Husband does not want intimacy at all!

[kristacecilia]

I am not sure, please bear with me why I try to explain why so maybe you can understand and explain for me a little more clearly so that I can understand where you are coming from.

*St. Gianna Molla envisaged a Christian family as a cenacle gathered around Jesus. This seems to go along with what I understand of catholic church teaching. Which is that the relationship between a husband and wife, in Holy Matrimony, is a reflection of the relationship between Jesus Christ and His church. *

*If this is so the husband would reflect Jesus and the wife and children would reflect the church. Understanding this, when is it right for the church to tell Jesus Christ He needs to respect it’s boundaries? *

*Maybe I misunderstand exactly how the husband and wife, in Holy matrimony, reflect the relationship of Jesus Christ and His church. If this is the case could you please help me to understand her teachings of this more clearly? *

Now you’ll have to bear with me while I try to explain!

You are exactly right that marriage reflects the relationship between Jesus and his Church. However, Jesus is God. Jesus is perfect. Jesus is the perfect husband.

Just like the reflection we see of ourselves depends on the quality of mirror we are looking in, the reflection of the relationship between Christ and His Church depends on the quality of the people in the marriage we are looking at.

I am not perfect. My husband is not perfect. We do not have a perfect marriage. In fact, thanks to original sin and our fallen nature, *no one *has a perfect marriage.

People sin… even the most holy people sin through omission (the things we failed to do, not the things we actually did), right? Since we are both sinners, sin is a part of our marriage.

We hurt people, even unintentionally. We sometimes hurt intentionally because we are acting petty. It happens. It is part of being human.

Forgiveness and love are the things that keep us going even after we have sinned against each other. We take the model for that from Jesus, too.

 

[phil8888]

just for clarification, how much do you both weight (and height)

 

[simple_soul]

Now you’ll have to bear with me while I try to explain!

You are exactly right that marriage reflects the relationship between Jesus and his Church. However, Jesus is God. Jesus is perfect. Jesus is the perfect husband.

Just like the reflection we see of ourselves depends on the quality of mirror we are looking in, the reflection of the relationship between Christ and His Church depends on the quality of the people in the marriage we are looking at.

I am not perfect. My husband is not perfect. We do not have a perfect marriage. In fact, thanks to original sin and our fallen nature, *no one *has a perfect marriage.

People sin… even the most holy people sin through omission (the things we failed to do, not the things we actually did), right? Since we are both sinners, sin is a part of our marriage.

We hurt people, even unintentionally. We sometimes hurt intentionally because we are acting petty. It happens. It is part of being human.

Forgiveness and love are the things that keep us going even after we have sinned against each other. We take the model for that from Jesus, too.

*So because we are sinful it gives me the “justification” to question and go against my husband and what he wants and what he decides should be? *

 

[kristacecilia]

*So because we are sinful it gives me the “justification” to question and go against my husband and what he wants and what he decides should be? *

I firmly hold to the idea that the husband is the head of the family the same way that Christ is the head of the Church. The fact of the matter is, though, that my husband is not Jesus Christ. My husband is a human being with a fallen nature and, therefore, my husband sins.

Husbands have their own struggles. Sometimes they fail. Sometimes they need to be told (just like wives or anyone else need to be told) that what they are doing is NOT okay.

Sorry, but I just have to ask… are you married?

 

[simple_soul]

I firmly hold to the idea that the husband is the head of the family the same way that Christ is the head of the Church. The fact of the matter is, though, that my husband is not Jesus Christ. My husband is a human being with a fallen nature and, therefore, my husband sins.

Husbands have their own struggles. Sometimes they fail. Sometimes they need to be told (just like wives or anyone else need to be told) that what they are doing is NOT okay.

Sorry, but I just have to ask… are you married?

*Yes I am married, for about 11 years now.

To me, even though he does have a fallen nature, he still deserves all my love and devotion by my living to please him by doing as he wills. Just like the church lives, giving all of it’s love and devotion to Jesus and doing as He wills.

I guess what I do not understand is how does the church teach us when it is justified to go against our husband’s will and not look at him as the head of the family, like Christ is head of the Church?
Understanding this may help me understand more clearly where you are coming from.*

 

[kristacecilia]

Yes I am married, for about 11 years now.

*To me, even though he does have a fallen nature, he still deserves all my love and devotion by my living to please him by doing as he wills. Just like the church lives, giving all of it’s love and devotion to Jesus and doing as He wills. *

*I guess what I do not understand is how does the church teach us when it is justified to go against our husband’s will and not look at him as the head of the family, like Christ is head of the Church? *
Understanding this may help me understand more clearly where you are coming from.

I am not saying you should go against your husband’s will. If my husband came to me and said, “I have thought and prayed a lot about X and I think we should do Y.” I would absolutely say okay as long as it was not obviously contrary to morality.

I would not go along with, “I have thought and prayed about this and I think we should have an open marriage.” In that case I think I would say, “Uh… let’s go talk to Father Joseph about this.”

My answer would be that the Church teaches us it is our obligation to go against, or at least question our husband’s will, when our husbands are making decisions contrary to the teachings of the Church. We are supposed to be trying to get them to heaven, are we not? That is a very grave undertaking. We are not called to be mindless backseat passengers in our marriage. If a husband is making obviously immoral decisions, than wives better step in to encourage or insist on counselling from a good priest and continued prayer.

If you go back and read my posts, the things I have said are worth fighting for are things that would be obviously immoral: adultery, abusing people, abusing drugs and alcohol, spending large amounts money out of caprice or vanity, excessive sloth, etc. Another example I can think of that I have seen in real life is sterlization or use of artificial birth control.

Our husbands are called to be LIKE Christ. We, as wives, are called to be LIKE the Church. That doesn’t mean that either party in a marriage won’t mess up or that their authority should be held to be higher than the authority of Christ or the Church by the other party. When one party messes up- obviously messes up- not calling them on it and encouraging them to reconcile themselves to Christ and the Church is just negligent.

 

[mommamaree]

*Yes I am married, for about 11 years now.

To me, even though he does have a fallen nature, he still deserves all my love and devotion by my living to please him by doing as he wills. Just like the church lives, giving all of it’s love and devotion to Jesus and doing as He wills.

I guess what I do not understand is how does the church teach us when it is justified to go against our husband’s will and not look at him as the head of the family, like Christ is head of the Church?
Understanding this may help me understand more clearly where you are coming from.*

Our job as wives is to encourage and, when necessary, correct our husbands. Our husbands will make mistakes, will sin and fall into error. If we have compassion for our husbands, we will lovingly show them the way to be more Christ-like. Of course, that requires prayer and careful consideration of a proper approach when such gentle correction is necessary. As an example, my husband still struggles with losing his temper and saying hurtful things. He has done this with me and still does so with our 5yo daughter. When he does this, I call him into another room and remind him of the power of his words and how his anger at our daughter will be perceived by her as if she is not a good little girl or that her daddy doesn’t love her. Once I tell him this, he usually excuses himself for a time-out alone in our room. Now that we are Catholic, I am confident that he is using that time-out for prayer, asking for God’s forgiveness, asking for guidance and help to be a better daddy (or husband when the injury was mine). Then he comes back to his family ready to reconcile and be loving. If I allowed him to persist in these behaviors, just because he is supposed to be the head of the family like Jesus is the head of the Church, I would be in grave error as well. God gave man a wife in order to help the husband become more Christ-like. Husbands cannot do this alone, they need our help. In the same way, a husband who behaves like Christ is better able to encourage his wife.
And also always remember that our husband is not to replace Christ in our lives or homes, but is to represent Him. Respect your husband, but if he needs gentle correction on behavior toward his family or if he needs guidance on how to provide for his family, it is usually best if that comes from his wife who loves and respects him and wants him to become all that he was created to be.

 

[kristacecilia]

Our job as wives is to encourage and, when necessary, correct our husbands. Our husbands will make mistakes, will sin and fall into error. If we have compassion for our husbands, we will lovingly show them the way to be more Christ-like. Of course, that requires prayer and careful consideration of a proper approach when such gentle correction is necessary. As an example, my husband still struggles with losing his temper and saying hurtful things. He has done this with me and still does so with our 5yo daughter. When he does this, I call him into another room and remind him of the power of his words and how his anger at our daughter will be perceived by her as if she is not a good little girl or that her daddy doesn’t love her. Once I tell him this, he usually excuses himself for a time-out alone in our room. Now that we are Catholic, I am confident that he is using that time-out for prayer, asking for God’s forgiveness, asking for guidance and help to be a better daddy (or husband when the injury was mine). Then he comes back to his family ready to reconcile and be loving. If I allowed him to persist in these behaviors, just because he is supposed to be the head of the family like Jesus is the head of the Church, I would be in grave error as well. God gave man a wife in order to help the husband become more Christ-like. Husbands cannot do this alone, they need our help. In the same way, a husband who behaves like Christ is better able to encourage his wife.
And also always remember that our husband is not to replace Christ in our lives or homes, but is to represent Him. Respect your husband, but if he needs gentle correction on behavior toward his family or if he needs guidance on how to provide for his family, it is usually best if that comes from his wife who loves and respects him and wants him to become all that he was created to be.

I think you said it a lot better than I did!

 

[simple_soul]

My answer would be that the Church teaches us it is our obligation to go against, or at least question our husband’s will, when our husbands are making decisions contrary to the teachings of the Church. We are supposed to be trying to get them to heaven, are we not? That is a very grave undertaking. We are not called to be mindless backseat passengers in our marriage. If a husband is making obviously immoral decisions, than wives better step in to encourage or insist on counselling from a good priest and continued prayer.

I agree we should try to help our husbands and that it is a grave undertaking to do this. My question is how does the Church teach us to achieve this? And, how does the Church teach us that it is our obligation to go against or at least question our husband’s will? Do you have any resourses that I can use to help me understand?

 

[simple_soul]

We are not called to be mindless backseat passengers in our marriage. .

I can not get this thought our of my head so I had to come back and comment on it. Maybe it will help you understand why I get confused with what you say. I see no problem with being a backseat passenger in my marriage… although I do hope and pray that I am not a “mindless” one. Is this going against catholic teaching?

 

[mommamaree]

I can not get this thought our of my head so I had to come back and comment on it. Maybe it will help you understand why I get confused with what you say. I see no problem with being a backseat passenger in my marriage… although I do hope and pray that I am not a “mindless” one. Is this going against catholic teaching?

Simple soul,
did you read my response to you? And another question, why would it be appropriate for you to take a ‘backseat’ in your marriage? You are called to be a helpmeet (equal partner) for your husband. Now, it is up to you and your husband how to work out what that partnership looks like, but you do need to remember that you are not his inferior. Maybe we are misunderstanding you here, but it really sounds like you are interpreting Catholic teachings on marriage to say that as a woman/wife you should have no voice in the relationship and that your husband should decide everything with no (name removed by moderator)ut from you and that you are to serve your husband as if he is above you. This is not Catholic teaching. Please see above for my initial response to your questions.

 

[whatevergirl]

I can not get this thought our of my head so I had to come back and comment on it. Maybe it will help you understand why I get confused with what you say. I see no problem with being a backseat passenger in my marriage… although I do hope and pray that I am not a “mindless” one. Is this going against catholic teaching?

*Just curious, if you are in the backseat of your marriage, who’s in the front seat with your husband? No, you don’t take a backseat in your marriage…I will pray that things get better, and that you realize you have equal value in your marriage. *

 

[simple_soul]

,
did you read my response to you?

*Dear mommamaree,

Yes I read your response.*

, And another question, why would it be appropriate for you to take a ‘backseat’ in your marriage?

Why would it be inappropriate?

,
You are called to be a helpmeet (equal partner) for your husband.
Now, it is up to you and your husband how to work out what that partnership looks like,

I know I am to be my husbands helper but I do not believe that it makes us equal. It is my understanding that the role of a husband and wife and how they relate and interact with each other is very different and very critical to the family environment. Both are unique and specific for a reason. I am just not sure I completely understand this reason and more importantly if it goes against any church teaching. They are not the same and they do not have equal shares like a partnership in business but the do have their own important, priceless value.

,
Maybe we are misunderstanding you here, but it really sounds like you are interpreting Catholic teachings on marriage to say that as a woman/wife you should have no voice in the relationship and that your husband should decide everything with no (name removed by moderator)ut from you and that you are to serve your husband as if he is above you.

Does the Church have a voice in it’s relationship with her spouse Jesus Christ?
Is the Church inferior to Jesus Christ?

,
This is not Catholic teaching. Please see above for my initial response to your questions.

Please offer me some resources that I can go to that might help me to understand why you believe that this is not church teaching and that what you say is church teaching?

 

[simple_soul]

*Just curious, if you are in the backseat of your marriage, who’s in the front seat with your husband? No, you don’t take a backseat in your marriage…I will pray that things get better, and that you realize you have equal value in your marriage. *

*It is a sports car that has one front seat and one back seat. No side seat.
Thank you for your prayers God knows I need them but please understand my marriage is not bad I actually love my marriage and my relationship with my husband I just want to understand it better so that I can improve it.

With my prayers*

 

[kristacecilia]

From Mulieris Dignitatem*, *section VII: The Church- The Bride of Christ (emphasis mine):

The author of the Letter to the Ephesians sees no contradiction between an exhortation formulated in this way and the words: “Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife” (5:22-23). The author knows that this way of speaking, so profoundly rooted in the customs and religious tradition of the time, is to be understood and carried out in a new way: as a “mutual subjection out of reverence for Christ” (cf. Eph 5:21). This is especially true because the husband is called the “head” of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church; he is so in order to give “himself up for her” (Eph 5:25), and giving himself up for her means giving up even his own life.** However, whereas in the relationship between Christ and the Church the subjection is only on the part of the Church, in the relationship between husband and wife the “subjection” is not**
one-sided but mutual.

In relation to the “old” this is evidently something “new”: it is an innovation of the Gospel. We find various passages in which the apostolic writings express this innovation, even though they also communicate what is “old”: what is rooted in the religious tradition of Israel, in its way of understanding and explaining the sacred texts, as for example the second chapter of the Book of Genesis.[49]

The apostolic letters are addressed to people living in an environment marked by that same traditional way of thinking and acting. The “innovation” of Christ is a fact: it constitutes the unambiguous content of the evangelical message and is the result of the Redemption.** However, the awareness that in marriage there is mutual “subjection of the spouses out of reverence for Christ”, and not just that of the wife to the husband,** must gradually establish itself in hearts, consciences, behavior and customs. This is a call which from that time onwards, does not cease to challenge succeeding generations; it is a call which people have to accept ever anew. Saint Paul not only wrote: “In Christ Jesus… there is no more man or woman”, but also wrote: “There is no more slave or freeman”. Yet how many generations were needed for such a principle to be realized in the history of humanity through the abolition of slavery! And what is one to say of the many forms of slavery to which individuals and peoples are subjected, which have not yet disappeared from history?

But the challenge presented by the “ethos” of the Redemption is clear and definitive. All the reasons in favor of the “subjection” of woman to man in marriage must be understood in the sense of a “mutual subjection” of both “out of reverence for Christ”. The measure of true spousal love finds its deepest source in Christ, who is the Bridegroom of the Church, his Bride.

 

[kristacecilia]

From the Catechisms’ section on marriage (emphasis mine):

**1605 **Holy Scripture affirms that man and woman were created for one another: "It is not good that the man should be alone."92 The woman, “flesh of his flesh,” his equal, his nearest in all things, is given to him by God as a “helpmate”; she thus represents God from whom comes our help.93 "Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh."94 The Lord himself shows that this signifies an unbreakable union of their two lives by recalling what the plan of the Creator had been “in the beginning”: "So they are no longer two, but one flesh."95

 

[mommamaree]

Kristacecelia -
Thank you for so much for posting the Catholic teachings on marriage and dignity of the spouses. The conversation of the past couple of pages was really getting concerning to me. I have read enough over the years on what God intends Christian marriage to be that I knew in my own head what the nature of this relationship should be, but I obviously wasn’t able to express it in a way that could be understood. In such situations, it is always the best thing to go straight to official Church teachings like you did. It really clarified everything, didn’t it?

 

[mommamaree]

*Dear mommamaree,

Yes I read your response.*

Why would it be inappropriate?

I know I am to be my husbands helper but I do not believe that it makes us equal. It is my understanding that the role of a husband and wife and how they relate and interact with each other is very different and very critical to the family environment. Both are unique and specific for a reason. I am just not sure I completely understand this reason and more importantly if it goes against any church teaching. They are not the same and they do not have equal shares like a partnership in business but the do have their own important, priceless value.

Does the Church have a voice in it’s relationship with her spouse Jesus Christ?
Is the Church inferior to Jesus Christ?

Please offer me some resources that I can go to that might help me to understand why you believe that this is not church teaching and that what you say is church teaching?

Check out the awesome resources that Kristacecelia has posted!
Both spouses are equal in dignity, although necessarily different in the roles/functions they carry out. You are mixing up equality with sameness in our discussion; it is a common mistake, but still one to be guarded against.
Remember, your husband is NOT Jesus Christ, but is called to represent Christ to his family. What did Christ do for us? He served, he healed, he taught, and ultimately, he laid down his life for us. Whenever your husband is acting in a Christ-like way, you can willingly submit. However, even Jesus needed help carrying out his mission. In the gospels, we see that Jesus loved his disciples and the apostles. He treated them as brothers, not as inferiors. He trusted them to take the lead in building His church is his physical absence. Doesn’t sound like a ‘backseat passenger’ to me!
And in regards to your question about whether or not the Church has a voice in her relationship with Jesus, I would respond ‘Absolutely, she does!’ Are we not taught that Jesus informed his apostles that whatever they bind upon earth will be bound in heaven and whatever they loose upon earth will be loosed in heaven. Jesus knew that there would be times when the Church would have to make decisions regarding the faithful that he could not possibly have time to prepare the apostles to make. He also promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide them, but he gave the authority to the Church to carry on in His absence. Also, what else is prayer but the Church and its people having an audience with the King of Heaven? Isn’t it amazing that the Creator of all the Universe wants to hear our prayers, wants us to tell Him our needs. One of the other amazing teachings of the Catholic church that I love is that God is merely waiting to unleash all that He has in store for us if only we would just ASK! Wow! Think about that for a minute.
So of course, the Church and its faithful have the ear of the Almighty. He listens and answers our prayers, He sends His Holy Spirit to guide and comfort and more.
Anyway, I hope this helps. God Himself desires willing partners to work with Him, just as a husband needs a willing partner to work with him. Definitely go back and read through the great references that Kristacecelia posted for us. I would love to hear your thoughts after you get a chance to read and ponder!

 

[kristacecilia]

Kristacecelia -
Thank you for so much for posting the Catholic teachings on marriage and dignity of the spouses. The conversation of the past couple of pages was really getting concerning to me. I have read enough over the years on what God intends Christian marriage to be that I knew in my own head what the nature of this relationship should be, but I obviously wasn’t able to express it in a way that could be understood. In such situations, it is always the best thing to go straight to official Church teachings like you did. It really clarified everything, didn’t it?

I agree!

I was way to tired to comment on any of it, but it’s out there for everyone’s consideration, at least!

 

[SonCatcher]

I’m rather new to the thread but did anyone suggest a comprehensive NFP technique? It looks like the LadyComp is a BBT-only method, but if your temperatures are not reliable, you may benefit by blending it with a clinical-observation method such as Creighton or the sympto-thermal method taught by CCL (which is blended). Modifying your technique can yield you several more days each cycle.

Regarding your husband’s caveman-like coldness, I would probably be similar were it not for extensive relationship instruction I received before I even met my wife. Books like 5 Love Languages are helpful, too.

Lastly, do not neglect each other in your abstaining days. There is plenty you can do on those days. It’s difficult when only one of a couple is developing the relationship, but it’s always better than none.