Husband talking about the Greek Orthodox priesthood

[Alexander_Roman]

But Dr. How do they do so without becoming schismatic if they are not in communion with Rome?

If they come to believe that it is Rome that is heretical . . .

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I guess I should clear up a couple things! I am open to joining the church my husband is looking into. I could never have a different faith than my husband, nor raise my children in such a confusing environment. Thank God though that I have a husband who is endlessly patient with me and understands my hesitation. I admit at first I was completely against the idea of him becoming a priest (he has 3 bachelor degrees, english, classics and greek/latin; our plans were for him to pursue teaching). But I have been praying over it and after a few months the idea doesn’t seem as scary anymore. If anything, I want to learn as much as I can about the faith and how the liturgy works.

And however you and your husband work it out (and that is between yourselves and God), I believe you are on the right tract to want to have one Faith in the family.

He is very lucky to have such a wonderful, understanding and keenly insightful wife as yourself.

I’m jealous . . . :sad_bye:

Alex

 

[lo_amo87]

Aw, thank you, Alex shaw:

 

[lo_amo87]

And thank you to everyone for all your knowledgable (name removed by moderator)ut!!!

 

[Rawb]

I know you didn’t mean to be mean. From your posts one can tell you’re the respectful sort . I just think that, in this one case, you might have spoken a bit lightly about what can be, for others, a very difficult and gut-wrenching transition. I don’t think you meant to imply that light-heartedness, which is why I think it surprised me and I commented at all.

Let it never be said that I meant to slander the good Patriarch Alexios.

Going from RCism to Orthodoxy IS a big step, to be sure! Lots of guilt there, either direction one goes . . .

However, in my (OK, I’ll say it “considerable”) experience with Protestants who move from church to church looking not so much for the “true Faith” but for simple adherence to Biblical morality, I know they will drop their church when it becomes too liberal for them.

And the ones I know have changed churches at least, I will say, four times minimum.

It’s my own personal observation, I hope it is a fair one, but I realize I could be totally off - but do not mean to be . . . mean.

Cheers,

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I know you didn’t mean to be mean. From your posts one can tell you’re the respectful sort . I just think that, in this one case, you might have spoken a bit lightly about what can be, for others, a very difficult and gut-wrenching transition. I don’t think you meant to imply that light-heartedness, which is why I think it surprised me and I commented at all.

Let it never be said that I meant to slander the good Patriarch Alexios.

As you know, even with all my efforts to bring Christians into the fold of the EC and RC Churches, some have opted for Orthodoxy!

And before they did that, they did do some “church hopping.” That is what I was referring to. And also that they didn’t seem to mind it so much.

Were you once a member of my vagante jurisdiction?

Blessings!

• Alexios

 

[5Loaves]

Not necessarily. The fact that she does not say that her mother also received First Eucharist raises some doubt.

The Latin Church in the United States will confirm infants at the time of baptism if there is some medical condition that is grave. Also Churches in other countries, such as Mexico, routinely confirm infants in certain areas.

Because she said her mother, the person in question, was from a family that was “Ukrainian and faithfully practiced eastern orthodoxy” I had no reason to think the baptism and chrismation took place in the Latin Church. It is true that the circumstances you mention do include confirmation/chrismation in the Latin Church.

 

[Rawb]

As you know, even with all my efforts to bring Christians into the fold of the EC and RC Churches, some have opted for Orthodoxy!

And before they did that, they did do some “church hopping.” That is what I was referring to. And also that they didn’t seem to mind it so much.

Were you once a member of my vagante jurisdiction?

Blessings!

• Alexios

LoL no, not I. I went from Evangelical → Roman Catholic (5 years ago) → Eastern Orthodox (on Pentecost this year). I suppose I’m one of those “church hoppers” you were talking about, but I can assure you leaving Catholicism was very difficult. I joined this board years ago before I was Confirmed, then left for a while, and when I returned recently I was already an Orthodox Catechumen. Never fell under any Eastern Catholic jurisdictions.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Because she said her mother, the person in question, was from a family that was “Ukrainian and faithfully practiced eastern orthodoxy” I had no reason to think the baptism and chrismation took place in the Latin Church. It is true that the circumstances you mention do include confirmation/chrismation in the Latin Church.

Yes, I did miss that. I apologize.

 

[5Loaves]

There we go, now we have more information.

Church membership follows the father, so your mother was/is an eastern Catholic.

Your Church membership would depend on your father, unless he was not Catholic, then you would officially be a member of the same eastern Catholic Church as your mother and your grandfather.

That is unless any official Church membership changes were made.

Well my** parents married in a Roman Catholic church but my father was Lutheran **at the time and signed an agreement that he and my mother would raise us Roman Catholic, and indeed we were. And surprisingly enough, my grandfather had his funeral at a roman catholic church and was buried with my grandmother in a roman catholic graveyard which also housed all the ukrainian catholics on my grandfather’s side.

Surprise-- you’re are quite likely Ukrainian Catholic yourself. As Br. David notes the child of an Eastern Catholic father, or if the father is not Catholic then of an Eastern Catholic mother is automatically the Church of that parent.

It doesn’t matter that they married in the Latin Church (except that if an EC is involved the marriage must be witnessed and blessed by a priest, a deacon cannot validly officiate at a wedding which involves an EC), nor that children were baptized in the Latin Church.

Latin priests are well known for not knowing the canons of that cover an Eastern Catholic and for not following the proper form of recording in the Latin Church baptismal record that it was the baptism/chrismation of an Eastern Catholic, etc. One can spend decades living in the Latin Church, have the sacraments of baptism, and marriage, as you describe, in the Latin Church but that would not alter their continued enrollment in the EC Church, in this case you say it is Ukrainian.

Changing from one Catholic Church to another involves formal paper work and at least since the Second Vatican Council for an EC (Ukrainian) to transfer to the Latin Church would involve petitioning the Holy See because it is a transfer that is much discouraged. (Going from the Latin Church to an EC involves only the bishops, and the EC parish priest but also takes time and formal paperwork. Transfers in both directions have been known to be denied.)

 

[5Loaves]

LoL no, not I. I went from Evangelical → Roman Catholic (5 years ago) → Eastern Orthodox (on Pentecost this year). I suppose I’m one of those “church hoppers” you were talking about, but I can assure you leaving Catholicism was very difficult. I joined this board years ago before I was Confirmed, then left for a while, and when I returned recently I was already an Orthodox Catechumen. Never fell under any Eastern Catholic jurisdictions.

I’m glad you’re 'back" here at CAF. You bring an important perspective from your history.

 

[5Loaves]

The monk, as I’ve described, is of **the Benedictine order **(however his spiritual father belongs to the russian orthodoxy). He is currently misplaced as far as living in a monastery as the one in ohio he belonged to completely fell apart due to a negligent monastery leader. He is finishing his college degree here before he goes to texas to join one the monasteries down there. However, that monastery is not the same one that he and my husband are planning on visiting. Oh the confusion

This still tells me nothing about whether he or his spiritual father is in a truly Orthodox Church, or just one claiming to be Orthodox. Is he Orthodox Benedictine, or Catholic Benedictine? It’s confusing. Surely there is a* qualified spiritual father* in a stable environment, near where you live.

I will protest again, you are married only 3 months. Apparently this doesn’t concerns anyone else here but it does concern me. I think any qualified spiritual father would want to see you and your husband focusing on your first vocation, your marriage and family. It would be different if you both had been considering Orthodoxy and the priesthood during your courtship. From your description that isn’t the case. I think your husband ought to be looking at spiritual direction from married clergy, or from married lay qualified spiritual directors for this, from someone in a stable community near where you live.

It’s important to support your husband, but first you need to have established your marriage before such a radical change takes the forefront as it appears to be doing.

Believe me, I am not protesting because it might mean a change to Orthodoxy. I love Orthodoxy. It may be that you two are called to Orthodoxy. (Again, is this even a real Orthodox group they are dealing with?) I can’t see God’s plan to be upending a brand new marriage by shifting the focus in a new direction of yet another vocation.

I’ve seen clergy get excited when they see a possible vocation in the wings. This is your whole life. Slow down and get some more sage direction… A college age monk who lacks a stable community, as you’ve said he is, isn’t someone who I’d want driving this train, no matter how nice and genuine a guy he is.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I will protest again, you are married only 3 months. Apparently this doesn’t concerns anyone else here but it does concern me. I think any qualified spiritual father would want to see you and your husband focusing on your first vocation, your marriage and family. It would be different if you both had been considering Orthodoxy and the priesthood during your courtship. From your description that isn’t the case. I think your husband ought to be looking at spiritual direction from married clergy, or from married lay qualified spiritual directors for this, from someone in a stable community near where you live.

I will speak up. This concerns me as well.

Not only is your husband new to marriage, but I think you said he just entered the Catholic Church, so he is new there also.

No bishop in his right mind, Latin Catholic, Eastern Catholic, or Orthodox would consider such a candidate. Especially for the married priesthood. Most jurisdictions require that a neophyte (someone new to the Faith) be a fully practicing member for at least 3 years (I believe that is a canonical requirement in the Catholic Church) and at least 5 years married to show (prove) a faithful stable married life before they would consider one as a candidate for the priesthood or even the diaconate.

I believe your husband has put the cart before the horse. He has a lot to do and practice before his eyes should turn to this and if his spiritual father is also on such a journey then he needs to find a more stable one.

I believe that you must put your foot down on this issue. There is time enough in the future to entertain such a discernment, right now me must learn live the commitments he made to the marriage and to the Church (again if he just entered the Catholic Church (I may be off on this as I am not 100% positive but I thought I read this)) why would he be so quick on thinking to abandoning it? Doesn’t sound to good about keeping commitments to me.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I will speak up. This concerns me as well.

Not only is your husband new to marriage, but I think you said he just entered the Catholic Church, so he is new there also.

No bishop in his right mind, Latin Catholic, Eastern Catholic, or Orthodox would consider such a candidate. Especially for the married priesthood. Most jurisdictions require that a neophyte (someone new to the Faith) be a fully practicing member for at least 3 years (I believe that is a canonical requirement in the Catholic Church) and at least 5 years married to show (prove) a faithful stable married life before they would consider one as a candidate for the priesthood or even the diaconate.

I believe your husband has put the cart before the horse. He has a lot to do and practice before his eyes should turn to this and if his spiritual father is also on such a journey then he needs to find a more stable one.

I believe that you must put your foot down on this issue. There is time enough in the future to entertain such a discernment, right now me must learn live the commitments he made to the marriage and to the Church (again if he just entered the Catholic Church (I may be off on this as I am not 100% positive but I thought I read this)) why would he be so quick on thinking to abandoning it? Doesn’t sound to good about keeping commitments to me.

According to the canons of the Ukrainian Church, one has to be married only a year before being accepted for Ordination. Of course this would be a person who has been in the faith a while, probably a seminarian already for a couple of years.

 

[Poor_Soul]

If they come to believe that it is Rome that is heretical . . .

Alex

So your answer Dr. is they can’t and that if they move then they choose to be schismatic. I wonder if this issue is taken with the same light heartedness if one was EO moving to RC because their husband wanted to do so. Something tells me that since you believe the Roman Church is heretical that such a move would be a sin against the faith as it is the same in our Church.

 

[lo_amo87]

This still tells me nothing about whether he or his spiritual father is in a truly Orthodox Church, or just one claiming to be Orthodox. Is he Orthodox Benedictine, or Catholic Benedictine? It’s confusing. Surely there is a* qualified spiritual father* in a stable environment, near where you live.

I will protest again, you are married only 3 months. Apparently this doesn’t concerns anyone else here but it does concern me. I think any qualified spiritual father would want to see you and your husband focusing on your first vocation, your marriage and family. It would be different if you both had been considering Orthodoxy and the priesthood during your courtship. From your description that isn’t the case. I think your husband ought to be looking at spiritual direction from married clergy, or from married lay qualified spiritual directors for this, from someone in a stable community near where you live.

It’s important to support your husband, but first you need to have established your marriage before such a radical change takes the forefront as it appears to be doing.

Believe me, I am not protesting because it might mean a change to Orthodoxy. I love Orthodoxy. It may be that you two are called to Orthodoxy. (Again, is this even a real Orthodox group they are dealing with?) I can’t see God’s plan to be upending a brand new marriage by shifting the focus in a new direction of yet another vocation.

I’ve seen clergy get excited when they see a possible vocation in the wings. This is your whole life. Slow down and get some more sage direction… A college age monk who lacks a stable community, as you’ve said he is, isn’t someone who I’d want driving this train, no matter how nice and genuine a guy he is.

I’m sorry 5Loaves but I must take offense to some of this. Our friend has been close to our family for the last 5 years. He is orthodox benedictine and his spiritual father (located in another state) has been a part of the russian orthodoxy for 40 years.
Unfortunately, the monastery he was a part of in central ohio was a sham and the man who ran the place a fool and liar (and a whole host of unsavory characteristics), but who still has his hands in much of the orthodox community. So our friend cannot participate locally without running into this man.

I thank you for having concern about our marriage , but with all due respect, I don’t think you have the authority to know what God’s plan is I do take advice from our friend (who is in fact 30 and has been a part of the orthodox church for a decade and a monk for 6 years), not ‘some college age’ kid strutting around in a robe. He is the one trying to get us to contact the right people. He is not driving anything but being an educated support system. BUT. While he is a close friend, I’ve come to this board to receive opinions from other knowledgable people as well.

 

[lo_amo87]

I will speak up. This concerns me as well.

Not only is your husband new to marriage, but I think you said he just entered the Catholic Church, so he is new there also.

No bishop in his right mind, Latin Catholic, Eastern Catholic, or Orthodox would consider such a candidate. Especially for the married priesthood. Most jurisdictions require that a neophyte (someone new to the Faith) be a fully practicing member for at least 3 years (I believe that is a canonical requirement in the Catholic Church) and at least 5 years married to show (prove) a faithful stable married life before they would consider one as a candidate for the priesthood or even the diaconate.

I believe your husband has put the cart before the horse. He has a lot to do and practice before his eyes should turn to this and if his spiritual father is also on such a journey then he needs to find a more stable one.

I believe that you must put your foot down on this issue. There is time enough in the future to entertain such a discernment, right now me must learn live the commitments he made to the marriage and to the Church (again if he just entered the Catholic Church (I may be off on this as I am not 100% positive but I thought I read this)) why would he be so quick on thinking to abandoning it? Doesn’t sound to good about keeping commitments to me.

He converted to Catholicism 3 years ago this past easter. Also, I think I should make it clear that we’re not dropping everything to pursue this this very minute. I still have 3 years of schooling left (finishing my bachelors and pursuing a small technician degree) and most likely the seminary he would attend is in Boston or Texas, which, as I said, I still have to finish school so he wouldn’t even be able to begin his education until I’m finished with mine!

 

[Alexander_Roman]

So your answer Dr. is they can’t and that if they move then they choose to be schismatic. I wonder if this issue is taken with the same light heartedness if one was EO moving to RC because their husband wanted to do so. Something tells me that since you believe the Roman Church is heretical that such a move would be a sin against the faith as it is the same in our Church.

Well, they most certainly can and do move to become Orthodox.

The term “schismatic” has happily gone the way of the dinosaur. It is offensive not only to the Orthodox, but also to EC’s. I’ll tell you why.

When the Union of Brest came about, certain RC colonial forces (we don’t need to get into that) wanted to use religion to culturally assimilate their Ukrainian/Ruthenian subjects and so saw EC’s as only “half Catholics.”

They saw ECism as a bridge to “full (Latin) Catholicism” which is why Eastern traditions were deprecated and why real Latinization (in the sense of things imposed by force) occurred.

During a meeting between EC’s and Orthodox in the 17th century, the EC’s confirmed that they too are referred to as “schismatics” because they cross themselves and do everything else in the “Orthodox way.”

Our poets et al. often refer to the “Ukrianian schismatics” whether EC or Orthodox to underline this sad history of Roman Catholic colonial rule in E. Europe.

So you should really lose that term in a hurry. Rome never uses it.

On the other hand, you sound as if it is such a great thing for EC’s to be under Rome. Really? EC’s have had many martyrs and confessors for their union with Rome - and so what?

Rome takes the train that says “Eastern Catholic policy” but gets off the station that says, “Moscow Patriarchate.”

It is disgraceful and upsetting. Recently, Rome pulled the proverbial eagle’s rug out from under our Primate when he went there to ask for Rome to acknowledge our Patriarchate.

So if Rome defers to Moscow, the historical enemy of the UGCC, what is the big deal about being in union with what appears to be a joint “primatial See” of the first and third Romes?

If I wasn’t in union with Rome, I’d be less sinful in my thoughts about your Holy See!

So please stop being ridiculous about your “schismatics.”

Alex

 

[hazcompat]

If they come to believe that it is Rome that is heretical . . .

Alex

first council nice (nicea)

Let there be only four patriarchs in the whole world as there are four

writers of the Gospel, and four rivers, etc. And let there be a prince and
chief over them, the lord of the see of the Divine Peter at Rome, according
as the Apostles commanded. And after him the lord of the great Alexandria,
which is the see of Mark. And the third is the lord of Ephesus, which is
the see of John the Divine who speaks divine things. And the fourth and
last is my lord of Antioch, which is another see of Peter. And let all the
bishops be divided under the hands of these four patriarchs; and the
bishops of the little towns which are under the dominion of the great
cities let them be under the authority of these metropolitans. But let
every metropolitan of these great cities appoint the bishops of his
province, but let none of the bishops appoint him, for he is greater than
they. Therefore let every man know his own rank, and let him not usurp the
rank of another. And whosoever shall contradict this law which we have
established the Fathers of the Synod subject him to anathema.(2)

peace*

 

[Alexander_Roman]

The Orthodox have no problem with this at all.

They believe Rome has separated itself from the true Catholic Church via heresy.

According to the Orthodox Church, if Rome was to abjure its heresy, there could be one Church with the Pope as the first Bishop once again.

What is so difficult about that? We as Catholics don’t accept that, but there are those, including those of our own number, who do and who leave union with elder Rome.

If you are referring to my rant, I will tell you that Rome’s politicking with Orthodoxy is simply wrong and not in keeping with its ancient dignity.

You should send that reference to Cardinal Casper and ask him if he remembers reading it!

If you feel that it is OK for Rome to set policy on the EC’s with Moscow, then please show me where in ANY of the 21 Councils that is set down.

Otherwise, please join me in my rant.

Alex