Humble Questions to Catholics

[Gottle_of_Geer]

What do you believe would happen if someone accepted Christ, then a few years later murdered someone in cold blood and does not confess it? If it shows up at the Judgment Seat of Christ, what happens to that person?

What would happen if the sky fell (as in the nursery rhyme) ?​

Same answer: both questions are pseudo-questions, because they start by assuming as real something is not real. The dynamic of the preservation of the saints by God, & the nature of this preservation, are what makes the final damnation of the elect impossible. One might as well ask, “What would happen if God commanded the Church to adore Satan ?” It’s an absurd question, so it’s a waste of time. For God is not like that. Some things there are that He will not do; for to do them, would be to deny Himself - which He cannot do.

The external act of accepting Christ means nothing by itself anyway - not if the Gospel has not been effectually preached, & the heart converted to God by the attracting power of the Holy Spirit. It is nothing, if God is not in it. The objection emphasises man - & man is grass, dust, flesh: so, if we look to man, we shall find only reasons to despair of our weakness. But that is to forget God, Who is greater than all creatures; it is to look everywhere except where we need to. A further point: it makes a difference whether man & God are thought of as co-causes of the effect of salvation, like two rivers flowing together from different heads to make one river; or whether we think of human activity as in some sense “contained within” that of God. Other pictures & models of the “relation” between God’s Activity & man’s are possible…

The elect are the true Church, the Church as foreknown & predestined by God; the others are members only of the Church on earth, but not also in Heaven. And only the elect receive the Gospel effectually; they alone are the heirs of salvation. Only they have received the pledge which is the Holy Spirit - & this pledge is a foretaste of the glory that shall be theirs hereafter. Are we to suppose that God cannot protect his against final damnation ? Such a notion eviscerates the Gospel & His promises & much more; it would be better to be an atheist than believe in so poor, puny, weak, unfaithful & deceitful a God A God who cannot save His own from the evil within them that would if He did not over-rule destroy them, is weaker than any idol.

 

[sixofseven]

All of the Bible is FOR us, but not all of the Bible was written TO us for doctrine. Don’t get me wrong, we need to study all of the Bible. Biblically speaking, I am a Gentile and I’m in the Church Age. I am saved by Faith alone by the Blood of Christ. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul preached Salvation was by Faith alone. Show me one verse in Romans-Philemon that shows you can lose your Salvation or that you need to work to stay saved.

I’m sure most of you think that Baptists are saying…go sin and fun, it doesn’t matter you can’t lose your Salvation, but that is not the case. We believe that you are Saved by the Blood of Christ and you are Eternally Secure. Although, if you sin God will chastise you. If you sin, you will not have close fellowship with God and it is horrible to go through life and not close to God. If you don’t repent, unconfessed sins come up at the Judgment Seat of Christ. And I’m sure you all know that Baptists preach against sin regularly. So, don’t get the idea that we don’t hate sin or we don’t want to do what God commands us to do in the Bible.

Hi Cody,

I think you’ve asked some great questions and people are providing great answers for you to consider. I hope that you are considering them.

You said: If you don’t repent, unconfessed sins come up at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

So what do you think happens when those unconfessed sins come up? Catholics believe we have to be purified from those sins before we can enter Heaven. Do you agree?

What the passage about gold that tested in fire??

We HAVE to be pure to enter Heaven, nothing unclean can enter - agree?

Other people have asked what happens if someone who is ‘saved’ sins and then dies. You say that God will chastise us - how? If the sins happens and we die before repenting how can/will God chastise us for that sin?

I like to think of it this way: two white shirts (Christians!), but they are stained, one more than the other - lets say one tries ever so hard not to get dirty but oops spills some red wine. The other has been in a rugby match, running around without a care for cleaniness and has been sliding all through the mud. The dirtier shirt will need longer to soak and more scrubbing before it is clean. The cleaner shirt will be out on the line before you know it, bright and dazzling under the Sun (or Son!), and the dirtier shirt will eventually join the other one on the line, but only when the stain has been completely washed out. Agree?

It’s the same with Purgatory, we need to be purified from our sins and some of us have sinned more than others, so we might take a bit longer, or need harsher treatment to be cleansed.

I don’t know the boundaries of time after death but God is fair and merciful and He will judge us according to what we have done - don’t you think it fair and merciful that some will need harsher or longer chastisement?

 

[regression]

Hi Cody,

I think you’ve asked some great questions and people are providing great answers for you to consider. I hope that you are considering them.

You said: If you don’t repent, unconfessed sins come up at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

So what do you think happens when those unconfessed sins come up? Catholics believe we have to be purified from those sins before we can enter Heaven. Do you agree?

What the passage about gold that tested in fire??

We HAVE to be pure to enter Heaven, nothing unclean can enter - agree?

Other people have asked what happens if someone who is ‘saved’ sins and then dies. You say that God will chastise us - how? If the sins happens and we die before repenting how can/will God chastise us for that sin?

I like to think of it this way: two white shirts (Christians!), but they are stained, one more than the other - lets say one tries ever so hard not to get dirty but oops spills some red wine. The other has been in a rugby match, running around without a care for cleaniness and has been sliding all through the mud. The dirtier shirt will need longer to soak and more scrubbing before it is clean. The cleaner shirt will be out on the line before you know it, bright and dazzling under the Sun (or Son!), and the dirtier shirt will eventually join the other one on the line, but only when the stain has been completely washed out. Agree?

It’s the same with Purgatory, we need to be purified from our sins and some of us have sinned more than others, so we might take a bit longer, or need harsher treatment to be cleansed.

I don’t know the boundaries of time after death but God is fair and merciful and He will judge us according to what we have done - don’t you think it fair and merciful that some will need harsher or longer chastisement?

That was exactly what I was trying to get at. You put it much more eloquently than I could. I don’t think I would make a very good apologist…

 

[kalt]

Yes, we should repent of all our sins. I can’t confess sins that I have not committed yet, but Jesus died for them already. It is my duty as a loyal Christian to come to God and repent of my sins every time I sin. I know I’m saved because when God sees me, He sees the Blood of the Lamb.

Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

And what if someone doesn’t confess before he dies? What if someone isn’t repentant for a sin? Will the unrepentant enter Heaven?

 

[Shannon9791]

All of the Bible is FOR us, but not all of the Bible was written TO us for doctrine. Don’t get me wrong, we need to study all of the Bible. Biblically speaking, I am a Gentile and I’m in the Church Age. I am saved by Faith alone by the Blood of Christ. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul preached Salvation was by Faith alone. Show me one verse in Romans-Philemon that shows you can lose your Salvation or that you need to work to stay saved.

Let’s look at the quote you dropped a little while ago to show that what you said above is not right.

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

If you are saved by your Faith alone, why will you receive anything according to what you have done, good or bad? Looks to me like you will be judged based on things you did while you were living. I’ve said this before on other threads, and I will continue to ask until I get a decent answer. Why are non-Catholic Christians so afraid of verbs? There are things we must do as Christians to remain in the Love of the Lord. Even not sinning takes some form of action on your part.

 

[kalt]

Let’s look at the quote you dropped a little while ago to show that what you said above is not right.

If you are saved by your Faith alone, why will you receive anything according to what you have done, good or bad? Looks to me like you will be judged based on things you did while you were living. I’ve said this before on other threads, and I will continue to ask until I get a decent answer. Why are non-Catholic Christians so afraid of verbs? There are things we must do as Christians to remain in the Love of the Lord. Even not sinning takes some form of action on your part.

They say that they are “chastised” by God when they sin. I hope someone who believes this will give an example of a chastisement they’ve recieved from God. Or is it that they will be chastised at judgement. If so, what does this chastisement involve?

I think we all agree that Jesus’ sacrafice is sufficient to “cover” all of our sins, as they say. But we disagree on what that means. To us, it means that we can be forgiven for the sins we commit. It doesn’t mean that we are forgiven for these sins before we commit them or before we are sorry for them. Forgiveness requires repentance, I think.

It seems that people who believe in osas know that what they do matters. But I think that they believe that it doesn’t matter all that much. They will be chastised, but that’s the extent of it. They know they’ll have ot hear a lecture, endure a slap on the wrist or some other such thing, but that even being unrepentant for serious sins will never result in anything other than this chastisement.

It also seems that they have some understanding of purgatory. They seem to be saying that they will have to be cleansed of their sins (the chastisement) before they can enter Heaven.

God leads, but he doesn’t insist. Everyone is free, at any time, to turn his back on God.

 

[Shannon9791]

They say that they are “chastised” by God when they sin. I hope someone who believes this will give an example of a chastisement they’ve recieved from God. Or is it that they will be chastised at judgement. If so, what does this chastisement involve?

I think we all agree that Jesus’ sacrafice is sufficient to “cover” all of our sins, as they say. But we disagree on what that means. To us, it means that we can be forgiven for the sins we commit. It doesn’t mean that we are forgiven for these sins before we commit them or before we are sorry for them. Forgiveness requires repentance, I think.

It seems that people who believe in osas know that what they do matters. But I think that they believe that it doesn’t matter all that much. They will be chastised, but that’s the extent of it. They know they’ll have ot hear a lecture, endure a slap on the wrist or some other such thing, but that even being unrepentant for serious sins will never result in anything other than this chastisement.

It also seems that they have some understanding of purgatory. They seem to be saying that they will have to be cleansed of their sins (the chastisement) before they can enter Heaven.

God leads, but he doesn’t insist. Everyone is free, at any time, to turn his back on God.

I whole heartedly agree with you that forgiveness requires repentance, and since I can’t repent for things I haven’t yet done, how can I claim to be always forgiven for everything I do. That’s why I can’t make my brain understand how someone can believe in OSAS. It seems to me that those who believe in that doctrine are trying to take the easy way out. I hate hard work just as much as anyone else, but I know that what I’m working for is more than worth it. With OSAS it just seems like they’re playing the lottery, hoping that one day they’ll hit the jackpot, while we believe that through our hard work and perseverance we’ll be paid triple what they might win.

 

[koranist]

I was wondering whether Catholics have a standard way to pray and do they pray at certain times of the day. Do you guys pray alone or only in Church and do you guys bow or kneel or just sit.

 

[kalt]

I was wondering whether Catholics have a standard way to pray and do they pray at certain times of the day. Do you guys pray alone or only in Church and do you guys bow or kneel or just sit.

Standard. By that I guess you’re asking if we all pray the same prayers in the same position at the same time of day. The answer is, no.

There are some prayers that are said at the same time every day, but not all Catholics participate.

No, we never say a prayer outside of church. Just kidding. I’m just surprised that you actually wonder about that.

We pray in church and out. We pray while standing, sitting, kneeling, lying down. We bow before Christ in the Eucharist. In Roman Catholicism, we don’t bow otherwise. I’m not sure how it’s done in other Catholic rites, though.

 

[regression]

I was wondering whether Catholics have a standard way to pray and do they pray at certain times of the day. Do you guys pray alone or only in Church and do you guys bow or kneel or just sit.

Just adding to the above reply, what do you mean by standard? If you mean we only say prayers that are pre-written, then no. There are lots of prayers that we can choose from that are pre-written, as it where. But, we can (and in my opinion should) also pray “off the cuff” or just talking to God from our heart.

 

[koranist]

I meant something like this:

Traditional Jewish prayers

youtube.com/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg

Traditional Christian prayers

youtube.com/watch?v=TRLFeldPG3Y&feature=related

 

[nordskoven]

Saint Paul asked for prayer and we know the saints in Heaven can pray through Christ Jesus as can the saints on Earth. My mother is not my creator. The Virgin Mary is the Mother of God, not the creator of God, as Jesus Christ is all God and all Man. We honor her as the Woman of John’s Apocalypse, persecuted, as is her Son, Jesus Christ, and as are her “other children” the Body of Christ, the Church. For Hebrews, lineage is passed through the mother. As Christ’s mother, Mary Ever-Virgin is my mother, and the means of my ingrafting and adoption into the Body of Christ, the Church. May we pray for each other even as siblings to unite in Christ’s family.

 

[1edyson]

All of the Bible is FOR us, but not all of the Bible was written TO us for doctrine. Don’t get me wrong, we need to study all of the Bible. Biblically speaking, I am a Gentile and I’m in the Church Age. I am saved by Faith alone by the Blood of Christ. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul preached Salvation was by Faith alone. **Show me one verse in Romans-Philemon that shows you can lose your Salvation or that you need to work to stay saved.
**

Cody,

Thank you again for going so deeply and discussion so fervently and having real debate on these questions and assertions, but I have one quick question. So are you saying that there are parts of scripture that are more important for us to learn, or just plain out more important? And as far as examples, please read these in context of course but here are a few not all in Romans or in Philemon, but why just limit it to those books? Is it because these are addressed more towards Gentiles, like you and me, so I can just quickly glance at the rest of scripture for guidance as long as I focus in more on gentile directed books?

1 Cor 9:27 … after preaching … I myself disqualified.
1 Cor 10:12 … thinks that he stands … lest he fall.
Phil 2:12 … work out salvation with fear and trembling.
Heb 4:1 … fear of failing to reach salvation.
1 Jn 5:16,17 … some sins are mortal, some not.
Rom 11:21,22 … spare branches, continue or be cut off

I’m sure most of you think that Baptists are saying…go sin and fun, it doesn’t matter you can’t lose your Salvation, but that is not the case. We believe that you are Saved by the Blood of Christ and you are Eternally Secure. Although, if you sin God will chastise you. If you sin, you will not have close fellowship with God and it is horrible to go through life and not close to God. ** If you don’t repent, unconfessed sins come up at the Judgment Seat of Christ**. And I’m sure you all know that Baptists preach against sin regularly. So, don’t get the idea that we don’t hate sin or we don’t want to do what God commands us to do in the Bible.

No I’m sure none of us think that anyone that believe in sola fide think and go sin and fun. But we do believe that because you are human, have free will, and a fallen nature and that you WILL SIN, big or small sometime in the future either accidentally, or purposefully. So if by sinning God, Chastises us, and we will not have a close fellowship with God, and have a horrible life to go through, do we have to impeccable an life and NEVER sin on purpose or accident to have a close fellowship with God? Or do all of us, who are sinners, I know I am I go to confession at least once a month if not weekly, have no chance of having that close personal relationship? And what happens when the unconfessed sin comes up at judgment, do you need to go to some kind of purification so that we are holy all on the same level in heaven, or is there different levels for different people in heaven?
You are Christian, non-Catholic Christians, and we know you hate sin, and you have some of the best preaching in the west about sin, so thast not an assertion either, but doesn’t scripture say that no all those who say Lord Lord will be saved, but those that do the will of the Father will find salvation, sorry for not knowing the exact scripture passage on that one, but I’m sure you’ll know what I’m referring to

 

[Bill_Pick]

When Catholics pray to Mary and the other saints in Heaven they are not bypassing Christ, whom they acknowledge as the sole Mediator between God and man. They are going to Christ through Mary and the other saints. They are asking Mary and other saints to intercede for them before the throne of Christ in Heaven. “For the continual prayer of a just man avail much.” (James 5:16). How much more availing is the unceasing prayer of the sinless Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ! St. Paul asked his fellow Christians to intercede for him: “Brethren, pray for us.” (2 Thess. 3:1). And again: “I beseech you therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God…” (Rom. 15:30). Christ must particularly approve of our going to Him through Mary, His Blessed Mother, because He chose to come to us through her. And at Cana, He performed His first miracle after a word from His Mother. (John 2:2-11).

It is clear in Sacred Scripture that the saints in Heaven will intercede for us before the throne of Christ if they are petitioned in prayer (Apoc. Or Rev. 8:3-4), and it is clear in the records of primitive Christianity that the first Christians eagerly sought their intercession. Wrote St. John Chrysostom in the fourth century: “When thou perceives that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies, but to His friends, the martyrs the saints, and those who were pleasing to Him, and who have great power.” If the saints have such power with God, how much more His own Mother.

 

[PJM]

=Cody Yes, we should repent of all our sins. I can’t confess sins that I have not committed yet, but Jesus died for them already. It is my duty as a loyal Christian to come to God and repent of my sins every time I sin. ** I know I’m saved because when God sees me, He sees the Blood of the Lamb. ***** The Reply:***

Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

Dear friends,

Our God led to CAF for a very good reason. He wants you to know THE TRUTH, and your current understanding is neither biblical, nor is it even logical. PLEASE read on.

I’m going to list a series of Bible passages that disagree with your present understanding.

Do yourself a huge favor and look them up. It is what God would want you to do.

Jn. 3:5, Jn. 3:36, 2 Tim. 3:16, 2 Cor. 9:13, Mt. 19:16- 17, Phil. 2: 12-13, Lk. 10:16,Mt.16:19 [Speaking to St. Peter], 2 Thes.2:9-12, 1 Tim. 2: 3, 2 Cor.13:8, 2 Tim. 4: 3-5, Jn. 16:12-13, Jn. 17: speaking about the Apostles; 14-19, Jn. 14: 15,Jn.12:34 [please keep in mind the bible was the exclusive property for 1,600 years!] Thess 5: 9-11,
1 Jn. Chapter 5, Jn.20:23-24.

No doubt I can find more but here in super-abundance is Biblical evidence that your position is seriously flawed. For the sake of salvation, take the time to look these up.

*** God can be briefly described as “all, and only all good, perfectly.”***

The second issue is the lack of common-sense and logic for your position. Because God is, must be Fair and Just, in order to be “all-good,” God simply cannot, as in its impossible for God to judge everyone’s life decisions the same.

If your a “petty thief” and die with unrepented and unconfessed sins on your soul, you will still eventually get to heaven, so long as there are no Mortal sins on your soul, that are unconfessed and unrepented. [1 Jn. chapter 5]

*** If I’m a cold bloodied serial killer and die with these Mortal sins on my soul, unconfessed and unrepented, I’m going to hell. Even if I “know Jesus.” If this is “human justice” how much more fair and just must be our Lord? ***

Friend, you don’t “know Jesus if you don’t know and obey what He teaches.” Amen!

If you think I’m wrong AFTER you look up and read these Bible verses, please explain to me just how that can be?

Love and prayers,

 

[kalt]

Worship of God and Saints.

I posted this on the graven images thread, and I think it is useful here as well.

WORSHIP

Acknowledgment of another’s worth, dignity, or superior position. In religion, worship is given either to God, and then it is adoration, or to the angels and saints, and it is called veneration.

Divine worship actually includes three principal acts, namely

1. adoration (or the recognition of God’s infinite perfection),
2. prayer or the asking for divine help,
3. and sacrifice or the offering of something precious to God.

Worship as veneration also has three principal forms, whereby the

1. angels and saints are honored for their sanctity,
2. asked to intercede before the divine Majesty,
3. and imitated in their love and service of God.

 

[Soutane]

Jesus died for all sins. When I accepted Christ, my sins(past, present, future) were put under the Blood of Christ. When I sin, God will chastise me or it will show up at the Judgment Seat of Christ, if I don’t confess it. I try to confess all of my sins though. I don’t believe you can lose salvation, it is a gift of God.

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

Protestants are very fond of John 3:15 but they should read further and take John 3:36 to heart-“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

 

[sixofseven]

That was exactly what I was trying to get at. You put it much more eloquently than I could. I don’t think I would make a very good apologist…

I would just like Cody to come back and tell us what they think about what we’ve said and provide some answers to our questions.

I find this a lot, (trying not to generalise and I’m just venting some frustration, but) the non-Catholics I engage with and debate with (both here and in ‘real’ life) are very good at asking questions but don’t always come up with answers to MY questions or responses to my answers. My h2b is a prime example!

Cody, you have asked some great and humble questions and we have humbly answered them - what do you think?

I pray that the Holy Spirit is opening your eyes and heart.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Here are a few examples why Catholics know and believe that the Saints in heaven are forever praying for us, because Catholics believe God is a God of the living not the dead;

The biblical Catholic doctrine of the Communion of Saints is living proof that she was built by Jesus Christ, and that her Apostolic Belief’s begin on earth in the body of Jesus which is the Catholic Church militant united with the triumphant Catholic Church in heaven. For Catholics do not believe in a god of the dead but the One True God of the Living;

Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, **“Are you not misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God? **25 When they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but they are like the angels in heaven.
26 As for the dead being raised, ]have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob’?
27 He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled.”

Luke 20:34 Jesus said to them, “The children of this age marry and remarry;
35 but those who are deemed worthy to attain to the coming age and to the resurrection of the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage.
36 **They can no longer die, for they are like angels; and they are the children of God because they are the ones who will rise. 9 **37 That the dead will rise even Moses made known in the passage about the bush, when he called **‘Lord’ the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob;
38 and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” /**U]

Not even death can separate us from God, this follows in the biblical teaching of the communion of Saints;

Romans 8:35 What will separate us from the love of Christ? Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or the sword?
36 As it is written: “For your sake we are being slain all the day; we are looked upon as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, 9 nor future things, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, 10 nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hear is Jesus conversing with Moses and Elijah by eyewitnesses long after God had taken them. Just as all Saints and Martyrs are before the presence of God; God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Mark 9:2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John and led them up a high mountain apart by themselves. And he was transfigured before them,
3 and his clothes became dazzling white, such as no fuller on earth could bleach them.
4 Then Elijah appeared to them along with Moses, and they were conversing with Jesus.

Here Jesus promises the good thief, that “today” he will be with him in paradise;

Luke 23:39-Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us.”
40 The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, “Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation?
41 And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Revelations 14:1 Then I looked and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, 2 and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
4… They have been ransomed as the firstfruits of the human race for God and the Lamb.

Revelations 14:13 I heard a voice from heaven say, ]“Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” said the Spirit, “let them find rest from their labors, for their works accompany them.”

Revelations 21:33 I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, **“Behold, God’s dwelling is with the human race. He will dwell with them and they will be his people and God himself will always be with them (as their God).
4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain, (for) the old order has passed away.”
5 The one who sat on the throne 5 said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then he said, “Write these words down, for they are trustworthy and true.” **6 He said to me, "They are accomplished. 6 I (am) the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water.
7 The victor will inherit these gifts, and I shall be his God, and he will be my son.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont.
The Saints in heaven are always praying for us before God; Mary also is in heaven interceding for the body of Jesus Christ;

Revelations 8: 1 When he broke open the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven 2 for about half an hour.
2 And I saw that the seven angels who stood before God were given seven trumpets.
3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, 3 holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.
4 The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.

Revelations 11: 19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.
12: 1 A great sign appeared in the sky,** a woman 2 clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.**

There is only one body of Christ;

Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise.

Ephesians 4:44 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
8 Therefore, it says: “He ascended 3 on high and took prisoners captive; he gave gifts to men.”

Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking 14 in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,
25 of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God,
26 the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones,

Romans 8: 16 **The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, **17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

Here we have the promise of being partakers of Jesus divine nature;

2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has bestowed on us everything that makes for life and devotion, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and power.
4 Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire.

John 15:1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower.
2 He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes 3 so that it bears more fruit.
3 You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.
4** Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.**