Husband Still Doesn't Want Kids

[Harmony1988]

… and I never referred to it (or thought of it) as a business transaction. So I hope you get over it. I surely don’t see your point.

Erm, yes, it’s a ‘figure of speech’, I was referring to the manner of which most people were speaking here.

Contact the Canon Lawyers
Consult the Tribunals

What’s next, give out the predicted Quarter 2 profit earnings?
I don’t currently care if you see my point or not, this argument is over, back to the thread at hand.

 

[catharina]

Erm, yes, it’s a ‘figure of speech’, I was referring to the manner of which most people were speaking here.

Contact the Canon Lawyers
Consult the Tribunals

What’s next, give out the predicted Quarter 2 profit earnings?
I don’t currently care if you see my point or not, this argument is over, back to the thread at hand.

Fine, you agree. See the Marriage Tribunal. Maybe you’re a bit hypersensitive since I can think of nothing I said that could have set you off. (I didn’t know there was an “argument.”)

 

[GirlDawg777]

I don’t quite know if I am ready to call it quits just yet. Maybe I was just tired and frustrated last night. But the thing is, he has so many good qualities. I constantly hear from other wives how their husbands never want to spend time with them, and are always doing something else. Mine is quite the opposite.

For years now, every weekend and holiday is filled with traveling, flying to parts of the US ect. He specializes in teaching prescribed burning for forestry, so he travels all over the US and the world. He got into Skiing, snowboarding, surfing, and even has his pilot’s license. We would fly to Tennessee to the mountains just for a weekend, just him and me. We would go out to Colorado, or Hawaii.

You can’t say he doesn’t spend time with me, or do things with me ect. I honestly do not have to beg him to go to the mall with me, really, I am not lying. It is just now all that seems fairly empty. One weekend for me blends with another. He however, loves to be outside, travel, and see and do new things. I am guessing that having a child would seriously hamper that for him.

I asked him today why he was so against it, and all he replied was that I knew how he felt, and that he was not going to let children interfere with what he wanted to do in life.

I have read on the internet that more than half of men that go to “counseling” for vasectomies never actually follow through with it because of the usual 30 day waiting period. They usually get distracted, or just forget and would have to undergo another “counseling session”. The urologist would not even let him make his appointment while he was there, and he had to actually call back the next day and do it. But he did do it, which leads me to believe he is serious about it.

I get responses in thirds. One third say that if I did get pregnant, he would change his tune and become the world’s best dad. One third say I should in no way get pregnant because he might perceive it as me having “tricked” him. One third say that he may hold out with sex for another 30 days until the vasectomy, and another 30 days until all sperm are gone.

Tell me this too: They recommend “frequent masturbation to expedite the removal of viable sperm after vasectomy”. Am I going to have to deal with that too? I know he masturbates, but I haven’t caught him in the act yet. It is just kind of sickening that he will stoop to such a level, rather than being intimate with me. For a while after I stopped BC, he used condoms, but my priest informed me that I could not participate because it requires my consent for what goes inside me.

 

[rayne89]

For a while after I stopped BC, he used condoms, but my priest informed me that I could not participate because it requires my consent for what goes inside me.

This is not the churches teaching in this regard.Please see the links to the Apologists forum.

You need to know that the Church does allow you to engage in sexual relations with a spouse who is using birth control. The dissenting spouse must be the one who is using it and not you. Also you must continue to educate and encourage the spouse according to the Church’s teachings on this matter.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=135215&highlight=condoms

A spouse whose spouse insists on contraception may licitly engage in marital relations for the sake of preserving the marriage. The non-contracepting spouse may not use contraception herself, but may accept the fact that her husband is determined to use it himself. The non-contracepting spouse should continue to pray for the other’s conversion and, where appropriate, educate the contracepting spouse about the moral and health dangers associated with contraception.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=22043&highlight=birth+control

 

[Gizmo]

For years now, every weekend and holiday is filled with traveling, flying to parts of the US ect. He specializes in teaching prescribed burning for forestry, so he travels all over the US and the world. He got into Skiing, snowboarding, surfing, and even has his pilot’s license. We would fly to Tennessee to the mountains just for a weekend, just him and me. We would go out to Colorado, or Hawaii.

I asked him today why he was so against it, and all he replied was that I knew how he felt, and that he was not going to let children interfere with what he wanted to do in life.

It’s too bad that he feels that way. I think that it is unfortunate that he is that against having a family. Marriage, for the most part, is about having a family. If you take that away, you have taken away such an integral part of what being married is all about. I am sure traveling around the world is great but it should not be seen as consolation prize because of his refusal to have kids.

Sounds to me like he is most concerned with his life and his prerogatives - even to the point of not living out the vocation of marriage that he entered into with you. Spending time with you and taking you all over the world on trips is not enough - is it?

 

[catharina]

Again, the question: is this a Sacramental marriage? If he has NEVER agreed to have children then I doubt that it is. You need to make an appt with the Marriage Tribunal in your diocese if you think that maybe you want a marriage with this man.

As things are, I’d be surprised if a canon lawyer would call your union a Sacramental marriage (assuming you report everything as you did here).

 

[magic_stick]

Same thing with me! My husband doesn’t want kids either. Well, he says he does and he doesn’t. Sometimes he says he doesn’t then sometimes he says he “does but doesn’t” if that makes sense. Anyway, he thinks he is too old…ect…ect…ect…) But the funny thing about it is that before we got married, I didn’t want kids at all and he did. This is before coming back to the church by the way. A part of me still doesn’t want kids though and I wish I could change that but the thing is, I am getting older also so it’s hard to think “what if”. . Plus, I just came back to the church so maybe I am not fully ready to be back?..

I talked to my priest about it and he said take one thing at a time and god will lead the way. Not sure if he gave me a good answer or not.

Oh, the kicker here is that my husband thinks I would make a terrible mother, hmmm. I have to admit, when I think about it, he has a good point. Maybe he’s right.

 

[kycanonist]

Okay… I just need a little clarification…

Why did you even have a radical sanation to begin with? I mean, you were Baptist when you had your first ceremony, right? What was you spouse? Was he Catholic and just not practicing?

And then my question would be, why did your diocese let you become Catholic if you were in an invalid marriage and could not receive communion? Or was the sanation before you came into the Church?

If you were both non-Catholic and free to marry when you had your first ceremony, then it created a valid and binding union and there was no need for a convalidation or a radical sanation. And if your spouse is Catholic and was at the first ceremony, then radical sanations really aren’t supposed to be used this way… They are supposed to be used when the non-Catholic spouse refuses to go through a new ceremony to create a valid marriage and the union is already stable… which is questionable here, to be honest.

In order to create a valid marriage, between two non-Catholics/a Catholic and a non-Catholic/two Catholics, one must be open to the sexual relationship that can produce children. If your spouse has been excluding children from the beginning, and you stated that this is true by the fact that he would only marry you if you promised to exclude the possibility of children, then it is likely that he simulated his consent with an intention *contra bonum prolis *when you attempted marriage. (c. 1101)

Of course, all of this would have to be proven in the Tribunal Court proceedings… because at this point you have a union that is presumed valid until proven otherwise as per c. 1060.

Ultimately, I’d need to know why you even had the radical sanation to begin with… From what you have given us by way of information, it seems like you did not need that… Do you have paperwork that says this is what you had?

 

[GirlDawg777]

If you were both non-Catholic and free to marry when you had your first ceremony, then it created a valid and binding union and there was no need for a convalidation or a radical sanation. And if your spouse is Catholic and was at the first ceremony, then radical sanations really aren’t supposed to be used this way… They are supposed to be used when the non-Catholic spouse refuses to go through a new ceremony to create a valid marriage and the union is already stable… which is questionable here, to be honest.

This is the case. The only reason we had a ceremony in a Baptist Church was to get my parents off my back. This was before I ever became Catholic. Secondly, my husband has never been baptized, at all. His parents followed Wicca.

What I was told is the the Church presumes a marriage to be valid until proven otherwise, but the fact that he was not baptized made it much more complicated. I had been baptized in a Baptist Church. After I became Catholic, I then sought to have the Marriage convalidated. He refused to even speak to a priest, so the discussion of children never, ever came up from his point. I understood the “open to life” as never ever even considering an abortion for pregnancy, which I *never *would.

From all your responses, it looks like I did things out of order and made a mess! Maybe my Parish realized I shouldn’t have gone through RCIA without having the marriage convalidated? What I was told that is if I vowed to adhere to the Church’s teachings, my marriage could be properly blessed since it had been performed in a Christian Church (Baptist). I think somewhere, somebody made a mistake. I don’t remember everything back then, as it was quite a whirlwind of learning and excitement.

 

[catharina]

This is the case. The only reason we had a ceremony in a Baptist Church was to get my parents off my back. This was before I ever became Catholic. Secondly, my husband has never been baptized, at all. His parents followed Wicca.

What I was told is the the Church presumes a marriage to be valid until proven otherwise, but the fact that he was not baptized made it much more complicated. I had been baptized in a Baptist Church. After I became Catholic, I then sought to have the Marriage convalidated. He refused to even speak to a priest, so the discussion of children never, ever came up from his point. **I understood the “open to life” as never ever even considering an abortion for pregnancy, which I *never ***would.

From all your responses, it looks like I did things out of order and made a mess! Maybe my Parish realized I shouldn’t have gone through RCIA without having the marriage convalidated? What I was told that is if I vowed to adhere to the Church’s teachings, my marriage could be properly blessed since it had been performed in a Christian Church (Baptist). I think somewhere, somebody made a mistake. I don’t remember everything back then, as it was quite a whirlwind of learning and excitement.

If you now understand “open to life” as a requirement that both spouses are willling to accept procreation as a function of marriage (rather than a repudiation of abortion only) then you’re beginning to get the picture. You need to see your Marriage Tribunal.

 

[Bert68]

Divorce should never be an option. Trust in God, even to the point of stepping into the deep. We love you

 

[catharina]

Divoece is irrelevant if the OP is not in a Sacramental marriage.

 

[Magickman]

I could have been the husband who didn’t want kids. That was how I felt, that being a parent was not my calling.

Rather than marry, though, and dictate a childless life to my spouse, I abstained from matrimony, and remained childless the old fashioned way, by prolonged bachelorhood.

Perhaps men who are strongly opposed to having children, might better remain single, than enter a marriage and impose their anti-child agenda upon an innocent woman.

Motherhood is a noble vocation, which ought not be denied a fertile married woman.

The lesson of all this, as I understand it, is for a couple contemplating marriage to share basic values and beliefs about family life, in order that their marriage be blessed and fruitfull.

 

[magic_stick]

Perhaps men who are strongly opposed to having children, might better remain single, than enter a marriage and impose their anti-child agenda upon an innocent woman.

This is why it should be discussed before getting married imo

But then again, people can change their minds after marriage too. Like with my husband, he wanted children before we got married and I didn’t want children, now after getting married, he doesn’t want any and I am unsure at this point what I want. Like I do and I don’t want kids, but I am okay with it either way. (I wasn’t back to the church until recently, so I discussed this with my priest and he said let god lead the way. To be honest, I am not sure if I am ready to be back to the church because of my views on having children are not clear. My priest is aware, I told him everything.)

Nice screen name by the way

 

[kycanonist]

Okay, I still do not understand why you had to have any sort of radical sanation or convalidation or anything…

You were both non-Catholic. You were not required to follow canonical form. This was the first marriage for both of you. When you had your wedding in the Baptist church, you became validly married. You did not have to do anything else. This is basic canon law on marriage 101 type stuff. Any priest who made you go through this was seriously mistaken in what was going on.

Your marriage was presumed valid from the beginning whether your spouse was baptized or not.

Deal is, you had a valid but non-sacramental marriage. You still have a valid but non-sacramental marriage, even after you became Catholic, because HE isn’t baptized. If you were baptized, then it doesn’t matter. You both have to be baptized in order to have a sacramental marriage. Where you got married is completely irrelevant unless one or both of you is Catholic. Since neither of you were Catholic at the time of the first wedding, your Baptist ceremony was sufficient to create a valid marriage. Nothing else needed to be done.

So, what I’m telling you is ignore the radical sanation. It means nothing.

When and if a Tribunal were to examine this marriage, it would be looking at the time before the Baptist ceremony and at the Baptist ceremony itself. That is what the declaration of nullity process does. It looks at the consent.

Here are a couple of articles that I’ve written on annulments that might be of some clarification:

Do I need an annulment?

Isn’t it just a Catholic rubber stamp on divorce?

Divorce should never be an option. Trust in God, even to the point of stepping into the deep. We love you

And to be perfectly honest, I think that statement is a load of … well… doggie doo-doo!

As a judge on matrimonial cases, I’ve seen where spouses and children suffer HORRENDOUS abuse at the hands of some sick and twisted individuals and the only reason that they stayed was because someone like this pp made a statement like that to them! That is just sick and wrong. To say that divorce is NEVER an option is just a straight out lie from the pits of Hell in my personal opinion.

I do not believe that the sacrament of marriage is meant to be a reflection of the pits of Hell.

Marriage is a partnership of life and love and a sacrament is a visible sign of God’s love in the world. Therefore, if marriage is a sacrament, then a partnership of life and love IS a visible sign of God’s love in the world. Where does someone threatening to kill you or your children fall into that equation?

Honestly… I think some ppl just like to think in the most simplistic of terms in order to feel better about their personal piety.

 

[Bert68]

And to be perfectly honest, I think that statement is a load of … well… doggie doo-doo!

As a judge on matrimonial cases, I’ve seen where spouses and children suffer HORRENDOUS abuse at the hands of some sick and twisted individuals and the only reason that they stayed was because someone like this pp made a statement like that to them! That is just sick and wrong. To say that divorce is NEVER an option is just a straight out lie from the pits of Hell in my personal opinion.

I do not believe that the sacrament of marriage is meant to be a reflection of the pits of Hell.

Marriage is a partnership of life and love and a sacrament is a visible sign of God’s love in the world. Therefore, if marriage is a sacrament, then a partnership of life and love IS a visible sign of God’s love in the world. Where does someone threatening to kill you or your children fall into that equation?

Honestly… I think some ppl just like to think in the most simplistic of terms in order to feel better about their personal piety.

Be nice. Be Catholic. Give gentle reasoning. Don’t take it personally.

 

[Ana]

Divorce should never be an option. Trust in God, even to the point of stepping into the deep. We love you

I find this statement to be very misleading and detrimental for someone reading who may be in dangerous and confusing circumstances.

Yes, we should trust God. And step into the deep. Sometimes that means divorce (not necessarily for the OP).

To the OP, I am VERY VERY sorry for your circumstances. Bearing a child is truly a gift. To be co-creators with God! Not even the Angels can boast of such a treasure! Your desire is strong and it is God-given. Your husband is being very selfish and self-centered and needs much prayer. If he grew up in a Wiccan household, then I would think spiritual warfare prayers are ABSOLUTELY necessary.

His words saying that he doesn’t want a child interfering with what HE WANTS to do. Including the fact, that YOU WANT children isn’t to interfere with what HE WANTS.

What does GOD WANT? He wants you to love Him and to be the bearer of His Love. That can mean many things. Gods voice is a whisper, and during this emotionally charged time it can be difficult to hear His Voice.

Focus on God’s Love for you. Bring your troubles to Him in the Blessed Sacrament, and just sit and be still. Allow Him to gently uphold you and strengthen you. If you love your husband with God’s love, healing will happen. In ways you could never predict or expect. That could mean so many things, and whether to leave or stay will never be right unless you are with Him. Seek Him and you will find your way.

In the meantime, Rejoice! For you have found the Truth! Many people have desired to see what you see, and have not. Be excited and hopeful for the blessings that are sure to come your way, because you have found Him, and in finding Him we find the cross. Now you have found your treasure. You will see, He will bless you. Trust Him.

 

[kycanonist]

I wasn’t taking anything personally. I was just saying that a simplistic view of the theology of the Church on marriage is ignorant and it can be critically damaging to people who are in situations where the Church would never approve of them staying.

To paint all marriage with such a broad brush makes one no different than non-Catholics who call anything and everything marriage. As Catholics we have a defined theology of marriage and we do not call the lowest common denominator “marriage.”

Back to the question at hand…

I think the OP should consider the following:

• it is immoral to deceive your spouse into a pregnancy that he may not want; to automatically assume that his mind will change once a baby is around is presumptuous at best and dangerous at worst… you have no idea how he will truly react, and do you really want to be left alone with a baby that he has abandoned when he walks away from you for “breaking the agreement”?
• I would say that the direction to go at this time is to straight up sit down with him, preferably with a neutral third party present - like a priest or therapist - and tell him that you want to have a child. You have a natural right to a relationship that is open to the possibility of children. If he denies you that right, then you are not being permitted to live out your vocation of marriage.
• if he is non-baptized, then this would be a marriage that can be dissolved by the Holy Father; this would be a priviledge case and it is clear that you would qualifty to file given that his refusal to have children would be the cause of the breakdown of the union. If you could prove his non-baptism, like his being willing to testify to the fact that he had never been baptized and that he does not want children and never wanted them and that it was a condition of the marriage, then this would make a strong case to Rome.

Ultimately, it all comes down to you having to ask to exercise your natural right in marriage. You cannot just presume anything. You cannot presume that he will say “no” to you, but you also cannot presume that he will automatically be okay with you being pregnant if he is somehow tricked into it. In fact, he might be even more upset if that is the case.

Maybe what you need to do is ask him to take an NFP class with you. Tell him that you are tired of having drug companies control your body and that you want to have control over your own fertility. He might buy into that one. That way, he can be exposed to the science of NFP and the teachings of the Church regarding marriage and openness to children. I’d contact ccli.org to find a teaching couple near you.

Ultimately, you have to exhaust all of your options here… You really do have to sit down with him and tell him that you want children. You could explain that marriage is supposed to be about giving yourself 100% to each other and if you are not open to the possibility of children, then you are not giving yourselves completely and totally to each other. You are basically saying “I give all of myself to you except this - my fertility. You can’t have that” and that is not the type of marriage you want. You want to share yourself with him completely and totally and you want the same from him.

I think that will give you clarity… Then, if he still refuses, you have to decide if having children and being open to children in your marriage is truly that important to you. If you can live without ever having a love that is so overwhelming that it has to express itself in another person, aka a new baby, then that is your choice as an adult. If it’s not something you can live with, then you have your answer there.

 

[Ana]

Oh yes, when my husband was not open to having children, I prayed to Our Gentle Mother. She has a way of softening, even the hardest of hearts!

Tools of the trade:
Miraculous Medal (Hid it in hubbys truck … hee …hee)
Green Scapular (I put one under my hubby’s side of the bed)
Holy water (sprinkled around the house and esp. on the bed )
Blessed salt (I cooked with it)
Neverending novena to St. Joseph ( I just kept saying it )
MANY MANY spiritual warfare prayers (these really stirred things up, and requires perseverance and prayer support)

I was a sly sucker and did all of this in secret.

Oh and I removed ALL reading materials from the bathroom, except The Catholic Church has the Answer booklet on the back of the potty. Then I pretended I didn’t hear him when he hollered for me.

Things got VERY worse, but when the dust cleared, my husband said that he wanted to convert (I passed out) When I came to, he then started to cry and said he wanted St. Joseph to be his patron saint (I passed out again.)

When his RCIA instructor found out the things I had done, he whistled, shook his head and looked at my husband and said,“You were toast, you didn’t even have a chance.” LOL

I pray that you’re husband may be enlightened as well. That would be wonderful, because it sounds like you really love him. But love on its own does not a sacramental marriage make. You really need to just stay close to God and see where He takes you. God bless.

 

[23eagle23]

WOW just WOW

I disagree with just about every post in this thread.

The Op husband was very up front wtih not wanting children, and even restated his intent before marriage, and after marriage…no secrets…

Why cant this be respected? God will works in many ways…not just thru marriage and children…

The Op Change, and just about every suggestion here to “FORCE” the OP’s husband to commit to her will…Saying its GOD will…Bottom line, no one here knows what God intention are with this marriage.

My advise to the OP is this, be a great catholic, enbrace GOD and show, thru your actions what a good catholic is, dont hammer religion,Priests, and NFP down you husbands throat. I beleive we will all know how that will end…

Maybe, just Maybe, your acts of kindness and holyness will change his mind…but then it again it may not…

Love him, love God and love others and miracles can happen…some are ones we never even thought of…

Pray, not for what you want, but what God wants…

You made a committment, now honor it…