Humility and Parish Life

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I’m sure I’ll get drummed up in short order for this one, especially by someone more knowledgeable than I. Somewhere between Canon Law, the Missal, and My Understanding there’s going to be a disconnect. The thing is, I’ve seen something, and it’s bothering me.

Everyone here on CAF surely knows that the church arranges herself into provinces, then dioceses, then parishes, and that there’s a hierarchy that follows, but that parishes have defined borders within themselves, like the counties within each province/state that make up a country. Traditionally, people used to stay within their parishes as far as Church attendance, with a few exceptions; my great-grandparents (my mother’s father’s parents) are devout Catholics from the old country, who, for all intents and purposes, worshipped within their parish, but had the funerary rites for my Great Grandfather said at the Cathedral, and buried him within the city, rather than up country, where thy live. But, for the most part, the practice was to be within your parish; it was your secular neighbourhood as well as your spiritual community.

The impression that I got was that, in those days, everyone knew everybody, and if you were new to your parish, you got to know your neighbours very quickly through social functions under the auspices of that parish. Nowadays, if I can say that (these being the only days I know), the trend seems to go something like this, at least with what I’ve seen here.

“This particular aspect of the Mass isn’t reverently done enough (an altar server fidgeted, female EMHC, priest sneezed at the pulpit) for my taste, so I am going to find a new church to go to.”

Now, I’m a big fan of freedom of choice, and I know this. I also have a tendency to judge, as evidenced by the fact I’m writing this out at all. Having said all that, though, it seems counter to Humility, a Christian virtue we could all use a little more of, to pass judgement on the reverence of a parish and then abandon it for another. In a time when Parishes are closing left right and centre and attendance of the Mass is at a low, parishes need our support more than ever, and in more ways than simply materially.

Saint Francis of Assisi told us to, “Preach always, and when necessary, use words.” If your parish isn’t reverent enough, wouldn’t it be better to attend it in full reverence, without pretence? Your devotion to the Faith will be witness enough to the others around you. It’s not like the priest is running the back of the shop at your local McDonalds and burned your fries. The Church is the Body of Christ, and he deserves better than infighting and fracturing.

Communities need the support of the people who live in them as much as they need the support of God. Think of your neighbourhood as a tiny maple sapling, and the Church as a great, ancient maple that has stood for generations. As much as our sapling needs the sun of God’s Grace, it needs the water of our Good Works, and to take root in the soil of good, gracious hearts.

Acer, Arcerpouri. As the maple, so the sapling.
 
Well said! :blessyou:

Something certainly does seem wrong about running to a new parish whenever something doesn’t suit one’s taste.
 
IMHO, I think you’re quite right. Unless there’s a good reason to go to a different church (such as being baptized there) I think one ought to stick to one’s own parish. I think this applies similarly when people “prefer” mass in the 1962 missal - abandoning a parish for reasons of liturgical preference seems a little churlish (of course, I’m not defending liturgical abuses - but if they are a serious problem then the faithful should raise it as an issue rather than simply deserting because then it will never improve).👍
 
I’m sure I’ll get drummed up in short order for this one, especially by someone more knowledgeable than I. Somewhere between Canon Law, the Missal, and My Understanding there’s going to be a disconnect. The thing is, I’ve seen something, and it’s bothering me.

Everyone here on CAF surely knows that the church arranges herself into provinces, then dioceses, then parishes, and that there’s a hierarchy that follows, but that parishes have defined borders within themselves, like the counties within each province/state that make up a country. Traditionally, people used to stay within their parishes as far as Church attendance, with a few exceptions; my great-grandparents (my mother’s father’s parents) are devout Catholics from the old country, who, for all intents and purposes, worshipped within their parish, but had the funerary rites for my Great Grandfather said at the Cathedral, and buried him within the city, rather than up country, where thy live. But, for the most part, the practice was to be within your parish; it was your secular neighbourhood as well as your spiritual community.

The impression that I got was that, in those days, everyone knew everybody, and if you were new to your parish, you got to know your neighbours very quickly through social functions under the auspices of that parish. Nowadays, if I can say that (these being the only days I know), the trend seems to go something like this, at least with what I’ve seen here.

“This particular aspect of the Mass isn’t reverently done enough (an altar server fidgeted, female EMHC, priest sneezed at the pulpit) for my taste, so I am going to find a new church to go to.”

Now, I’m a big fan of freedom of choice, and I know this. I also have a tendency to judge, as evidenced by the fact I’m writing this out at all. Having said all that, though, it seems counter to Humility, a Christian virtue we could all use a little more of, to pass judgement on the reverence of a parish and then abandon it for another. In a time when Parishes are closing left right and centre and attendance of the Mass is at a low, parishes need our support more than ever, and in more ways than simply materially.

Saint Francis of Assisi told us to, “Preach always, and when necessary, use words.” If your parish isn’t reverent enough, wouldn’t it be better to attend it in full reverence, without pretence? Your devotion to the Faith will be witness enough to the others around you. It’s not like the priest is running the back of the shop at your local McDonalds and burned your fries. The Church is the Body of Christ, and he deserves better than infighting and fracturing.

Communities need the support of the people who live in them as much as they need the support of God. Think of your neighbourhood as a tiny maple sapling, and the Church as a great, ancient maple that has stood for generations. As much as our sapling needs the sun of God’s Grace, it needs the water of our Good Works, and to take root in the soil of good, gracious hearts.

Acer, Arcerpouri. As the maple, so the sapling.
Exactly. I am moving to a new area and the parish that I am registering has mostly older people at it. I was asked if I would be more comfortable at another parish closer with younger people because I have been involved in youth ministry. I said no, this is my parish that is within my boundaries. As it is there was also a new pastor. Apparently he would like to see some youth ministry programs/young adult from our conversation. So maybe that is a Holy Spirit thing.
 
IMHO, I think you’re quite right. Unless there’s a good reason to go to a different church (such as being baptized there) I think one ought to stick to one’s own parish. I think this applies similarly when people “prefer” mass in the 1962 missal - abandoning a parish for reasons of liturgical preference seems a little churlish
What`s churlish about preferring, and attending, the TLM? Are you saying that only those who live within the boundaries of the parish where a TLM community is located should attend it? How long would the community last? Was Pope Benedict wrong to loosen up restrictions on the TLM?
Would you like to see the TLM almost killed off, as it was earlier on?
(of course, I’m not defending liturgical abuses - but if they are a serious problem then the faithful should raise it as an issue rather than simply deserting because then it will never improve).👍
Have you ever tried to point out to a priest that some of his activities arent quite orthodox? If a priest is determined, he wont change for anyone.
If our previous PP hadnt left, id still be a member of this local parish, but, sadly, the current PP was (is) a new broom, and wouldnt listen to complaints. We have a right to reverence, rather than "liturgical dancing", and decent sermons which spiritually enrich us. If that means going elsewhere: so be it! Some of us cant just “offer it up”.

The posts above are a bit idealistic/simplistic.
 
What`s churlish about preferring, and attending, the TLM? Are you saying that only those who live within the boundaries of the parish where a TLM community is located should attend it? How long would the community last? Was Pope Benedict wrong to loosen up restrictions on the TLM?
Would you like to see the TLM almost killed off, as it was earlier on?
The extraordinary form is obviously a bit of a hot topic, and a somewhat different matter. If you honestly feel that the EF is more suited than the OF, by all means, go to another parish that offers the EF… or lobby your Pastor to offer a mass in the EF! On the other hand, I have noticed a certain trend of people seeing the EF as intrinsically better than the OF, for everyone. In those cases, I think it would be appropriate to remind everyone that the Holy Father has continued to allow, and in fact encourage, the OF. The Ordinary Form has a certain beauty in its comprehensibility.

Having said that, it’s a free country, and I’m certainly not saying people can’t go out of their way to see the Extraordinary Form… as long as it comes from reverence and not pretence.
Have you ever tried to point out to a priest that some of his activities arent quite orthodox? If a priest is determined, he wont change for anyone.
If our previous PP hadnt left, id still be a member of this local parish, but, sadly, the current PP was (is) a new broom, and wouldnt listen to complaints. We have a right to reverence, rather than "liturgical dancing", and decent sermons which spiritually enrich us. If that means going elsewhere: so be it! Some of us cant just “offer it up”.
Easy. Go over his head to the Bishop. A parish with a heterodox pastor needs, more than ever, its orthodox lay parishioners.
The posts above are a bit idealistic/simplistic.
Idealism and simplicity aren’t always the same. Neither are either vices.
 
What`s churlish about preferring, and attending, the TLM? Are you saying that only those who live within the boundaries of the parish where a TLM community is located should attend it? How long would the community last? Was Pope Benedict wrong to loosen up restrictions on the TLM?
Would you like to see the TLM almost killed off, as it was earlier on?

Have you ever tried to point out to a priest that some of his activities arent quite orthodox? If a priest is determined, he wont change for anyone.
If our previous PP hadnt left, id still be a member of this local parish, but, sadly, the current PP was (is) a new broom, and wouldnt listen to complaints. We have a right to reverence, rather than "liturgical dancing", and decent sermons which spiritually enrich us. If that means going elsewhere: so be it! Some of us cant just “offer it up”.

The posts above are a bit idealistic/simplistic.
Hi Fink,

I just changed my parish this week. I spent 5 years trying to tolerate the abuses, snubs, etc. of my former parish. It got to the point where I had to leave. I found another parish that I truly love and although it’s harder to get to, it’s the right move for me.👍
 
Hi Fink,

I just changed my parish this week. I spent 5 years trying to tolerate the abuses, snubs, etc. of my former parish. It got to the point where I had to leave. I found another parish that I truly love and although it’s harder to get to, it’s the right move for me.👍
Did you report the abuses to the Bishop?
 
You make very good points. At one time, parish “boundaries” were considered as such…now it seems it’s “whatever floats your boat”, so to speak.

I have a choice of five parishes within (easy) driving distance, three of which have a OF offered by the book (GIRM). My wife and I chose the closest parish, where the OF is celebrated illicitly by the Pastor each Sunday and weekday. We have chosen to remain here to teach me humility (I am an arrogant rabid reader and believer in the GIRM), but particularly because this is “our” parish; we live within its boundaries.

Our hope, and our future efforts, will be directed towards implementation of the “reform of the reform”, and the eventual proper celebration of the OF at “our” parish. I think it is our duty to see this through.

Thanks for the many “humble” opinions.
 
I’m sure I’ll get drummed up in short order for this one, especially by someone more knowledgeable than I. Somewhere between Canon Law, the Missal, and My Understanding there’s going to be a disconnect. The thing is, I’ve seen something, and it’s bothering me.

Everyone here on CAF surely knows that the church arranges herself into provinces, then dioceses, then parishes, and that there’s a hierarchy that follows, but that parishes have defined borders within themselves, like the counties within each province/state that make up a country. Traditionally, people used to stay within their parishes as far as Church attendance, with a few exceptions; my great-grandparents (my mother’s father’s parents) are devout Catholics from the old country, who, for all intents and purposes, worshipped within their parish, but had the funerary rites for my Great Grandfather said at the Cathedral, and buried him within the city, rather than up country, where thy live. But, for the most part, the practice was to be within your parish; it was your secular neighbourhood as well as your spiritual community.

The impression that I got was that, in those days, everyone knew everybody, and if you were new to your parish, you got to know your neighbours very quickly through social functions under the auspices of that parish. Nowadays, if I can say that (these being the only days I know), the trend seems to go something like this, at least with what I’ve seen here.

“This particular aspect of the Mass isn’t reverently done enough (an altar server fidgeted, female EMHC, priest sneezed at the pulpit) for my taste, so I am going to find a new church to go to.”

Now, I’m a big fan of freedom of choice, and I know this. I also have a tendency to judge, as evidenced by the fact I’m writing this out at all. Having said all that, though, it seems counter to Humility, a Christian virtue we could all use a little more of, to pass judgement on the reverence of a parish and then abandon it for another. In a time when Parishes are closing left right and centre and attendance of the Mass is at a low, parishes need our support more than ever, and in more ways than simply materially.

Saint Francis of Assisi told us to, “Preach always, and when necessary, use words.” If your parish isn’t reverent enough, wouldn’t it be better to attend it in full reverence, without pretence? Your devotion to the Faith will be witness enough to the others around you. It’s not like the priest is running the back of the shop at your local McDonalds and burned your fries. The Church is the Body of Christ, and he deserves better than infighting and fracturing.

Communities need the support of the people who live in them as much as they need the support of God. Think of your neighbourhood as a tiny maple sapling, and the Church as a great, ancient maple that has stood for generations. As much as our sapling needs the sun of God’s Grace, it needs the water of our Good Works, and to take root in the soil of good, gracious hearts.

Acer, Arcerpouri. As the maple, so the sapling.
you switched from your original opinion to tell us why your looking for a new church.You can feel free to look for a new Church which is more to your liking.why don’t you like freedom of choice?You like less freedom?You not judging.Its perfectly within your rights to not like how people behave.it has nothing to do with humility.Its always good to overlook another"s faults but your not abandoning the Church.If you leave one parish you’ll just add to the new one.You can be as reverant as you like.If you feel that people don’t like that you have to choices.Either go to a more reverant parish or stay and put up with your fellow parishioners.
 
you switched from your original opinion to tell us why your looking for a new church…
No I didn’t. I suppose I wasn’t clear. The section of my OP in quotation marks was hypothetical, albeit typical thing I encounter from time to time on CAF and elsewhere, not my personal feelings. I love my parish, all the awkwardness of being there at my age aside.
 
It got to the point where I threw my hands up. My new parish is the seat of the archbishop of my diocese. 🙂
If we find liturgical abuses to be so foul that we must leave our parish yet we do not let the episcopate know of them - instead we just go to another parish - are we part of the solution or are we part of the problem. I am not asking this question to be judgemental - I am asking this question to spark discussion.
 
Part of it was not wanting to bother the bishop with my complaints because I am certain he’s got a stack of them.
I can only say the situation was overwhelming enough for me to change parishes.
 
Part of it was not wanting to bother the bishop with my complaints because I am certain he’s got a stack of them.
I can only say the situation was overwhelming enough for me to change parishes.
How certain are you? I am probing here because sometimes the situations in these parishes are almost like a train wreck where everyone assumes someone else did it? If you are certain and you know that everything was done than you know. If not - then maybe you need to look at it - being at the parish that is the seat of the diocese puts you in a wonderful position to talk to someone about it
 
Joanofarc,

You have a point. I should have said I’m “pretty sure” because mention was made previously of people from my former parish writing to the bishop complaining. Also, a lot of the people don’t mind the way things are there.
Right now I’m practically on cloud nine with my new parish. :love:
 
Joanofarc,

You have a point. I should have said I’m “pretty sure” because mention was made previously of people from my former parish writing to the bishop complaining. Also, a lot of the people don’t mind the way things are there.
Right now I’m practically on cloud nine with my new parish. :love:
One thing I found myself wondering was how my own actions or inactions in a particular situation I was in added to the sin of scandal:
II. RESPECT FOR THE DIGNITY OF PERSONS
Respect for the souls of others: scandal
2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.
2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."86 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.87
2286 Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.
Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to "social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible."88 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,89 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.
2287 Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!"90
In other words the ones that didn’t mind may not mind because they do not know better. Hence, if I am to be quiet am I committing a sin of omission by not saying anything. Is my happiness more important than the salvation of others or myself? These were all questions that came out of a very deep examination of conscience with a confessor - and what I did do was not what I should have done due to my situation destabilizing due to divorce and me leaving the diocese completely. One other point that I will make is that in these types of parishes it is of interest to note that the divorce rate also seems to be higher than parishes that are more orthodox. That is just based on observation although I am sure there is a study or two. So could it be that people are being hurt in more ways than one? I know how I personally was hurt and I know how I wished some of the more orthodox in our parish had been willing and able to stand up and voice their opinions. It may have not made a big difference for me but it may have helped someone else.
 
There was a “last straw” or two that finally made me decide to leave. I wasn’t silent about it either. I called it immeditately to the attention of those involved.
I enlisted the help of the monsignor I respect from my new parish. It became a matter of spiritual self-preservation. I told him everything.
It wasn’t a matter of just happiness, because I was sorrowful I had to leave the company of some people. It hurt for a while. But now, yes, I’m very happy now. This wasn’t done without discernment and I did not fail to instruct the ignorant.
I am off this thread and looking forward to my new beginning. All the best to you, and God bless and keep you.
 
No I didn’t. I suppose I wasn’t clear. The section of my OP in quotation marks was hypothetical, albeit typical thing I encounter from time to time on CAF and elsewhere, not my personal feelings. I love my parish, all the awkwardness of being there at my age aside.
Im sorry that i misunderstood what i thought you were saying.I agree with your post.
 
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