Husband is buddhist, we're talking about having a vasectomy

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arthurstreet.com/celibacy1993.html#Anchor-Th-1269

please go to the section: the history of the celibacy in the catholic church. priests were at one time allowed to have sex.
Again, I would suggest you go a bit further than the writings of one obscure journalist.

In the Latin Rite, celibate clergy is a discipline, not a doctrine. There are married Latin Rite Priests, I have one as an associate pastor.

My point is that there is a well spread myth that this discipline came about as the result of land ownership rights. That is not an historical fact.

There are also volumes of study and research that show that the priest abuse scandal has nothing to do with celibacy.

Have you researched what person is most likely to abuse? Do some research, you will find the results.
 
You might find some itmes of interest here:

catholic.com/library/A_Crisis_of_Saints.asp

and a few more references:

Protestant ministers, deacons and lay leaders
commit more acts of child abuse than Catholic Priests.

For one link to an ‘incomplete’ list of Protestant Clergy Abuse ~
reformation.com

1.8% of all priests ordained from 1950-2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.

In the authoritative work by Penn State professor Philip Jenkins,
Pedophiles and Priests, it was determined that between
.2 and 1.7 percent of priests are pedophiles.
The figure among the Protestant clergy ranges between 2 and 3 percent.
Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests
(New York: Oxford University Press), pp. 50 and 81.

Other Protestant ‘Clergy’ Facts include:

In a 1984 survey, 38.6 percent of ministers reported sexual contact
with a church member, and 76 percent knew of another minister who
had had sexual intercourse with a parishioner.

In the same year, a Fuller Seminary survey of 1,200 ministers found
that 20 percent of theologically “conservative” pastors admitted to
some sexual contact outside of marriage with a church member.

The figure jumped to over 40 percent for “moderates”;

50 percent of “liberal” pastors confessed to similar behavior.

Dale Neal, “Methodist Clergy Instructed in Sexual Ethics at Conference,”
Asheville Citizen-Times, May 14, 2002, p. 1B.

Cal Thomas, “Their Sins only Start with Abuse,”
Baltimore Sun, June 19, 2002, p. 9A.

In a 1993 survey by the Journal of Pastoral Care,
14 percent of Southern Baptist ministers said they had engaged in
“inappropriate sexual behavior,” and 70 percent said they knew a minister
who had had such contact with a parishioner.

Joe E. Trull is co-author of the 1993 book, Ministerial Ethics,
and he found that “from 30 to 35 percent of ministers of all
denominations admit to having sexual relationships—
from inappropriate touching to sexual intercourse—outside of marriage.”

Teresa Watanabe, “Sex Abuse by Clerics—A Crisis of Many Faiths,”
Los Angeles Times, March 25, 2002, p. A1.

Cal Thomas, “Their Sins only Start with Abuse,”
Baltimore Sun, June 19, 2002, p. 9A.

In the spring of 2002, when the sexual abuse scandal in the
Catholic Church was receiving unprecedented attention,
the Christian Science Monitor reported on the results of national
surveys by Christian Ministry Resources.

The conclusion:
“Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the
Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit
with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant"

Mark Clayton, “Sex Abuse Spans Spectrum of Churches,”
Christian Science Monitor, April 5, 2002, p. 1.

I can quote you lots more citations.

There are many people who want to beat up my Church, and it does take time to dig past the rumours to the truth.
 
I’m not debating sexual abuse in the catholic church versus anybody else. My debate lies with the celibacy and how it has changed in the catholic church

Period.

It was just an afterthought… when I started talking about priests and celibacy and how things have changed. I have no doubt that other churches have the same problems. Shoot, I live in utah and know the scandals that now exist and have existed since the mormon church came about.

Maybe we need women clergy?
 
Hmmm.

This thread started out as “is it a sin for me if my buddhist husband gets a vasectomy”, and ends up as an attack on the Church’s teaching on birth control-insinuating that that’s to blame for AIDS and promiscuous drug addicts ("if only the Catholic church would hand out condoms and bcp, the promiscuous drug addicts would stop their immoral behavior :rolleyes: "), priestly celibacy, and finally, the all male priesthood.

I must commend the OP: you hid your real agenda pretty well, you almost had me fooled to the very end :tsktsk:

In Christ,

Ellen
 
I’m sorry, I’m not trying to hide anything here. I’m a 32 year old, well…almost 32 year old mother of 3 that is struggling to understand my faith… and I’m reaching out here trying to understand why I go to mass when I have so many questions in the end.

I’m not blaming the church for anything or suggesting that the church hand out condoms or that they are to blame for aids. Nobody is to blame for aids but the people who do the act in my opinion.

I’m trying hard to get answers here and nothing that anybody has said here makes me really think that bcp is wrong. I know why it’s wrong in the catholic church, I know what it does chemically and I totally get that, I just struggle with it because if it’s wrong for us, why isn’t it okay for others out there living a bad life on the streets? I don’t know, I’m dumb I guess… and once I start exploring things in my mind, I just start typing away. I’m sorry, I didn’t come on here to burn bridges or be a thorn in anybody side. I can’t believe I didn’t come on here years ago. I’ve had all these questions for so long and never knew what to do with them and I just go to church and pray about it and I still have no answers.

Anyway, I’m not trying to make an agenda or hide an agenda. I just want to talk freely w/out everybody taking such a bad offense to it.

I’ll admit it, I’m a struggling catholic- but I try and I’m reaching out to you and I ache so bad for answers. I’m so confused-

After dinner tonight, I went searching on the web and found this article. Just interesting reading is all. I think if the bcp is considered “wrong” or grossly a sin, I think NFP is too.

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/

scroll down to the bottom portion of all the articles and you will see: “natural family planning is sinful birth control”
 
I’m sorry, I’m not trying to hide anything here. I’m a 32 year old, well…almost 32 year old mother of 3 that is struggling to understand my faith… and I’m reaching out here trying to understand why I go to mass when I have so many questions in the end.

I’m not blaming the church for anything or suggesting that the church hand out condoms or that they are to blame for aids. Nobody is to blame for aids but the people who do the act in my opinion.

I’m trying hard to get answers here and nothing that anybody has said here makes me really think that bcp is wrong. I know why it’s wrong in the catholic church, I know what it does chemically and I totally get that, I just struggle with it because if it’s wrong for us, why isn’t it okay for others out there living a bad life on the streets? I don’t know, I’m dumb I guess… and once I start exploring things in my mind, I just start typing away. I’m sorry, I didn’t come on here to burn bridges or be a thorn in anybody side. I can’t believe I didn’t come on here years ago. I’ve had all these questions for so long and never knew what to do with them and I just go to church and pray about it and I still have no answers.

Anyway, I’m not trying to make an agenda or hide an agenda. I just want to talk freely w/out everybody taking such a bad offense to it.

I’ll admit it, I’m a struggling catholic- but I try and I’m reaching out to you and I ache so bad for answers. I’m so confused-

After dinner tonight, I went searching on the web and found this article. Just interesting reading is all. I think if the bcp is considered “wrong” or grossly a sin, I think NFP is too.

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/

scroll down to the bottom portion of all the articles and you will see: “natural family planning is sinful birth control”
I’d be interested to know how Buddhism perceives this question - I find it difficult to believe that with its much-vaunted respect for life, sterilisation would be at all consistent.
 
Questions and struggles are not bad - and if I ever come off as snappy - slap me please 🙂

One thing to realize, the site you linked is a site of a group who is not in Communion with the Church. They are a splinter group.

The Church has great profound teaching on this subject. Many of the people here can point you to teachers who break it down into real people language. One is Christopher West, his book “Good News about Sex and Marriage” is something I’d suggest. Another book is “Theology of the Body for Beginners”.

Something to keep in mind, sin is sin, it is sin for anyone - Catholic or Agnostic or Hindu. Think of murder, just because the Church teaches this is a sin, does that not make it applicable to the entire world? Some just may not REALIZE or accept it.

With prayer, study and the Sacraments, stick with it!!
 
Okay, thanks.

I just get so wrapped up in everything and I just cry and I am crying. I don’t know where to turn, but I appreciate you keeping with me. I just want to understand and be able to explain it to other people if they ask.

This is just really hard for me and I’m sorry if I seemed like it was something hidden or whatever, that’s not me, I just ramble and don’t know how to get it all out.

Thanks for listening and for your advice, and sorry if my thoughts were rambled and junked up.
 
this is why I have all these questions is because my husband isn’t practicing buddhism at all, and I’d like to one day have him convert and how can I do that if I struggle so much with stuff.

Anyway, thanks again.
 
arthurstreet.com/celibacy1993.html#Anchor-Th-1269

please go to the section: the history of the celibacy in the catholic church. priests were at one time allowed to have sex.
I’ve had some time to digest this, the author is relying on secondary sources. A couple of books, should you wish to dig deeper into first sources are Stickler’s “The Case for Clerical Celibacy” (a dry read) and Stanley Jaki’s “Theology of Priestly Celibacy” (out of print, but your library may be able to find a copy or you could search a used source like Amazon or Albiris).
 
I apologize for my snarky post if you are sincerely searching for answers. But it did jump from just a personal question about your dh getting a vasectomy to suddenly questioning nearly all the church’s teaching about sexuality.

I not well versed enough to answer why abc is wrong, but I suggest you read Humanae Vitae (by Pope Paul VI), Evangelium Vitae (John Paul II), Theology of the Body (also by JPII), as well as pick up Janet Smith’s tape “Contraception: Why Not?” from One More Soul (www.oms.org-I think it’s org).

As far as Holy Family Monastery, they are radical traditionalists NOT in communion w/ Rome. In fact, I believe they are sedevacantist, meaning they don’t believe we’ve had a “real” Pope since Pius XII (John XXIII, Paul VI, JPII and BXVI are herectical "anti-popes and all priests and bishops ordained by them aren’t real priests and bishops, and we really aren’t celebrating the Mass in the Novus Ordo, and are not really receiving Jesus, and all of us are going to hell) and that Vatican II and all the teachings subsequent to it are heretical. DO NOT take anything that website says seriously. It’s not Catholic.

In Christ,

Ellen
 
I’m sorry, I disagree with you kage.

YOu can give a woman as much dignity as they want and talk about christ until you’re blue in the face, this doesn’t mean they will pick up a pen and paper and begin to chart their cycles. NOr does it mean they will use a condom or the bcp. All I’m saying is that for a lot of poor, underclass or uneducated women that are living a lifestyle on the streets are more LIKELY to go to a free clinic and get a condom or a bcp than to hear about how some catholic wants to bring up their dignity and teach them about nfp. I’m not saying we can’t do that, I’m just saying, let’s talk to this population of people about their options.

Michael, I appreciate your response, though I’m quite clear that the catholic church believes it’s a sin no matter how many chilren you have had or haven’t had.

Lastly, all this talk about birth control, things were different in the early days of the church. Priests and bishops were all married and had children. The reason it changed was because they were giving all of their land to their offspring and people started to object to this, and that is in some ways why priests are celibant. Would we still have all of these child molestations in the church, bcp being a moral sin as well as a vasectomy if priests were allowed to marry and have viable offspring? Things have changed with the priesthood and celibacy, don’t we need to work towards some type of compromise with controlling our population?
Wow you are all over the map, Started with wether or not your husband should have a vasectomy. Now you are on Priest celebacy:shrug:
 
Hmmm.

This thread started out as “is it a sin for me if my buddhist husband gets a vasectomy”, and ends up as an attack on the Church’s teaching on birth control-insinuating that that’s to blame for AIDS and promiscuous drug addicts ("if only the Catholic church would hand out condoms and bcp, the promiscuous drug addicts would stop their immoral behavior :rolleyes: "), priestly celibacy, and finally, the all male priesthood.

I must commend the OP: you hid your real agenda pretty well, you almost had me fooled to the very end :tsktsk:

In Christ,

Ellen
👍
 
You might read what the Church teaches:

CCC

2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).
Yes, I know what the Church teaches. But moral theology is not dogmatically defined and can adjust over time; I believe we are getting to a time where the Church will recognise that moral theology that was appropriate in the past is no longer appropriate.

I fully believe that marriages should be open to children; but that the number of children should take into consideration the circumstances of both the family and wider aspects. NFP is great for some but it does need to be recognised that it just doesn’t work well for some women.

I know lots of people will disgaree with what I’ve written (particularly in the US where contraception seems more of an issue). I’ll be interested to see how this develops of the next few years.

That’s it, I’ve said all I want to say on this thread. God bless you all+
 
luvmykidz:

I’m so sorry you are in tough place right now. I get it, I promise. Please know that the Church has answers, really good solutions, to every single struggle you are facing. kage_ar is right on the money in every post.

One of the reasons you are all over the map is you are trying to reinvent the wheel. Don’t bother. The wheel works great! The Church is 2000 years old. She does not move with the winds like many churches and secularists. Each and every concern you have can be addressed and you will find that the Church is smarter than we as individuals can ever be. She is the Bride of Christ. When you speak to Her, you speak to Christ. That is how marriage works.

I struggled with everything you are struggling with right now. (Including as a note from one of your other threads “how to be Catholic in Mormon territory.” Note my location.) You are trying to make a life altering decision in a state of fear. Again, I get that.

Don’t mutilate your husband’s body. Vasectomy is a medical nightmare and spiritually will change how he perceives himself. His vas defrens is supposed to be connected! His sperm is supposed to go out, not in. Think about a common phrase associated with vasectomy, “I took the bullets out of the gun.” Think about how a man perceives himself. Think about what he is saying, first by referring to his sexual faculties as a “gun” and secondly, now that weapon is useless. Why?

Contraception fails. We are not talking an IF here, we are talking a WHEN. Contraception hurts our bodies and more importantly, hurts our souls. There is one and only one way to prevent pregnancy: abstinence! Thanks to NFP we have periodic abstinence. It has been in place since time began. Please don’t let modern illogical arguments sway you. NFP is not some new-fangled ‘get out of pregnancy free’ card. It is as old as the design of the body itself. Women are fertile and infertile. Men are fertile 24/7. There is a reason to that. Please find out what it is.

Please feel free to PM me. Your concerns are very real, and every one of them has a better answer than secular society can give you. A few suggestions: Relax! Don’t try to solve the world’s problems right now. You can’t. You have babies to raise. That is where God has called you. You can do more to make this world better by teaching your children the Truth found in the Church than any other job right now. Your vocation is marriage and motherhood. That is an awesome vocation. I live it every day! Do you know that I have personally changed over 10,000 diapers? Talk about a role of service?

You aren’t going to Africa right now. Maybe you will in the future, but not now. Let the people who are solving the problems already continue to solve them. (Hint: Charlize or anyone else handing out condoms is compounding the problem not solving it.) You aren’t called to the Priesthood, we both know that. So for now let the concern over priestly celibacy go. When you are ready, there are tons of resources we can give you to understand this discipline more deeply.

Focus on one problem at a time. You fear another pregnancy. Fine. Let’s discuss real solutions to that very real and very appropriate concern. Your husband is not Catholic. That adds another dimension to your struggle. Let’s address that too. You are a Catholic who would like to learn more about your faith in the hopes that someday your husband might convert. Great!! Let’s learn the Faith, not try to change it. Your job: Catholic wife and mommy. That is one of the most holy jobs on this earth. Let’s work together to help us all be even better ones!

WHEW!!! Once again long-winded. I don’t need a post count in the corner. I need a word count!

God bless you!!
 
Luvmy…

Children are not that expensive, a child can grow up happy and healthy and well rounded even if they do not have a new outfit every week, their own bedroom, a pantry of new gadgets, playing every sport, going to expensive private school - those are extras,
yes, and most of that is true, but you forgot health insurance and medical costs in addition to that. A person may be in an area where private school is the only moral option for their safety and education, I know it is where I live. What about college? not all kids are smart enough to earn scholarships and I would hate to deny my children from becoming a vet, or a teacher, or something that needs a degree. What about car insurance when they get old enough to drive? not all kids make enough to pay for their own car AND insurance and be able to still keep their grades up. Just some expenses to think about. 🙂
 
yes, and most of that is true, but you forgot health insurance and medical costs in addition to that. A person may be in an area where private school is the only moral option for their safety and education, I know it is where I live. What about college? not all kids are smart enough to earn scholarships and I would hate to deny my children from becoming a vet, or a teacher, or something that needs a degree. What about car insurance when they get old enough to drive? not all kids make enough to pay for their own car AND insurance and be able to still keep their grades up. Just some expenses to think about. 🙂
All of these are points, but, not things that cannot be overcome.

Every state in which I have lived, there is insurance coverage/health care available for children who’s parents do not have insurance. There are other orginizations that will assist with getting children free necessary medical care - the parent will need to be creative.

Homeschooling can be done in a creative low cost way.

Teens can get a job and pay for a car, car insurance and save for college. No teen will die from lack of a mom-paid-for automobile. My parents paid cash for a used station wagon. Those of us who wanted to drive shared/passed down that car. We wanted something else, we found a way to buy it.

College - people actually DO attend low cost state and community colleges and get an education. People do work and go to school at the same time.

From what I have seen, the kids who paid for their own cars AND their own secondary education took seriously and were by FAR more responsible. Who are the big time party kids in college? Those with mommy and daddy footing the bills. There are some who have a golden meal ticket and apply themselves, but, they are rare. The kids/adults who really work in college are those who pay for it or earn their own scholarships.
 
true, unfortunatly not everyone are able to take advantage of all of those. Like I am not able to homeschool, because I have to work since I am a single mother. I am attending relatively low cost college now but it still adds up to thousands. Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against large families and would love one myself, it’s just that kids can get expensive if you are in the middle income class where you aren’t poor enough for government help and not rich enough to pay for everything yourself.
 
true, unfortunatly not everyone are able to take advantage of all of those. Like I am not able to homeschool, because I have to work since I am a single mother. I am attending relatively low cost college now but it still adds up to thousands. Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against large families and would love one myself, it’s just that kids can get expensive if you are in the middle income class where you aren’t poor enough for government help and not rich enough to pay for everything yourself.
This is where Christian family should be picking up and assisting our brothers and sisters. God set us up to live in big extended families - many of us now live far from our family. Our local Parish family would, I hope, step in and help with the things that a single mother needs, to be that family saftey net.

Of course, no one said that everyone must have any set number of children. The Church, in her wisdom, says that there are moral ways to space or refrain from having children. We can use NFP if we simply cannot afford more children.
 
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