C
cheezey
Guest
depends on the other obligations, wouldn’t it?
- Status
N
NurseyJ
Guest
Ha, thanks for the laugh
You might be onto something here. I think I probably make a poor follower since there is nothing to follow. I am a poor leader because I am trying to hold the world on my shoulders without his (name removed by moderator)ut/contribution. So yeah. Agreed. Also, it’s hard to have respect when their is complete abandonment of leadership, which in my book is akin to abandonment of your family/your post.
I guess that the only thing that really irks me about this approach is that it nonetheless involves ME initiating what he needs to do and reminding him of his responsibilities rather than him taking the initiative and doing what needs to be done. Even when it comes to getting counseling (which I am looking into), it is still me doing it all, looking for a solution, trying to hold everything together once again. Can someone save me for once?
I
Irishmom2
Guest
Not sure what you mean. If one person works full time, and one part time, the one with the part time has that time they are not working to do other things that need to be done. That could be child care, housework, shopping or whatever else. I would say the same if the hours were reversed and the male worked part time instead.
N
NurseyJ
Guest
Yes I agree and am okay with doing more of the domestic/mommy/planny stuff (I have been doing it all along), I am also nursing an infant and get up with her all night. But he still essentially contributes nothing.
C
ClearWater
Guest
It sounds like it’s difficult to respect that kind of man, that will not do his part, being excessively passive in the relationship.
Would counseling be an option? It’d probably be good to exhaust all your options, leave no stone unturned, as it were, try everything.
Would counseling be an option? It’d probably be good to exhaust all your options, leave no stone unturned, as it were, try everything.
B
BillP
Guest
How demanding are you in terms of your preferences?
My wife and I ran into this problem early in our relationship. She has VERY specific preferences, she wants exactly what she wants with no substitutes or measures. With her, almost everything is either “perfect” or “unacceptable”, whereas, on most things I’m extremely flexible, with a wide range of “eh, that’s okay” between “perfection” and unacceptable.
This applies to almost everything from buying a house to which restaurant we will eat in to home improvements. We’ve come to the compromise that if she wants something, she’ll do a bit of advance work to establish the range of acceptable options (to her), I’ll weigh in with my preferences, she’ll decide.
For example, my wife got tired of our worn carpets (which, honestly I had never noticed were worn, although once she pointed it out, I recognized). We talked about hardwood floors or new carpets. We could easily afford either, and either one is fine with me, I really don’t care. She chose hardwood floors. When went to choose hardwoods, out of the 3 dozen samples we looked at, there were two that were too dark for me, and one that was too light, ANY of the other 33 would have been fine with me. It took her two hours to pick a color.
My point is that if you have strong preferences, you should probably be the lead for those preferences.
Anyway
My wife and I ran into this problem early in our relationship. She has VERY specific preferences, she wants exactly what she wants with no substitutes or measures. With her, almost everything is either “perfect” or “unacceptable”, whereas, on most things I’m extremely flexible, with a wide range of “eh, that’s okay” between “perfection” and unacceptable.
This applies to almost everything from buying a house to which restaurant we will eat in to home improvements. We’ve come to the compromise that if she wants something, she’ll do a bit of advance work to establish the range of acceptable options (to her), I’ll weigh in with my preferences, she’ll decide.
For example, my wife got tired of our worn carpets (which, honestly I had never noticed were worn, although once she pointed it out, I recognized). We talked about hardwood floors or new carpets. We could easily afford either, and either one is fine with me, I really don’t care. She chose hardwood floors. When went to choose hardwoods, out of the 3 dozen samples we looked at, there were two that were too dark for me, and one that was too light, ANY of the other 33 would have been fine with me. It took her two hours to pick a color.
My point is that if you have strong preferences, you should probably be the lead for those preferences.
Anyway
H
Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
I still find it odd the way you are portraying the man you love. I guess what I am saying is it sure looks like you think he is lazy, and worthless. And you publically make this known by telling the world online.Ha, thanks for the laugh
You might be onto something here. I think I probably make a poor follower since there is nothing to follow. I am a poor leader because I am trying to hold the world on my shoulders without his (name removed by moderator)ut/contribution. So yeah. Agreed. Also, it’s hard to have respect when their is complete abandonment of leadership, which in my book is akin to abandonment of your family/your post.
I guess that the only thing that really irks me about this approach is that it nonetheless involves ME initiating what he needs to do and reminding him of his responsibilities rather than him taking the initiative and doing what needs to be done. Even when it comes to getting counseling (which I am looking into), it is still me doing it all, looking for a solution, trying to hold everything together once again. Can someone save me for once?
So I have two options.- Your husband is a scumbag. The worst of the worst. And you were tricked into marrying him, having children with him, and then his true colors came out.
- You are completely slandering him and resent and hate him. And so you sabotage his ability to lead by emasculating him to his face and behind his back.
I was not joking. If what you post is the truth then I would show it to him. If my wife thought this way of me, I would definitely “change”. Does he know how you feel, or do you passively nag at him constantly so that it does not seem to have an impact? I would never write something about my wife that I did not intend to tell her. I would never post something that I would be embarrassed if she read it. I have been BEYOND frustrated at times with my spouse. Most people are at times. But I would never do that to my teammate. Never.
In football, where leadership is paramount, if someone did as you have done, they would be off the team. IF your QB is making mistakes, take it to the locker room, but keep it out of the press.
Sometimes CAF is a pretty nasty place. It can be used to further faith and family, but it can be used as a tool to dismantle and undermine as well.
To be clear, no matter if my wife or I were to lead on an issue, if this was posted about the other, if this was the attitude and lack of respect one person got, neither of us could ever lead or follow.
Show this to your husband.
N
NurseyJ
Guest
He does know how frustrated I feel about this. Sometimes, long-nursed wounds have a way of making a person (moi) feel increasingly resentful and angry. Contrary to how it may look, I’m not on here to smear him. If I wanted to do that, I’d publish his name/photo and let our closest friends and family know, and I definitely have not done that. I saw coming on CAF as a way to safely vent my frustrations and to try to get some perspective from others. I know men might not relate to the female “needing to vent” thing, but that is what I am doing. I am genuinely frustrated, ticked off, at my wits end. I am screaming out for help because I feel like I can’t go on any longer like this. My husband knows it and he has expressed that he knows that he is a poor leader. It remains to be seen whether or not he will change. It’s been 5years of being married and I am still waiting.I still find it odd the way you are portraying the man you love. I guess what I am saying is it sure looks like you think he is lazy, and worthless. And you publically make this known by telling the world online.
Is there another option?
- Your husband is a scumbag. The worst of the worst. And you were tricked into marrying him, having children with him, and then his true colors came out.
- You are completely slandering him and resent and hate him. And so you sabotage his ability to lead by emasculating him to his face and behind his back.
I was not joking. If what you post is the truth then I would show it to him. If my wife thought this way of me, I would definitely “change”. Does he know how you feel, or do you passively nag at him constantly so that it does not seem to have an impact? I would never write something about my wife that I did not intend to tell her. I would never post something that I would be embarrassed if she read it. I have been BEYOND frustrated at times with my spouse. Most people are at times. But I would never do that to my teammate. Never.
In football, where leadership is paramount, if someone did as you have done, they would be off the team. IF your QB is making mistakes, take it to the locker room, but keep it out of the press.
Sometimes CAF is a pretty nasty place. It can be used to further faith and family, but it can be used as a tool to dismantle and undermine as well.
To be clear, no matter if my wife or I were to lead on an issue, if this was posted about the other, if this was the attitude and lack of respect one person got, neither of us could ever lead or follow.
Show this to your husband.
T
thewanderer
Guest
I think the point you brought up about you not noticing the floors is another aspect to consider. I know this is an overgeneralization and a stereotype, which I normally try to avoid, but honestly, guys can be completely clueless. We have had a pile of recycle building up in the corner of our kitchen for weeks now, because of our work schedules and limited access to a car on our days off its hard to get to the recycle frequently. When I finally pointed it out to my husband, as something we need to deal with he was shocked, he absolutely had not in the least even noticed that we had this huge unsightly pile slowly taking over our kitchen for weeks. So, he never took the initiative to get this project finished, but not out of any lack of love on his part, but rather just because he is a guy, and for whatever reason, guys really are just clueless. Trust me, this is not the only such example in our marriage. Its important to not hold your husband up to higher expectations than he can accomplish. Just like its wrong for guys to expect their woman to always be stick skinny and gorgeous, despite however many pregnancies, medical issues and aging, its not really gonna work if the woman holds her man to unrealistic expectations either. If he is like the vast majority of men, there are going to be an untold number of things about which he will just be clueless, and so, for which it will be impossible for him to take initiative on. Thats just a reality, its kind of funny, because women are often told “men need to be the leaders take initiative, etc etc” but the reality is that there are an unbelievable number of areas (in particular those that deal with cleaning and aesthetics) that they are just not wired to be able to lead in. It goes against what us women have been told about them and the expectations we’ve been led to have, but once you realize and accept this truth you can let a lot of the stress and frustration that comes with him not meeting those expectations go. Trust me, its just not worth it.
T
thewanderer
Guest
Define “nothing”. When he comes home does he just go hide in a room and isolate himself from the family? Or is he loving and kind, but just doesn’t express that through taking initiative and leadership? What is his personality like? All of these things need to be taken into account. I somehow highly doubt that he is contributing “nothing” to your family, and the more you talk about him that way to yourself the greater your frustration will become and the more damaged your relationship. For better or worse, you married this guy. Now, you had a reason for doing so, even if you hoped a part of him would change, you still loved him (and I assume still do, though its being clouded by your frustration with these issues). Now, the truth is that there is a good chance your husband will never live up to your expectations for leading and taking initiative. But, since the frustration you feel from his failure to meet these expectations is seriously damaging and endangering your marriage you need to do something to try and help fix this situation. Now, since you can’t control his actions, the only thing you can do is change your expectations. Try to notice all the good things he contributes to your family, try to recognize all the value he brings, and praise him for those things. Realize that while you would prefer it if he took more initiative, that just isn’t going to happen, so if you want to have a good and happy marriage with him, try to recognize that it is unrealistic for this man that you love and married to meet them, and let them go. I know this can be hard, and I know that there are some cases where the guy really does need a good kick to get himself going, but, well, I guess my experience with my own amazing husband influences me on this one, besides lacking initiative on things he doesn’t notice, there are other ways that he lacks my drive and initiative to do things, and to get them just right, instead, he brings another perspective to everything, the importance of sometimes sitting back and smelling the roses, remember the story of Martha and Mary? Jesus said that it was Mary who took the better part even though Martha was the one who took all the initiative to get things done. While I have definitely found my husbands personality frustrating at times, I have also found that by setting that aside and instead focusing on seeing his side of things, and the good he brings, I have become a happier and more rounded person. Let your expectations slide, look for his value and worth, and who knows just what you will find and how you will grow as a couple. I definitely think its worth a try!
G
godisgood77
Guest
Has he changed in this area when compared to the time before your marriage?
W
whm
Guest
You mentioned that you had a baby recently. Have you talked to your doctor about being at wits end and depressed? My wife developed PPD after our second kid and your original post reminded me of how she felt prior to dealing with the PPD. I of course have no way of knowing and am not suggesting that you have PPD, but it can be very serious.
H
Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
The internet is never anonymous. If you do a search you will find CAF threads ten years old. You have been a member for 4 years! The point is, as others have pointed out, you need counseling. If for no other reason than to be able to “vent” If you continue down this path, you will not be married for 5 more years.
Find a priest.
Find a counselor.
You can even use CAF. But not for something that you would not show him. He (or your children) could see this and know your user name in the future. IF you think it is impossible then you could be hiding an online profile from your family.
Honestly, just from what you have posted, I would not think your husband is the main problem. I think you have some changes to make before you jump on him to change.
Please take that for what it is worth. I do not mean to be mean or cruel but rather honest.
Look at it like this. Say it is as you describe. Say, God shows him how to lead. Say he becomes the man you wish you had. And say your children read this. You would destroy his leadership. You would destroy his fatherhood.
I am curious. You married this right? You said I do? You opened yourself to him and had children? I assume he may have gotten worse but I highly doubt he “changed”
overnight.
I have talked to many women who liked the idea that they were in charge in a relationship early on, only then to discover they married exactly the man they wanted at the time, only now they don’t want him anymore.
J
jerryinbaok
Guest
Bingo!!
T
thewanderer
Guest
And this is precisely why I think you need to take a step back and re-evaluate. You can’t just sit around expecting that he will change. That has only led you to the terrible place you are in right now. You can’t change him, and if he won’t (or can’t) change, the only thing that can be done is for you to change yourself, change your attitude, get a new perspective. And yes, I know that can definitely be easier said than done, but its worth a try, you’ve tried changing him and you’ve tried waiting for him to change and all that has done is led you to your wits end. I think its time to try the unnoticed option of changing yourself. Don’t hold your relationship up to anyone elses standards, just because lots of men do all the “man’s” chores doesn’t mean that that will work in your relationship. Look for the positives of what he does do, the ways he does things for you and your family out of love, no matter how small they are, and make a conscious effort to value those. If the current expectations you have for him are destroying the relationship re-evaluate them. Find some compromise that you can live with and that he can actually accomplish.
U
underacloud
Guest
Well said. It’s a perfect summary of the situation NurseyJ is in, and her only real way to deal with it.
NurseyJ, some people just aren’t leaders. You knew that he wasn’t when you married him, and five years of marriage confirms it. Stop expecting him to change and try to find ways that your marriage will work based on the two people in the marriage, rather than some external ideal you seem to hold to. Counselling, either as a couple or just for yourself, would be a great first step to exploring this.
X
Xantippe
Guest
thewanderer said:
“Thats just a reality, its kind of funny, because women are often told “men need to be the leaders take initiative, etc etc” but the reality is that there are an unbelievable number of areas (in particular those that deal with cleaning and aesthetics) that they are just not wired to be able to lead in. It goes against what us women have been told about them and the expectations we’ve been led to have, but once you realize and accept this truth you can let a lot of the stress and frustration that comes with him not meeting those expectations go.”
Yes, and in fact, a woman might find that she didn’t really WANT her husbands opinion on a lot of these things. My husband and I, for instance, have radically different ideas on aesthetics. His ideal home would be an industrial-looking loft with everything highly functional and as inexpensive as possible. I, on the other hand, have much more traditional and expensive tastes. (My husband wants to know what’s wrong with laminate countertops.)
The OP may be envisioning an ideal where her husband is her perfect clone and he does everything the way she would do it, but without her having to worry about it. That ideal does not exist outside of a science fiction story. If he were to lead, he would almost certainly lead in directions she wouldn’t like, at least some of the time.
In my family, I’m definitely the planner and the strategist. We’re working on the logistics for this, and lately I’ve written up a to-do list, emailed it to my husband and also posted it on the fridge. On Saturdays when we are both free, we study the list, decide which items are high priority and can be realistically done that day and then we get to it (it’s primarily my husband doing the work, but of course I’m watching and feeding and supervising the kids). I try not to micromanage my husband as he tackles these tasks, but I do keep the list. At the end of the day on Saturday, I cross off the finished tasks, send a fresh version of the list to my husband and post it on the fridge. It’s a somewhat Sisyphean lifestyle, but eventually we’ll be older and the kids will be grown and we’ll have all week to do this stuff.
If I expected my husband to keep track of household tasks and keep the to-do list, I would be bitterly disappointed.
“Thats just a reality, its kind of funny, because women are often told “men need to be the leaders take initiative, etc etc” but the reality is that there are an unbelievable number of areas (in particular those that deal with cleaning and aesthetics) that they are just not wired to be able to lead in. It goes against what us women have been told about them and the expectations we’ve been led to have, but once you realize and accept this truth you can let a lot of the stress and frustration that comes with him not meeting those expectations go.”
Yes, and in fact, a woman might find that she didn’t really WANT her husbands opinion on a lot of these things. My husband and I, for instance, have radically different ideas on aesthetics. His ideal home would be an industrial-looking loft with everything highly functional and as inexpensive as possible. I, on the other hand, have much more traditional and expensive tastes. (My husband wants to know what’s wrong with laminate countertops.)
The OP may be envisioning an ideal where her husband is her perfect clone and he does everything the way she would do it, but without her having to worry about it. That ideal does not exist outside of a science fiction story. If he were to lead, he would almost certainly lead in directions she wouldn’t like, at least some of the time.
In my family, I’m definitely the planner and the strategist. We’re working on the logistics for this, and lately I’ve written up a to-do list, emailed it to my husband and also posted it on the fridge. On Saturdays when we are both free, we study the list, decide which items are high priority and can be realistically done that day and then we get to it (it’s primarily my husband doing the work, but of course I’m watching and feeding and supervising the kids). I try not to micromanage my husband as he tackles these tasks, but I do keep the list. At the end of the day on Saturday, I cross off the finished tasks, send a fresh version of the list to my husband and post it on the fridge. It’s a somewhat Sisyphean lifestyle, but eventually we’ll be older and the kids will be grown and we’ll have all week to do this stuff.
If I expected my husband to keep track of household tasks and keep the to-do list, I would be bitterly disappointed.
E
exiled
Guest
With the graces available through the Sacraments, I was able to see my husband, who was not, and is still not, a spiritual leader or disciplinarian of any kind (unless it was abusive discipline) in a better light.
What he did do was play with the kids. He takes them fishing and canoeing and hiking and shopping and everything under the sun. The fact that he was a big kid himself made me soooo mad earlier in our marriage, but I prayed and prayed. I realized that I just needed to accept being a “single parent” on those issues within our household. As twenty years have gone by my oldest children, who have become darn strong Catholics. My oldest has acknowledged to me that he saw that I did it all (with re: to the tough stuff of parenthood). That gives me peace, because I worked so hard not to disparage their father when he would go off on a tantrum (aforementioned abusive “discipline”).
After prayer I came to the conclusion that if it were not for me, the kids would have no discipline, but without him they would have no fun. And the fun he provided was a good fun, and they love him to death for what he DID do.
So, my point? Consider how he may be helping your family in ways unknown to you now. Even if it’s making a saint out of you for your kids to look up to (St. Monica, for instance) when they are grown.
Praise God he has a job, and find ways to make your life a little easier with wash/dry/fold service, cleaning help, a good priest and daily Mass to provide the spiritual leadership. With God’s help you can be sanctified by this marriage, and that’s what it’s all about.
What he did do was play with the kids. He takes them fishing and canoeing and hiking and shopping and everything under the sun. The fact that he was a big kid himself made me soooo mad earlier in our marriage, but I prayed and prayed. I realized that I just needed to accept being a “single parent” on those issues within our household. As twenty years have gone by my oldest children, who have become darn strong Catholics. My oldest has acknowledged to me that he saw that I did it all (with re: to the tough stuff of parenthood). That gives me peace, because I worked so hard not to disparage their father when he would go off on a tantrum (aforementioned abusive “discipline”).
After prayer I came to the conclusion that if it were not for me, the kids would have no discipline, but without him they would have no fun. And the fun he provided was a good fun, and they love him to death for what he DID do.
So, my point? Consider how he may be helping your family in ways unknown to you now. Even if it’s making a saint out of you for your kids to look up to (St. Monica, for instance) when they are grown.
Praise God he has a job, and find ways to make your life a little easier with wash/dry/fold service, cleaning help, a good priest and daily Mass to provide the spiritual leadership. With God’s help you can be sanctified by this marriage, and that’s what it’s all about.
T
thewanderer
Guest
Yes, yes, and yes.
Especially the part about kids growing up and understanding what was really going on and appreciating you for all that you did. I didn’t recognize it at the time growing up, but I have since come to realize just how much our mother did and sacrificed for us kids despite the extremely difficult hand she was dealt and there is no other person I look up to, respect and love who can compare to her in my mind. Her example of loving self-sacrifice has taught me so much about the true nature of marriage, love, and God and has shaped my life for the better in so many ways.
S
Sunbreak
Guest
Some people wouldn’t consider this a problem at all. I’d be happy to have a guy around who was very laid back, since I am very opinionated and also like to plan and organize things. You married someone who is obviously not a leader - not all men are - so I suppose the best you can hope for is to give him specific tasks to do because he isn’t going to take the initiative.
- Status