Humility and Insecurity

[Lost_Wanderer]

Okay, I’ve noticed a lot of talk on these parts about the virtue of humility.
Question: What about those who suffer from some sort of chronic insecurity?

Now I’m aware that one sign of a person is insecure is actually arrogance, pride, vanity, and that they constantly need to brag, blahblahblah…

However, what about those who are the complete opposite?
Instead of bragging, they go brooding.
Instead of vanity, they have self-loathing.
Instead of acting out of pride, they don’t act out of fear.

Instead of the reckless optimism of megalomaniacs, they have the bitter pessimism of emos.

Whilst others listen to I Feel Good they listen to Boulevard of Broken Dreams.

Is humility really advisable to such people, who have little to zero pride in themselves? What good is it? Won’t that just give them another excuse to look down on themselves and never amount to anything? I mean, I always hear the phrase “love others as you love yourself” yet how will that work for those who despise themselves?

Now let’s look at the other side of the table. Is it then so bad for them to have something to take pride in? To be happy about themselves? Is it so bad for them to seek proof of their self-worth? (Be it via recognition of their works/talent, wanting praise). Do such people still need often be humbled just as much as the arrogant or is that actually pushing them further to the brink of despair?

I just can’t help asking since people’s hatred of pride seems to stem from their bad impressions of bigheads and don’t seem to consider those who might actually need some pride to keep going.

P.S.

In case anyone asks, yes I actually am a member of that self-loathing crowd.

 

[Jesness]

It’s interesting that you bring this up, because I suffer from this kind of self-loathing. However, this too is pride. Pride is an over-exagerated sense of self. It can manifest as either bragging OR self loathing, but the key word in that sentence is “SELF.” Basically, you’re more concerend with, ‘how unworthy YOU are,’ or ‘how little YOU can do, or contribute,’ or how, ‘no one likes YOU.’ Such self-indulgence runs contrary to faith I think. How can you be concerned about what God wants if you can’t stop thinking about yourself (good or bad) for five mintues?

For me personally, this is always a struggle, we all have our crosses to bare and this one is mine, however it gets a heck of a lot lighter when Instead of saying ‘I suck’ I say ‘Jesus has made me worthy.’

Some of the best advice I heard on humility was this: “Humility doesn’t think less of itself, it thinks of itself less.”

Hope this is helpful.

 

[nickybr38]

I agree with Jessness on this one.

I was one of those self-loathing people as well but in the past six months I’ve learned a lot about being humble and being humble isn’t self-loathing.

Being humble is realizing there is someone far greater whom I should submit myself to, body and soul… Being humble is realizing I do not have all the answers and being willing to let others guide me and teach me. Being humble is being trusting.

I think, perhaps, you don’t understand pride and humbleness.

I don’t think anyone ever needs pride in themselves, they do need trust in God though. That’s just my opinion.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

It’s interesting that you bring this up, bec:ause I suffer from this kind of self-loathing. However, this too is pride. Pride is an over-exagerated sense of self. It can manifest as either bragging OR self loathing, but the key word in that sentence is “SELF.” Basically, you’re more concerend with, ‘how unworthy YOU are,’ or ‘how little YOU can do, or contribute,’ or how, ‘no one likes YOU.’ Such self-indulgence runs contrary to faith I think. How can you be concerned about what God wants if you can’t stop thinking about yourself (good or bad) for five mintues?

Its true that you are focusing on yourself whether you hate yourself or love yourself. However, remember that I mentioned the commandment of Leviticus 19:18

Take no revenge and cherish no grudge against your fellow countrymen. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

If a person’s love for oneself is the same as the person’s love for others. How can people who don’t love themselves share that which they don’t have? At least someone who brags shows he/she has something that could possibly be shared. They see a value (albeit perhaps too much value) that can be distributed. People who see no value in themselves? They can’t see what they can share (if they may even have something to share at all).

For me personally, this is always a struggle, we all have our crosses to bare and this one is mine, however it gets a heck of a lot lighter when Instead of saying ‘I suck’ I say ‘Jesus has made me worthy.’

Aha, but when you make such a claim, what’s to stop a voice (be it from within or from without) from asking snidely, “Prove it!” hm?

Will you ignore that demand by defying reason and opting for blind faith?
Will you start becoming a people pleaser to satisfy this constant nagging for proof?

Or is it possible to be somewhere in the middle, affirming one’s own value at the appropriate times but not to the point of obsession?

 

[PAboy57]

Dear Lost,

I think it is important that you have a good feeling about yourself. There is nothing wrong with giving yourself a pat on the back for a job well done. I call that encouragement and that helps you to move on and tackle other objectives. It also give you something inside to pass on to others in need.

As long as we remember that God is with us and helping us we hopefully will be able to keep things in perspective. When you pat yourself also say a prayer of thanks to God for helping with this achievement. As humans it is necessary to feel good about ourselves so we have something to give to others. If you are down and hurting all the time it is so hard to pick yourself up and help somebody else.

Perspective is the key to most things. And we all know that we can do nothing without God. So pick yourself up by those bootstraps and work on changing those negative feelings. When I’m down I turn to our Blessed Mother and pray to her as her child and ask her to help me find my way. I love the Rosary and find it most powerful and do my best to say it everyday and it helps me keep a balanced perspective on things. Not to mention getting to talk with the Mother of God.

Good luck and God Bless.

 

[Edward_H]

I may not have it right but a fundamental truth that ties all these things together nicely is
our “divine filiation”…the fact that God is truly our Father, the most tender hearted father we can imagine. He is our real Father…more real than our human father…and we are his sons and daughters…and He loves us even more than our human father and mother. This is our gift from God, our divine filiation…and it handles so well these issues of insecurity, humility, confidence, and pride.

So both our humility and our self esteem/confidence come together in balance from this concept of divine filiation. And our joy too.

It’s a beautiful / balanced mix. Our security comes from God…[who can be afraid with a Father like God] and our humility comes from this knowledge that we are His children, un-deserving children of God, all comes elegantly together in our familial relation with God.

Now God has all this figured out and designed us this way.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I think it is important that you have a good feeling about yourself. There is nothing wrong with giving yourself a pat on the back for a job well done. I call that encouragement and that helps you to move on and tackle other objectives. It also give you something inside to pass on to others in need.

Precisely.

As long as we remember that God is with us and helping us we hopefully will be able to keep things in perspective. When you pat yourself also say a prayer of thanks to God for helping with this achievement. As humans it is necessary to feel good about ourselves so we have something to give to others. If you are down and hurting all the time it is so hard to pick yourself up and help somebody else.

I have no problems with this either. The thing is, some people interpret this and go as far as to say we shouldn’t even be proud of what God has given us, that we are in no way better in having these gifts. That we should not feel good about it at all. That whatever good result had nothing to do with us and it could have happened without us. We, in a nutshell, are insignificant.

To an insecure person, that just makes it easier to sit around moping.

 

[Pug]

Are you talking about people who have nothing to share with others, or about people who have nothing important/valuable/worthwhile/exceptional enough to share with others, or about people who have nothing that they did not receive from God to share with others?

 

[fhansen]

I agree with all that’s been said. I think part of the problem, sort of trying to dissect this issue of pride, is our wanting to be all things to all people. We can never be satisfied with who we are if we can’t be at peace with the differences between us. Only God is “all in all”. And Who does pride want us to be-or subtly “accuse” us of not being??

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Are you talking about people who have nothing to share with others, or about people who have nothing important/valuable/worthwhile/exceptional enough to share with others, or about people who have nothing that they did not receive from God to share with others?

I’m talking about people who can’t see to find anything valuable in of themselves to share and whether or not lecturing them about “humility” will just make it worse.

I agree with all that’s been said. I think part of the problem, sort of trying to dissect this issue of pride, is our wanting to be all things to all people. We can never be satisfied with who we are if we can’t be at peace with the differences between us. Only God is “all in all”. And Who does pride want us to be-or subtly “accuse” us of not being??

Interesting reflection. So it all boils down as to who you wanna please first and foremost?

 

[fhansen]

I’m talking about people who can’t see to find anything valuable in of themselves to share and whether or not lecturing them about “humility” will just make it worse.

Interesting reflection. So it all boils down as to who you wanna please first and foremost?

I think that’s a good way to put it. If my focus is on myself and the world around me with it’s variety of values-which it often is-then my peace fades. When I think of others as being totally right in the way they are or live their lives-while I’m totally wrong-then my focus is on the world and it’s values. When I turn to God as the real source of righteousness, then I’m no longer in competition with others-and seeing myself as either better or worse-I can view us all as “wrong”, in fact, relative to the only One who is ultimately right.

 

[Jesness]

Its true that you are focusing on yourself whether you hate yourself or love yourself. However, remember that I mentioned the commandment of Leviticus 19:18

If a person’s love for oneself is the same as the person’s love for others. How can people who don’t love themselves share that which they don’t have? At least someone who brags shows he/she has something that could possibly be shared. They see a value (albeit perhaps too much value) that can be distributed. People who see no value in themselves? They can’t see what they can share (if they may even have something to share at all).

The Dalai Lama made a statment about self-love which I highly agree with and highly agrees with my previous statements about humility in general. If love is a strong desire for the happiness and well being of others, then you would be hard pressed to find someone who isn’t self-loving. It is a very profound sense of self-love in which in individual seeks their own happiness. If you look at suicidal people, they don’t commite suicide because they hate themselves and wish to die, they commit suicide because they can’t think of any other way to stop the pain they’re in. A desire to not be in pain points to self love verses self hatred. If you love yourself enough to desire not to be in pain, then to love your neighbor as yourself would be to desire for your neighbor not to be in pain, and would take steps to alieviate that pain.

The idea of humility is that you seek God’s happiness above your own. Jesus said that you must hate your own body and life otherwise you couldn’t fallow him. Jesus proved his hatred for His body when he went to the cross. He didn’t count either his body or his life dear to Him, only God’s will.

Aha, but when you make such a claim, what’s to stop a voice (be it from within or from without) from asking snidely, “Prove it!” hm?

Will you ignore that demand by defying reason and opting for blind faith?
Will you start becoming a people pleaser to satisfy this constant nagging for proof?

Or is it possible to be somewhere in the middle, affirming one’s own value at the appropriate times but not to the point of obsession?

I am not subject to anyone except God. I don’t have to prove anything to anyone. (outside.) I try to please people because God has been extrodinarily kind to me; the only way I can think to repay that kindness is to do what He says, and He says to love my neighbor as He has loved me. So I try to pass it on.

As for voices inside; I shut them up with the scriptures. (without giving them the ‘proof’ they’re demanding.) God has made me worthy by the blood of Jesus. If God’s word is true, then anything else I hear must be a lie. “Let God be free and every man a liar.” And if the voice inside is lying, why should I do what it says? Even so, let me not try to sound like I’m spiritually ‘smart’ as this is a lesson that I learned only recently, after much aggrivation and tears, God’s love won out. So yeah, to God be the glory, for the most blessed peace.

 

[Monica4316]

It’s interesting that you bring this up, because I suffer from this kind of self-loathing. However, this too is pride. Pride is an over-exagerated sense of self. It can manifest as either bragging OR self loathing, but the key word in that sentence is “SELF.” Basically, you’re more concerend with, ‘how unworthy YOU are,’ or ‘how little YOU can do, or contribute,’ or how, ‘no one likes YOU.’ Such self-indulgence runs contrary to faith I think. How can you be concerned about what God wants if you can’t stop thinking about yourself (good or bad) for five mintues?

For me personally, this is always a struggle, we all have our crosses to bare and this one is mine, however it gets a heck of a lot lighter when Instead of saying ‘I suck’ I say ‘Jesus has made me worthy.’

Some of the best advice I heard on humility was this: “Humility doesn’t think less of itself, it thinks of itself less.”

Hope this is helpful.

I agree with this…

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

If you love yourself enough to desire not to be in pain, then to love your neighbor as yourself would be to desire for your neighbor not to be in pain, and would take steps to alieviate that pain.

Okay, can you explain to me how you can say this (points up) but then leap on to this? (points down) It’s not making sense, I can’t find any logic that joins these two together.

The idea of humility is that you seek God’s happiness above your own. Jesus said that you must hate your own body and life otherwise you couldn’t fallow him. Jesus proved his hatred for His body when he went to the cross. He didn’t count either his body or his life dear to Him, only God’s will.

If you love yourself and thus become capable of sharing that love with others, then how can you reconcile it with the hatred of oneself that you believe Christ demands?

Or could it be that instead of a sort of a demeaning hatred of one’s “own body and life”, he was referring to priority? That it’s God’s righteous will that should take precedence above all our personal pleasures and trivial fancies and thus, not really relevant to the discussion?

I am not subject to anyone except God. I don’t have to prove anything to anyone. (outside.) I try to please people because God has been extrodinarily kind to me; the only way I can think to repay that kindness is to do what He says, and He says to love my neighbor as He has loved me. So I try to pass it on.

As for voices inside; I shut them up with the scriptures. (without giving them the ‘proof’ they’re demanding.) God has made me worthy by the blood of Jesus. If God’s word is true, then anything else I hear must be a lie. “Let God be free and every man a liar.” And if the voice inside is lying, why should I do what it says? Even so, let me not try to sound like I’m spiritually ‘smart’ as this is a lesson that I learned only recently, after much aggrivation and tears, God’s love won out. So yeah, to God be the glory, for the most blessed peace.

So basically your answer is faith and I’m afraid I have to say its quite blind (especially when you are so quick to say the truth in Scripture, regardless of how veiled it can be, makes it a qualified substitute for a logical answer).

Herein lies the problem, what good is scripture in boosting self-confidence when you use it without the faculty of human reasoning? If you do not glean the insight and make it relevant to the discussion with your inner criticizer, then they are just mere words. You give me the impression of someone who relies on feelings of faith and I’m afraid such feelings are unreliable (much less to someone like me) since people are susceptible to periods of spiritual dryness devoid of that feeling.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I think that’s a good way to put it. If my focus is on myself and the world around me with it’s variety of values-which it often is-then my peace fades. When I think of others as being totally right in the way they are or live their lives-while I’m totally wrong-then my focus is on the world and it’s values. When I turn to God as the real source of righteousness, then I’m no longer in competition with others-and seeing myself as either better or worse-I can view us all as “wrong”, in fact, relative to the only One who is ultimately right.

I see. Well I agree that in the end, we are all ultimately equal. However, this brings to mind another question.

What if instead of the overall picture, we simply seek to compare one aspect of ourselves?

For instance, suppose I’m a swordsman and I am renowned by my mastery of the blade. I am feared throughout the land and have met very few that I’ve considered equal. On the other hand, my sister’s a famous poet whose songs and sonnets have confounded and enthralled all manner of audiences.

Now if we were to compare with each other in one aspect such as swordplay, I would of course be superior. On the other hand, in another aspect, such as poetry I would lose miserably to my sister. However, that doesn’t make me any less of a skilled swordsman.

Would it be wrong then to take pride in that which you can do while humbly acknowledging that which you can’t?

It just seems I’ve run into a lot of people (both religious and non) who say I’m being arrogant even though I have proven myself in my right to boast. That humility means making yourself a doormat for them (especially the non-religious ones).

 

[Pug]

I’m talking about people who can’t see to find anything valuable in of themselves to share and whether or not lecturing them about “humility” will just make it worse.

Lecturing them probably will not help if they cannot see well enough at the time. They could latch on to the lecture as evidence of more failure on their part. I would have, anyway, before I better comprehended gratitude and the innate value of each person.

It is true that it can help a person to receive the insight that pride can stir up certain feelings, but that insight is not helpful if it cannot be seen. Nor is it particularly useful if other factors are missing that would help the insight grow or help the person act on the idea.

 

[Jesness]

Okay, can you explain to me how you can say this (points up) but then leap on to this? (points down) It’s not making sense, I can’t find any logic that joins these two together.

The logic is that you cannot be self-loathing without being ecceedingly prideful because all you care about is your own self, or happiness. We’re supposed to be fallowing Jesus’ example. If Jesus had only cared about His happiness, instead of saying “Not as I will, but as you will,” He would have said “Sorry dad, I don’t want to do this cause it’s really inconvenient…” That’s basically what we say when we’re self-loathing. “I know you said I am a new creation, but I don’t really buy that…” I can’t think of anything more prideful than calling God a liar or telling Him he’s wrong.

Or could it be that instead of a sort of a demeaning hatred of one’s “own body and life”, he was referring to priority? That it’s God’s righteous will that should take precedence above all our personal pleasures and trivial fancies and thus, not really relevant to the discussion?

I am sorry if I wasn’t clear, but yes this is what I meant. The love that Jesus had for either his own self or for others may as well have been bitter hatred when compaired to the love He had for God.

So basically your answer is faith and I’m afraid I have to say its quite blind (especially when you are so quick to say the truth in Scripture, regardless of how veiled it can be, makes it a qualified substitute for a logical answer).

For shutting up imaginary voices that tell me to ‘prove myself?’ I think listening to those voices would me more illogical- actually that would be downright insane…

Also, I have tested some of the scriptures and that gives me confidence towards the ones I haven’t tested. That is my basis for calling them ‘true.’ That and I don’t think it’s wise to call God a liar, and if I believe that is the word of God, why wouldn’t I believe it as being true?

Plus as I gain confidence to put more scriptures into practice. Since doing so, my life- especially my home life and relationships with people- have gotten a LOT easier.

Also, they’re not as veiled as you think. We spend so much time looking for hidden meanings in the scriptures that we overlook the obvious written in plain English. “Love each other as I have loved you.” That’s pretty clear. How did Jesus love us? By serving others; which is hight of humility.

He was God, yet he didn’t think he was too good to wash the feet of his deciples.

Herein lies the problem, what good is scripture in boosting self-confidence when you use it without the faculty of human reasoning? If you do not glean the insight and make it relevant to the discussion with your inner criticizer, then they are just mere words. You give me the impression of someone who relies on feelings of faith and I’m afraid such feelings are unreliable (much less to someone like me) since people are susceptible to periods of spiritual dryness devoid of that feeling.

I don’t use the scripture to boost my self confidence, I use them to boost my faith in God. However, it is a nice little windfall that the more confidence I gain in God the less I worry about how much I suck; because He makes up for what I lack.

Also, I don’t argue with the inner criticizer, because it shuts up when it can’t come up with answer for ‘God has made me worthy.’ It’s not my fault if it’s not smart enough to refute God’s word.

(That is based off of the scriptures, but I can’t think of the actual verse that I’m paraphrasing off the top of my head.)

And I am currently going through a period of dryness. (Actually some of the worst dryness I have ever experienced, it literally hurts to trust sometimes)

 

[EmeraldWings]

humility is the virtue of truth, and pride is being a liar with yourself,
however, to boast about something that is true like you have achieved it by yourself, that is where things really go wrong,
although it may be true, we should not give credit to ourselves, all things come from God, and we must give all glory to Him,
of course it is no sin to feel good about yourself, but to glory in yourself is vain(otherwise known as, vainglory)

we can still feel good about ourselves, our talents and skills and whatnot, while still giving thanks and glory to God, and in doing so, as long as you love God, you will feel even better,

there is nothing wrong with feeling good about yourself, but there is something wrong with putting yourself above others, and also disregarding your complete dependence on God,

not all sins are pride, but pride does lead to many sins, such as presumption, ambition, vainglory, boasting, hypocrisy, rivalry, and disobedience,

so basically, if it’s true then it’s not pride, and yet if you take glory in it then it is vain glory,

humility keeps things in order, it does not seek personal greatness, and does not attribute what you have as coming from yourself,

if we have humility, then we have peace of mind in all things, because those who do not lie have nothing to fear.

it’s all very simply really, you can break it down to three things - don’t consider yourself better than you are, don’t consider yourself worse than you are, and always give glory to God in all things…of course it’s easier said than done, but it’s always good to simplify things that way, sometimes we think to much on something and complicate it to the point that it becomes a mystery.

other than that, i wanted to show you a book, after reading your first post i thought how this would really answer alot of your questions - gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=13046951

ok well, hope this helps, take care.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

The logic is that you cannot be self-loathing without being ecceedingly prideful because all you care about is your own self, or happiness.

I can see how this can apply to people who brag out of insecurity but not to those who are too down in the dumps to care about either their own or anyone else’s happiness.

“I know you said I am a new creation, but I don’t really buy that…” I can’t think of anything more prideful than calling God a liar or telling Him he’s wrong.

Just because I’ve had moments in my life where I considered myself a mistake, didn’t mean I blamed God or said He was a liar. Its like how we justify the imperfections of man, who is said to be made in God’s image and likeness, by the fact that we are corrupted by original sin. The perfection has been lost by our fallen nature.

I am sorry if I wasn’t clear, but yes this is what I meant. The love that Jesus had for either his own self or for others may as well have been bitter hatred when compaired to the love He had for God.

Again, you’re just being more confusing. If we are commanded to love our neighbor as we love ourselves, how can we follow such a commandment when you’re demeaning the love for oneself as “bitter hatred”?

For shutting up imaginary voices that tell me to ‘prove myself?’ I think listening to those voices would me more illogical- actually that would be downright insane…

Also, I have tested some of the scriptures and that gives me confidence towards the ones I haven’t tested. That is my basis for calling them ‘true.’ That and I don’t think it’s wise to call God a liar, and if I believe that is the word of God, why wouldn’t I believe it as being true?

Really? The way I see it, those “imaginary voices” might have their sources in real things (usually people, poor results, mistakes you’ve deeply regretted, even embarrassing memories). How do you reconcile your mere faith against empirical evidence of your fallibility? How do you just stick to quoting Bible verses and not actually doing something to remedy and silence these real sources (even just once)?

One thing’s for sure, giving someone an excuse to think even lesser of himself/herself isn’t going to help.

I don’t use the scripture to boost my self confidence, I use them to boost my faith in God. However, it is a nice little windfall that the more confidence I gain in God the less I worry about how much I suck; because He makes up for what I lack.

Also, I don’t argue with the inner criticizer, because it shuts up when it can’t come up with answer for ‘God has made me worthy.’ It’s not my fault if it’s not smart enough to refute God’s word.

And I am currently going through a period of dryness. (Actually some of the worst dryness I have ever experienced, it literally hurts to trust sometimes)

Perhaps you may not be as dry as you think you are (you still manage to retain the “feeling” of faith in something you can’t prove) or perhaps the evidence against you isn’t as strong as the one that has been vigorously compiled against me to the point that I have very little about myself to be happy about.

It isn’t really about feeling too good about yourself to do something for your fellow man (as with your example of Jesus washing his apostle’s feet). It’s about feeling happy with yourself and not being plagued by doubt in every thing you do, to go and strive to do great things without the constant fear of failure shadowing your every thought.

 

[Jesness]

I can see how this can apply to people who brag out of insecurity but not to those who are too down in the dumps to care about either their own or anyone else’s happiness.

If they didn’t care about their own happiness, they wouldn’t be down. What is being down but being unhappy?

Just because I’ve had moments in my life where I considered myself a mistake, didn’t mean I blamed God or said He was a liar. Its like how we justify the imperfections of man, who is said to be made in God’s image and likeness, by the fact that we are corrupted by original sin. The perfection has been lost by our fallen nature.

The very act of considering yourself a mistake is to belittle God’s work. Does God make mistakes? If you believe you were made by God, how can you also believe you were a mistake at the same time? If you don’t believe you were made by God, then how did you get here? The very act of considering yourself a mistake when the scriptures say otherwise is testiment to the lack of faith which is really the only thing God is looking for. Even loving your neighbor must be done in faith.

Please understand, I’m not trying to accuse you of anything, or put you down, but if you don’t believe the scriptures are true, then why are you a Christian? If you can’t believe that ‘you’re fearfully and wonderfully made’ then why should you believe ‘For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son?’

Again, you’re just being more confusing. If we are commanded to love our neighbor as we love ourselves, how can we follow such a commandment when you’re demeaning the love for oneself as “bitter hatred”?

^^;; Oy, not making myself clear, but yes, what you basically said about priorities.

And I would like to respond to the rest of that post, but I ran out of time. A little later hopefully… ^^;