doctrine. Don’t get me wrong, we need to study all of the Bible. Biblically speaking, I am a Gentile and I’m in the Church Age. **I am saved by Faith alone by the Blood of Christ. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul preached Salvation was by Faith alone. Show me one verse in Romans-Philemon that shows you can lose your Salvation or that you need to work to stay saved.

Cody, what do you mean by the statement I’ve put in bold above? I need to know exactly what you mean.

First off, the bible does not say you are saved by faith ALONE. The only place “faith alone” is used is here:
“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James 2:24.

Now I could post more on works but it’s not who can come up with the greatest number of verses that proves a point. The bible just said that your teaching is incorrect. You cannot pick and choose which parts in the bible to keep and which to discard. Clearly salvation is not by faith alone.