Husband lied about strip club

[Elizabeth3]

Which “Catholic Dictionary” are you using? You realize there is not an “Official Catholic Dictionary”, right?

A modern dictionary of 5,679 Catholic terms (including abbreviations), both common and obscure. Find accurate definitions of words and phrases. All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.

Dictionary : MANDATUM

MANDATUM The washing of the feet in the Liturgy of Holy Thursday. In the revised ritual the washing of the feet takes placed after the Gospel, which narrates the same event at the Last Supper. The men who have been chosen are led to chairs prepared for them. Then the priest goes to each man...

www.catholicculture.org

The teaching documents of the Church define the important words. For example adultery is defined in the Catechism:

2380 Adultery refers to marital infidelity. When two partners, of whom at least one is married to another party, have sexual relations - even transient ones - they commit adultery. Christ condemns even adultery of mere desire. The sixth commandment and the New Testament forbid adultery absolutely. The prophets denounce the gravity of adultery; they see it as an image of the sin of idolatry.

How is this different from the definition of Marital infidelity I used from the Catholic Dictionary? I’m pretty sure the dictionary would get it’s definitions from the teaching documents even if they don’t mirror each other word-for-word.

There was a point made by kptrs that I was responding to in my comment that the Church defines Marital Infidelity and Adultery the same. I was confirming that was true.

 

[Elizabeth3]

The Catholic Church considers people to be married in one ceremony at the exchange of consent. Before that they are two unmarried people. It is kind and charitable for those preparing for marriage to consider the feelings of the other, but, the rules wrt marriage don’t begin until after that exchange of vows.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...doc_13051996_preparation-for-marriage_en.html

No one said that it’s adultery if a fiance cheats and the Church doesn’t see it that way either but the engagement period is more than just 'kind and charitable" consideration of “feelings.” It is a promise to marry and during that preparation period, the engaged are called to seriously and prayerfully discern what their vows mean and by their actions show they are ready for that next step.

"12. In countries where the process of de-Christianization is more prevalent, the disturbing crisis of moral values stands out, in particular, the loss of the identity of marriage and the Christian family and hence the meaning of engagement. In addition to these losses, there is a crisis of values within the family itself to which a climate of widespread and even legalized permissiveness contributes.

.17…The successful outcome of the engaged couple’s deepening in the faith is also conditioned by their previous formation. On the other hand, the way in which this period is lived will certainly have an influence on their future life as spouses and as a family. From this comes the decisive importance of the help offered to the engaged by their respective families and the whole ecclesial community. This also consists in prayer. In this regard, the blessing of the engaged which is foreseen in the De benedictionibus (nos. 195-214) is significant, in which the signs of this initial commitment are mentioned: the ring, the exchange of gifts and other customs (nos. 209-210). In any case, the human depth of the engagement should be recognized and saved from any commonplace approach."

A stupid strip club visit at bachelor party shows immaturity, lack of virtue, maybe that the man was a coward who cannot stand up for what he believes. Yep. It is not, on the other hand, marital infedility because there is was no marriage.

I never said it was marital infidelity. I said it was…

an act of unfaithfulness and doesn’t bode well for his mindset towards the vows he’s about to take.

 

[Elizabeth3]

This quote comes from an article on the USCCB website http://www.foryourmarriage.org/blogs/prayerfully-preparing-for-the-vocation-of-marriage/

This article is the author’s opinion, it is not definitive Catholic teaching. The article suggests some books to be read by the couple as they prepare for marriage, and the idea of praying together is very good advice, we do not want others to think that specific quote is official either.

I’m sure the article author’s opinion is based on Church teaching. If you want something more official, then there is this document.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...doc_13051996_preparation-for-marriage_en.html

16… Hence Christian marriage preparation can be described as a journey of faith which does not end with the celebration of marriage but continues throughout family life. Therefore, our perspective does not close with marriage as an act, at the moment of its celebration, but is on-going. This is why preparation is also a “special opportunity for the engaged to rediscover and deepen the faith received in Baptism and nourished by their Christian upbringing. In this way they come to recognize and freely accept their vocation to follow Christ and to serve the Kingdom of God in the married state” (FC 51).

.17 …Therefore, both the riches of marriage and the sacrament of Marriage, and the decisive importance of the engagement period-which today is often extended for years (with the various kinds of difficulties that this implies), are reasons which call for the particular solidity of this formation."

The point I was making about engagement is that the Church does see it as a more serious step and promise of marriage so it’s a big deal if during that time, the fiance is visiting strip clubs. It is not behavior consistent with someone about to take marriage vows.

 

[tafan2]

You explicitly insulted Deacon Jeff, actually calling into question if he was a Deacon, and then when someone defends him you say it is nitpicking. We are blessed to have Deacon Jeff and Fr David and a few other clerics participating on this forum. You owe him an apology.

 

[SnowRose]

contact thunderbirdhack AT gmail . com, he did a good job with the hacking of his cell phone and I got all I wanted as proof.

Lady, you hacked his phone?
You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself, you have absolutely no reason for happiness and in some countries what you did is a serious crime.
I had a bit of sympathy for your situation but no more.

The two of you deserve each other.

 

[Rozellelily]

Even if someone may just go because they see it as “just” raunchy fun, they still need to consider that they are financially supporting the sex/body objectifying trade.
I’m a woman and I don’t think that male strip shows are right either.
Going along to these types of things also encourages that mentality of lust and objectification in friends and in society in general even if that person themselves doesn’t feel any lust towards the “performer”.
It does nothing positive for society or families.
It can sometimes be hard to not go along with these things in a society where it is encouraged and normalised (eg:movies like Magic Mike) but we need to consider would Jesus go to these?
Jesus did eat/associate with sinners but I don’t think He would have been in the audience cheering them (the strippers) on,leering or screaming take it off etc.

 

[Rozellelily]

The OP’s situation is one of the reasons why I’m a fence sitter about the Catholic faith.
I can’t agree with the Church’s teachings that a person in this type of situation only has the choice of either forgiving the spouse and staying with them or separating and not being “allowed” to remarry someone else (even be referrd to as an adulterer etc).
I find it hard to gather why a woman would be “forced” (ie:denied love elsewhere) to stay with a man of poor character or if she civilly divorces and remarries that she would be considered more an adulterer than he!
Ie:he that went to a strip club while being married and put his leery eyes and/or hands on a gyrating naked woman.
He that lied and betrayed his wife.
He that shattered her trust and possibly her self esteem and self worth too (if she felt she couldn’t measure up to strippers looks or big breast etc).
This to me seems like an injustice.

I understand a wife staying in the case where a guy may just be a “follower” to his friends and not actually “cared” regarding the strippers themselves because perhaps all she has to deal with there is his lack of strength/lack of courage but in many other cases,the guy simply has a poor character and secretly (or not so secretly) thinks that it’s not such a big deal going to strip clubs and normalises it.
Men like this rarely change,from what I’ve seen.
Why would a marriage like this be considered a valid marriage (which can’t be annulled) when in reality she/wife may have been given a “bait and switch”?
Ie:with him acting like he had good character before getting married and then true character came out after marriage.

I would never stay married to a man like this and especially more so if he was touching the strippers body/her gyrating on him or whatever.
The Catholic Church in their definition may not consider this as adultery because there was no (ahem) physical penetration involved but to me it is adultery because I don’t think adultery should be only purely defined by which “physical bits go where” but also by how a certain “act” affected the wife (or husband) mentally and emotionally.

 

[kptrs]

Jesus did eat/associate with sinners but I don’t think He would have been in the audience cheering them (the strippers) on,leering or screaming take it off etc.

Jesus associated with sinners whose hearts were turning towards God and what is right. Saint Mary Magdalene, for instance, repented of her sin of prostitution and then became a follower of Jesus. After she became a disciple she stopped committing the sin of prostitution. Saint Matthew stopped being a tax collector after he decided to follow Christ. Same with Zacchaes the tax collector. Even though these people had committed grave sins, Jesus knew that in their hearts they wanted to repent and follow Him. And they did. The key thing is they wanted to follow Jesus and were willing to give up their sinful lifestyles in order to be His disciples.

On the other hand, another Bible story tells us how a rich man asked Jesus what he needed to do to attain salvation. Jesus tells him, “Give away everything you own to the poor.” The man turns and walks away because he’s not willing to do that. He’s not willing to turn from his sinful life, and so Jesus lets him leave and does not go after him or try to convince him to stay.

God cannot make anyone repent or follow Him — if He did, we wouldn’t have free will.

 

[pensmama87]

Saint Mary Magdalene, for instance, repented of her sin of prostitution and then became a follower of Jesus. After she became a disciple she stopped committing the sin of prostitution

It’s not certain that St. Mary Magdalene and the prostitute were the same woman, though your broader point is absolutely correct. Jesus associated with sinners, but told them to “sin no more.”

 

[Rozellelily]

Yes.Thanks.

 

[pensmama87]

I was confused by that whole side issue of annulment too on this thread, because my understanding was that the issue was NOT whether or not the fiance had committed “adultery,” but that he withheld information that could have affected the OP’s decision to marry him.

I agree that these situations are incredibly difficult. That is one reason that the Church has the “hoops” it does before marriage - to ensure that couples are, in fact, going into marriage understanding what they are doing and that they are prepared to the extent possible. If one party is OK with lying to the other, that is a huge, huge red flag.

 

[1ke]

I find it hard to gather why a woman would be “forced” (ie:denied love elsewhere) to stay with a man of poor character

Marriage is permanent. We enter the covenant with our spouse and God. We are called to be faithful to that covenant.

People disappoint us, but we are called to forgive and to love.

No one is “denied love elsewhere”. It is wrong to seek intimacy elsewhere because you freely made a vow to forsake all others. Not only when they please you. Not only when they are holy. As long as you both live.

 

[kptrs]

I can’t agree with the Church’s teachings that a person in this type of situation only has the choice of either forgiving the spouse and staying with them or separating and not being “allowed” to remarry someone else (even be referrd to as an adulterer etc).

It’s a difficult teaching to accept, I do agree. But the hard truth (and the truth is often hard) is that God designed marriage to be permanent. The two become one, and what God joins man must not divide. Jesus Himself explicitly stated that whoever divorces and marries another commits adultery. That’s why individuals preparing for marriage must do all they can to discern whether the commitment they are considering making is one they are going to be able to keep for life.

The Church, in its mercy, does grant annulments if it is determined that a valid marriage never existed. I don’t know the actual statistics, but it seems to me that the Church is generous in granting annulments. In my own circle of friends/family, I know of at least three people who were granted annulments and are now happily remarried in the Church. I know even more who were granted annulments and have not yet remarried but are free to do so if they wish. But if a marriage is determined to be valid, then it cannot be dissolved. This is not the Church’s “rule”, it’s God’s design from the beginning of time.

 

[Rozellelily]

I understand the Catholic Churches teaching but it’s something that I personally can’t accept.
I don’t like divorce culture and do believe in marriage being forever in all other cases except for “something sexual” outside the marriage and to me that includes visiting strip clubs.
I understand that all humans are flawed including myself and that we should forgive others/each other but I couldn’t stay married to a man with that type of character.
Maybe you would,but I wouldn’t.
I think a wife (or husband if shoe on other foot) deserves more than that and to be respected.

I don’t know if im being cynical or realistic,but except for the rare exception, I rarely see men like this changing character.
All too often I read/hear about men who say sorry,their wife eventually trusts them again only for the husband to then go and do it again.
After a few of these “cycles” you read the wife finally has enough and seeks a civil divorce or church annulment.
I’m not 100% sure if it really is wise to build trust again for a husband who has shown no evidence of internal change of character/character growth.

A person may have freely made a vow,but what in the instance where they would not have made that vow if they knew the full extend of the husband’s character?

 

[AdamP88]

You explicitly insulted Deacon Jeff, actually calling into question if he was a Deacon, and then when someone defends him you say it is nitpicking. We are blessed to have Deacon Jeff and Fr David and a few other clerics participating on this forum. You owe him an apology.

It is nitpicking. I never said it was adultery to go to the strip club. But it was infedility. Christ does say as well that lust is commiting adultery in the heart.

 

[Mi_Rose]

Deacon Jeff is clergy and deserves respect because of that.
Word have specific meanings in canon law which may not be the same as in everyday use. Adultery and infidelity mean sexual relations outside of marriage by a married person,nothing more nothng less. An annulment may be granted if there is no intention toward fidelity. Going to strip clubs does not count. Nitpicky maybe but canon law is like that.
That said I think it is skeevy behavior. My husband dd it once. He told me. I was more astonished than angry but I was upset and he never did it again.

 

[kptrs]

A person may have freely made a vow,but what in the instance where they would not have made that vow if they knew the full extend of the husband’s character?

If someone deliberately withheld information which would influence a prospective spouse’s decision to marry him/her, then that might — emphasis on MIGHT — be a case for annulment. As I said in my earlier post, the Church, in its mercy, does grant annulments if it can be determined that a marriage is invalid. Not having all pertinent information at the time of making the decision to marry someone MIGHT be grounds for deeming a marriage invalid.

Of course, we anonymous forum posters cannot make statements about whether that is the case for the OP of this thread.

 

[TheLittleLady]

do believe in marriage being forever in all other cases except for “something sexual” outside the marriage and to me that includes visiting strip clubs.

Before you decide to enter matrimony, discuss this belief with your pastor. If this is your true belief, that marriage is until death unless there is a sexual sin, you would not be able to consent to a Catholic marriage.

It is troubling how we have lost the idea of permanence of marriage.

 

[kptrs]

It is nitpicking. I never said it was adultery to go to the strip club. But it was infedility. Christ does say as well that lust is commiting adultery in the heart.

I do agree with you that infidelity encompasses more than adultery, even if the terms are technically one and the same. @(name removed by moderator) posted again and acknowledged this. He also acknowledged that he had spoken ambiguously. His original statement was in response to the posters who were saying the OP had grounds for annulment based on infidelity. Deacon Jeff was correct in saying that what the OP’s husband did does not necessarily constitute grounds for annulment, and that said posters should not be making such statements.

Once again, I do agree with you that infidelity is more than adultery. Respectfully, though, I think you spoke inappropriately to a member of the clergy.

 

[teddy1]

This seems extremely overblown. For example, some friends and I just put on a bachelor party, and sure the fiancé gave us rules, but what she didn’t understand was this was our last hoorah as men. Now that I’m in my thirties I am seeing friends left and right get married, but I don’t know, personally if my wife got upset with me for having strippers at a BACHELORS party, I would be pretty angry.

You’re obviously upset, you need to deal with that yourself and let go of that pointless angst. Hope you can work through it.