Husband's Cousin is Marrying a Muslim Man

[Mount_Carmel]

Excuse me if this was answered but I did not read it in any of the post. My question is what are the children going to be raised as? Many couples do not take this question seriously until they have kids. You cannot be both a practicing Muslim and Catholic.

This was all addressed when the OP was first posted on the ‘Hindu marriage’ thread.

 

[MJJean]

Always suspect an opinion that took some “priest shopping” to obtain.

Op,
it sounds like she went priest shopping outside of the diocese probably because she might have been turned down inside the diocese but isn’t going to admit it to the thanksgiving dinner crowd.

I’d be willing to bet she told the diocesan (sp?) priest the whole story and got turned down, so she then went “priest shopping” to get the answers she wanted without being fully honest with those priests. Or maybe she presented the Muslim wedding as a done deal, no negotiation, and the priests agreed to a convalidation because there was no changing her mind and no other way for her to stay a Catholic in good standing.

If his family would be “uncomfortable” with the couple marrying under Catholic auspices, they will certainly be “uncomfortable” with future children being baptized, receiving First Communion, being confirmed, etc.

And what about those Sacraments and those future kids? Assuming the best case scenario and the kids are raised to know and understand the Catholic faith and to receive the Sacraments. How are they going to feel when it’s time to have First Communion and Confirmation without half their family coming to support them and celebrate with them? I am new to the Church, but every Sacrament I have seen seems to be a big deal in families with grandparents, Aunts, Uncles, and any number of cousins from both sides of the family coming to the occasion. I imagine the future kids of this union would be saddened and hurt if their paternal family isn’t there. Something to be considered.

I live in a city that borders the city with the largest population of Muslims outside of the Middle East. I have nothing against the people or their faith, but I have noticed a few things. One is that they take the religious education and training of children to be very serious and it is usually handled by the father and through his family. The other is that, when it comes to mixed marriages, the few I have seen all have the kids being raised Muslim even in cases where the mother objects. And the non-Muslim woman usually either converts or at least is asked to follow certain cultural and religious practices such as manner of dress and appropriate social behavior from the Muslim viewpoint. Which is different from a typical American viewpoint even among the moderate Muslims.

Lastly, am I the only one who thinks that the Muslim ceremony is the only one that counts in the eyes of the groom and his family? If they all had respect for the Catholic faith of the bride they would be willing to attend the ceremony and it would be within days of the Muslim ceremony instead of months apart. I think this is a not-so-subtle sign of what is to come. In fact, I doubt they (groom and his family) are taking the idea of a Catholic convalidation seriously at all as they probably don’t plan to really have one. Hence the very vague “several months after” plan.

 

[EasterJoy]

…One is that they take the religious education and training of children to be very serious and it is usually handled by the father and through his family. The other is that, when it comes to mixed marriages, the few I have seen all have the kids being raised Muslim even in cases where the mother objects. And the non-Muslim woman usually either converts or at least is asked to follow certain cultural and religious practices such as manner of dress and appropriate social behavior from the Muslim viewpoint. Which is different from a typical American viewpoint even among the moderate Muslims…

Alternatively, Muslim men are warned that non-Muslim wives often do not come around. When there is a divorce (for whatever reason), the children live with their mother and are typically not raised even faintly with a Muslim faith. It is also reported that some scholars contend that Muslim men ought to only consider marrying a non-Muslim women if they live in a preponderantly Muslim area. If they don’t have that societal influence on their children, the chances that their wife will truly convert or that their children will grow up to practice Islam when their mother doesn’t is not great.

The utter prohibition on Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men shows the root of the issue. Muslims assume that the father will make the decisions about the religious upbringing of the children.

 

[Xantippe]

MJJean said:

“Or maybe she presented the Muslim wedding as a done deal, no negotiation, and the priests agreed to a convalidation because there was no changing her mind and no other way for her to stay a Catholic in good standing.”

Very likely

 

[His_helpmeet]

Obviously, if your cousin chooses to go on this path, her marriage will not be valid. You are correct in that it would not be appropriate for your son to be a part of their wedding, nor would it be appropriate for you to attend this wedding if you know it is invalid.

To avoid family drama and uproar, you might just tell your cousin that something has come up and you will not be able to attend. This is not a lie - something DID come up; you found out that their marriage will not be valid. She just doesn’t need to know what the “something” is.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Easter Joy said:

"The bride’s confirmation sponsor definitely has the place to ask the bride if she realizes she is not allowed to marry anyone who will not allow her to raise her children Catholic, as a Muslim man most certainly is not. If he says that he is willing to do this, she needs to ask him say it in front of his relatives and religious leader in her presence, so that the couple can listen to their response to his plan, because the raising of the children will itself most certainly done right in front of them. If he will not do this, she must unfortunately assume that his promise is utterly false. Even if he does not mean to lie to her, if he won’t say it in front of those others, it must be assumed he does not have the courage and conviction to keep the promise. In that case, her marriage will not be valid. If he does do this, the chances are that they won’t be having an Islamic wedding, and probably not a marriage recognized as valid from the Islamic point of view.

“In other words: Let them choose a religion for their children, and let them be open about their choice to both families before marriage. The question is going to come up; it is better to have courage now than to suffer from having put off the day for courage until later.”

That’s all very good.

My reading of the Muslim fiance is that he is “moderate,” but that that will mean nothing in the face of family pressure from his side.

If his family would be “uncomfortable” with the couple marrying under Catholic auspices, they will certainly be “uncomfortable” with future children being baptized, receiving First Communion, being confirmed, etc. And she’s not going to have more leverage after they get married.

Of course, she herself may have a very tenuous connection to her Catholic faith at this point and may be thinking of eventually converting in the interests of family unity.

I think that this whole line of conversation is straying from the OP’s original question and is bordering on uncharitable. We cannot make these suppositions about this man based on his religion alone. You cannot say that he would do whatever his family says, because you don’t know him or them. My family is uncomfortable with many things that I do, and I do them anyway. My husband’s family is uncomfortable with almost everything about how we live, but did that mean we got married in the church? Heck no. Will their feelings prompt us to baptize our child and/or raise them in the Catholic faith. No. Making statements about this man’s honor and dignity when it comes to honoring commitments or supposing that because of his religion he will be a bad husband and turn over all control to his family is crazy, not founded on the facts that we have, and not helpful to the OP.

In all honesty, when it comes to the OP, how the woman and her fiance choose to handle their marriage and religious differences does not matter. All she can and should do is ascertain whether or not she can in good conscience allow her son to participate. I encourage her to sit down with the woman and politely say that she isn’t comfortable having her son participate unless everything is in line with church teaching. If it isn’t , she needs to pull her son out. If it is, then no worries. But I would rather have my family member just come to me and be upfront with a “Hey, I’m afraid I was put on the spot earlier at dinner, so I’d like to clarify. I can only allow my son to be your ring bearer if he won’t be participating in something that is against our faith. So unless your marriage will be valid and in line with church teaching, I’m afraid he can’t be a part of the wedding”. I would respect that a lot.

Now, if someone came to me and said “You need to have your fiance make XYZ promises in front of his parents so that you know you can trust him” I would flip. That is absolutely no one else’s concern whatsoever and if someone insinuated that my soon to be husband should not be fully trusted because of his religion, despite the fact that I am the one that knows who he is as a person, that would have a lasting impact on my relationship with that person.

 

[MJJean]

**Alternatively, Muslim men are warned that non-Muslim wives often do not come around. **When there is a divorce (for whatever reason), the children live with their mother and are typically not raised even faintly with a Muslim faith. It is also reported that some scholars contend that Muslim men ought to only consider marrying a non-Muslim women if they live in a preponderantly Muslim area. If they don’t have that societal influence on their children, the chances that their wife will truly convert or that their children will grow up to practice Islam when their mother doesn’t is not great.

The utter prohibition on Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men shows the root of the issue. Muslims assume that the father will make the decisions about the religious upbringing of the children.

The bolded really struck me. Engaged people often think “He/She’ll come around after we’re married.” I would hazard a guess that Muslim men aren’t any different than most people and there is good chance he and/or his family think they will be able to change the brides faith.

As to the part about the kids, parental kidnapping comes to mind. I don’t know the statistics, but Muslim men kidnapping their children so they can raise them both because they love them and because they believe having them raised Muslim is about saving their souls is not unheard of.

 

[MJJean]

BEL, I skipped quoting you because I have made enough walls of text today. But I would like to point out that the husband of the OP is the brides Sponsor. This marriage could very well lead her and her children away from the faith. It’s his duty to discuss these things with her. He didn’t come here and ask, but his wife did and she can bring up the concerns posted here for him to ponder and discuss.

Also, there are some substantial cultural differences. I can’t speak as to Muslims everywhere, but here there is a very large community and the people are pretty traditional when it comes to family matters. They simply don’t view the topic the same way most of us do. Family is paramount, faith is paramount, and families are extremely close and very involved with each others day to day lives and decision making. The family is also very involved in marriages and with the raising of each others children. It’s more common than not for multiple generations to share a home specifically so that grandmothers, mothers, aunts etc. can watch the children of those who work and this does include instruction in matters of faith, acceptable behavior, etc. And by multiple generations I mean grandparents, Aunts and Uncles, a few cousins, their spouses and some kids.

This might seem a bit strange and intrusive to some of us, but for those people it is just how things are and they think nothing of it. Sometimes that translates to a non-Muslim spouse being surprised by where and with whom they will live and how their lives will be conducted. The Muslim spouse sometimes conceals this information believing it will all work out and sometimes doesn’t even think to discuss it because it’s so common for them they assume everyone already knows.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

BEL, I skipped quoting you because I have made enough walls of text today. But I would like to point out that the husband of the OP is the brides Sponsor. It’s his duty to discuss these things with her.

Also, there are some substantial cultural differences. I can’t speak as to Muslims everywhere, but here there is a very large community and the people are pretty traditional when it comes to family matters. They simply don’t view the topic the same way most of us do. Family is paramount, faith is paramount, and families are extremely close and very involved with each others day to day lives and decision making. The family is also very involved in marriages and with the raising of each others children. It’s more common than not for multiple generations to share a home specifically so that grandmothers, mothers, aunts etc. can watch the children of those who work and this does include instruction in matters of faith, acceptable behavior, etc. And by multiple generations I mean grandparents, Aunts and Uncles, a few cousins, their spouses and some kids.

This might seem a bit strange and intrusive to some of us, but for those people it is just how things are and they think nothing of it. Sometimes that translates to a non-Muslim spouse being surprised by where and with whom they will live and how their lives will be conducted. The Muslim spouse sometimes conceals this information believing it will all work out and sometimes doesn’t even think to discuss it because it’s so common for them they assume everyone already knows.

You have absolutely no idea who this man is, what is relationship with his family is like, or what his living situation is.

Bringing up cautions about him kidnapping his future children, lying to his fiance, etc all on the grounds that he is Muslim is uncharitable, and frankly, bigoted. There are a lot of awful things that “are not unheard of” with Catholics too, some of them very ugly and stereotypical. I assume that you would not be kind about someone making all of those wild suppositions about your Catholic husband, would you?

All of these posts that insist he must be lying to his fiance or that his family has plans to change her are pretty off the wall, and from what the OP has written, there is no grounds to think those things.

Except of course, that he practices Islam instead of Christianity.

 

[MJJean]

You have absolutely no idea who this man is, what is relationship with his family is like, or what his living situation is.

Bringing up cautions about him kidnapping his future children, lying to his fiance, etc all on the grounds that he is Muslim is uncharitable, and frankly, bigoted. There are a lot of awful things that “are not unheard of” with Catholics too, some of them very ugly and stereotypical. I assume that you would not be kind about someone making all of those wild suppositions about your Catholic husband, would you?

All of these posts that insist he must be lying to his fiance or that his family has plans to change her are pretty off the wall, and from what the OP has written, there is no grounds to think those things.

Except of course, that he practices Islam instead of Christianity.

Oh, please don’t misunderstand. I am not saying he would ever do those things. He’s probably a pretty decent guy considering the brides family seems to like him and the bride is in love with him.

I’d think anyone a fool for not considering the what-if’s. If the bride considers the what-if’s and takes a look around, sees that her man is not that kind of guy, cool beans. Good luck because marriage ain’t easy.

Familial expectations aren’t limited to Muslims. Our area is pretty mixed racially and culturally. I haven’t met a single person who is married and their in-laws didn’t expect they would “come around” on one thing or another to keep the peace or blend in. Myself included as my background and my husbands background are very different. But when we’re talking traditions of different cultures it seems an awful lot of families think the adjustment will be all on the other side.

Parental kidnapping isn’t so uncommon. My ex (American with no ties to any other country) kidnapped our kids after the separation and before the divorce. It was 3 days of hell for me before I managed to get them back and the method I used was not exactly legal as it involved some very large and known to carry concealed relatives of mine. The police were virtually useless.

I also personally know socially or through my former jobs 3 other parents who have had their children kidnapped. Two Muslim-Christian marriages that broke up, the father had visitation over the weekend, and decided to abandon his home and business to go back to his country of origin or the country of his family’s origin with his children. The other was a Japanese woman married to an American man. Same story only they had split custody when she fled back to Japan with their child. (She was a dual citizen and their custody agreement was 50-50 physical and legal shared equally)

In the cases of the Muslims, the mothers haven’t seen their kids in years and only one has been allowed to speak to her kids over the phone and gets occasional photos and letters from her ex. The friend who had his ex take their child to Japan ended up getting nowhere through legal channels and decided to give up and move to Japan to be able to see his child. He’s a DJ by profession, moving to japan actually made his career, and he’s happy helping raise his daughter as much as the ex and her family will allow.

So, you can see why the OP’s mention of ties to Egypt and many visits there might make me think this is a possibility should the marriage fail.

Every family has drama and nutters. Some families have them with passports.

And, yes, I have come across some Catholic stereotypes that aren’t flattering at all. I think I handled them with grace. Some of them were in my step-dad’s family! My uncle actually got upset when I bought my Aunt a series of books I knew she’d like for Christmas one year because …get this…“reading gives women ideas and keeps them from doing their job of raising the kids and cleaning the house as God intended.” I really wish I was joking, but I ain’t. And my grandmother told me I failed as a human and a parent and that I lacked maternal instincts because I was not willing to have however many children God wanted to give me.

Oh, and as far as the possible living arrangements I am certainly not being critical. A lot of Hispanic and Muslim families live in a large communal home full of relatives in my area. I think it’s beautiful to see how close they are. Old folks are taken care of at home instead of going into a facility. Kids benefit from the wisdom of elders. Overly permissive parents are balanced out by other family members. Expenses and burdens are shared. Marriage issues are aired and the couple benefits from the guidance of elders who know whats really going on because they live there,too.But to an awful lot of Americans raised outside of those cultures it’s claustraphobic (sp?), restrictive, and miserable.

If the OP’s family member and her groom haven’t discussed the possibilities, they should. He may be assuming she’d be fine if they lived with his extended family. She may be assuming they’d live separately. He may assume discussing personal matters would be fine because, after all, it’s his family. She may not be ok with that level of disclosure and may not even be aware that he’d ever possibly do such a thing. Not to mention, for those in this area that are Muslim or Hispanic and live apart from family, the family does tend to be in and out of each others houses all. the. time. The groom may be assuming this is fine and the bride may be driven batty by the very idea.

 

[robwar]

I think we are going out on tangent here that none of us know about. Based on OP’s original post we do know this: her cousin in law is trying to marry a Muslim man, Op indicates that they are probably already having sex, she is obviously looking at priests outside her diocese in order to try and have a Catholic marriage as well as a Muslim marriage. It’s kinda obvious that she has compromised her faith in sleeping with him.
It isn’t a sin in Islam for a Muslim man to have sex with a non-muslim women out of marriage. Islam does not allow Muslim women to marry outside of Islam, only men and then it is expected that the Man will raise the children Muslim. There are just too many red flags here. In the book I mentioned in my early post “Till Faith do us Part”, the author who isn’t a Catholic or Christian did point out that the Catholic church does highly discourage Catholic women from marrying Muslim men. She has interviewed and research mixed faith marriages and found them to generally be less happy, more conflictual and the children confused and less likely to be involved in any faith. From the info given and looking at this at a distance and considering what Islam teaches about men and women, there isn’t much Op can do but pray and maybe give her the book i recommended to hopefully put some common sense in her head before she ends up trapped in an unhappy situation with children that will be prevented from being raised Catholic.

 

[severus68]

From the other thread (about a Catholic-Hindu wedding):

No, I mean that traditionally the official stance within Islam is that Muslim men are to allow their Christian or Jewish wives to practice their faith. Muslim men are allowed to marry* chaste *Jewish or Christian women, because in Islam it is assumed that children will be brought up in the faith of their fathers. No other marrying outside Islam is allowed–no Hindus, no agostics, no Buddhists, but only the two monotheistic religions that existed when Islam began, and absolutely no unchaste women. Although it is OK to marry a woman who has previously been married, it is not permissible to marry if the woman has been unchaste, even if the unchastity took the form of relations with the Muslim man who wants to marry her. Muslim women are not traditionally allowed to marry non-Muslim men at all. (Mind you, I do not intend to make any blanket statements about what all Muslims teach or that this is everything traditionally taught about mixed marriages, but only relate a limited amount of what is purportedly traditional.)

There really aren’t any religions that encourage marriages outside their faith, because the chances that the children will not be raised in the faith, probably with no real faith at all, are too high.

The bride’s confirmation sponsor definitely has the place to ask the bride if she realizes she is not allowed to marry anyone who will not allow her to raise her children Catholic, as a Muslim man most certainly is not. If he says that he is willing to do this, she needs to ask him say it in front of his relatives and religious leader in her presence, so that the couple can listen to their response to his plan, because the raising of the children will itself most certainly done right in front of them. If he will not do this, she must unfortunately assume that his promise is utterly false. Even if he does not mean to lie to her, if he won’t say it in front of those others, it must be assumed he does not have the courage and conviction to keep the promise. In that case, her marriage will not be valid. If he does do this, the chances are that they won’t be having an Islamic wedding, and probably not a marriage recognized as valid from the Islamic point of view.

In other words: Let them choose a religion for their children, and let them be open about their choice to both families before marriage. The question is going to come up; it is better to have courage now than to suffer from having put off the day for courage until later.

Good advice.

BTW Muslim women under Islamic law are not permitted to marry non-Muslim men. Muslim men are required under Islamic law to bring up his children Muslim. So, since he wants to be wed in a mosque ( a Muslim wedding creates a contract), it is likely he will want to bring up his children to be Muslim.

 

[Xantippe]

Blue Eyed Lady said:

“I think that this whole line of conversation is straying from the OP’s original question and is bordering on uncharitable. We cannot make these suppositions about this man based on his religion alone. You cannot say that he would do whatever his family says, because you don’t know him or them. My family is uncomfortable with many things that I do, and I do them anyway. My husband’s family is uncomfortable with almost everything about how we live, but did that mean we got married in the church? Heck no. Will their feelings prompt us to baptize our child and/or raise them in the Catholic faith. No. Making statements about this man’s honor and dignity when it comes to honoring commitments or supposing that because of his religion he will be a bad husband and turn over all control to his family is crazy, not founded on the facts that we have, and not helpful to the OP.”

We do know that the cousin-in-law has already decided to go with a canonically problematic wedding arrangement in order to avoid making her husband-to-be’s family uncomfortable. So, it looks like it’s not at all unfair to say that his family and his family’s traditions are exerting a fairly strong gravitational pull and that that gravitational pull will, with all likelihood, grow even more powerful as the years go by.

This may be very unfair to the cousin-in-law’s intended, but there are many, many examples of Western women who married a Muslim guy who seemed very Westernized and then discovered, after they’d married and had children and perhaps moved back to the old country, that the Westernization was only skin deep. That has happened so many times that it is most prudent to assume that that is a likely outcome.

nypost.com/2013/09/21/my-life-of-hell-in-an-afghan-harem/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Mahmoody

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debbie_Rodriguez

“In all honesty, when it comes to the OP, how the woman and her fiance choose to handle their marriage and religious differences does not matter.”

I think they’ll be very lucky if they are allowed to hash things out by themselves, but if they are, that’s really the best possible outcome.

“All she can and should do is ascertain whether or not she can in good conscience allow her son to participate. I encourage her to sit down with the woman and politely say that she isn’t comfortable having her son participate unless everything is in line with church teaching. If it isn’t , she needs to pull her son out. If it is, then no worries. But I would rather have my family member just come to me and be upfront with a “Hey, I’m afraid I was put on the spot earlier at dinner, so I’d like to clarify. I can only allow my son to be your ring bearer if he won’t be participating in something that is against our faith. So unless your marriage will be valid and in line with church teaching, I’m afraid he can’t be a part of the wedding”. I would respect that a lot.”

And that, dear BEL, is why you are an amazing person.

“Now, if someone came to me and said “You need to have your fiance make XYZ promises in front of his parents so that you know you can trust him” I would flip. That is absolutely no one else’s concern whatsoever and if someone insinuated that my soon to be husband should not be fully trusted because of his religion, despite the fact that I am the one that knows who he is as a person, that would have a lasting impact on my relationship with that person.”

You don’t really know who the person is until you marry them and have kids with them, and the Muslim case is particularly problematic, as there is a strong cultural assumption that children will be raised Muslim. By not doing that, the cousin-in-law’s future husband will be swimming against a very powerful cultural tide.

 

[severus68]

I concur. Islam not only teaches that Jesus Christ is not Jesus Christ, but that this man they call Issa bin Yosef will be given the task by their god, Allah, to rebuke and punish all Christians at the end of time. In Islam, Issa bin Yosef was born of Miryam and performed miraculous healings, but he was never crucified (another, made to look like Issa, was crucified), never died (he was taken to Heaven directly), and infused with the Spirit of God (not coequal with the Holy Spirit as we know God to have revealed Himself in the true Christian Scriptures) so that there was Issa the man and Issa the Son of God.

By contorting Christian teaching, Muhammed (m.s.a.c.) has attempted to take away salvation in Christian theology - if Jesus Christ was not divine and was not crucified, there is no means of salvation, no redemption won on the Cross by our Lord Jesus Christ. There is no Eucharist, then, for Jesus’ Body and Blood were never offered, and the Son cannot hear prayer for He is, in Islam, only an exalted human being. According to Muhammed (m.s.a.c.), Issa will return to marry and have children and live 19 years on the earth, then die; nevermind the truth that Jesus Christ will defeat Satan and rule eternally with the Father and Spirit over a new Heaven and a new Earth, entirely renewed.

No, Muslim theology is a gross distortion of Christian truth when it comes to understanding Lord Jesus Christ.

Muslims worship the same God of Abraham as we do. Arab Christians use the word Allah in their prayers to refer to God. Muslims revere Jesus as a prophet and Mary too. Mary is referred to more often in the Quran than in the Bible.
There are other things you have gotten incorrect.

No one is praising Islam over Christianity but there is no need to do Islam bashing here. I certainly would not recommmend that a Christian woman or any non- Muslim woman marry a Muslim.

 

[severus68]

Alternatively, Muslim men are warned that non-Muslim wives often do not come around. When there is a divorce (for whatever reason), the children live with their mother and are typically not raised even faintly with a Muslim faith. It is also reported that some scholars contend that Muslim men ought to only consider marrying a non-Muslim women if they live in a preponderantly Muslim area. If they don’t have that societal influence on their children, the chances that their wife will truly convert or that their children will grow up to practice Islam when their mother doesn’t is not great.

The utter prohibition on Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men shows the root of the issue. Muslims assume that the father will make the decisions about the religious upbringing of the children.

In a divorce, where one parent Catholic/Christian and the other Muslim Muslim father will always get custody of the Children in Muslim countries and in countries and in countries where Muslims predominate. The exception funnily, is Indonesia, with the largest Muslim population in the world. You can have one parent Muslim and one Catholic/Christian and they are happy. Not sure how they do it.

 

[severus68]

Oh, please don’t misunderstand. I am not saying he would ever do those things. He’s probably a pretty decent guy considering the brides family seems to like him and the bride is in love with him.

I’d think anyone a fool for not considering the what-if’s. If the bride considers the what-if’s and takes a look around, sees that her man is not that kind of guy, cool beans. Good luck because marriage ain’t easy.

Familial expectations aren’t limited to Muslims. Our area is pretty mixed racially and culturally. I haven’t met a single person who is married and their in-laws didn’t expect they would “come around” on one thing or another to keep the peace or blend in. Myself included as my background and my husbands background are very different. But when we’re talking traditions of different cultures it seems an awful lot of families think the adjustment will be all on the other side.

Parental kidnapping isn’t so uncommon. My ex (American with no ties to any other country) kidnapped our kids after the separation and before the divorce. It was 3 days of hell for me before I managed to get them back and the method I used was not exactly legal as it involved some very large and known to carry concealed relatives of mine. The police were virtually useless.

I also personally know socially or through my former jobs 3 other parents who have had their children kidnapped. Two Muslim-Christian marriages that broke up, the father had visitation over the weekend, and decided to abandon his home and business to go back to his country of origin or the country of his family’s origin with his children. The other was a Japanese woman married to an American man. Same story only they had split custody when she fled back to Japan with their child. (She was a dual citizen and their custody agreement was 50-50 physical and legal shared equally)

In the cases of the Muslims, the mothers haven’t seen their kids in years and only one has been allowed to speak to her kids over the phone and gets occasional photos and letters from her ex. The friend who had his ex take their child to Japan ended up getting nowhere through legal channels and decided to give up and move to Japan to be able to see his child. He’s a DJ by profession, moving to japan actually made his career, and he’s happy helping raise his daughter as much as the ex and her family will allow.

So, you can see why the OP’s mention of ties to Egypt and many visits there might make me think this is a possibility should the marriage fail.

Every family has drama and nutters. Some families have them with passports.

And, yes, I have come across some Catholic stereotypes that aren’t flattering at all. I think I handled them with grace. Some of them were in my step-dad’s family! My uncle actually got upset when I bought my Aunt a series of books I knew she’d like for Christmas one year because …get this…“reading gives women ideas and keeps them from doing their job of raising the kids and cleaning the house as God intended.” I really wish I was joking, but I ain’t. And my grandmother told me I failed as a human and a parent and that I lacked maternal instincts because I was not willing to have however many children God wanted to give me.

Oh, and as far as the possible living arrangements I am certainly not being critical. A lot of Hispanic and Muslim families live in a large communal home full of relatives in my area. I think it’s beautiful to see how close they are. Old folks are taken care of at home instead of going into a facility. Kids benefit from the wisdom of elders. Overly permissive parents are balanced out by other family members. Expenses and burdens are shared. Marriage issues are aired and the couple benefits from the guidance of elders who know whats really going on because they live there,too.But to an awful lot of Americans raised outside of those cultures it’s claustraphobic (sp?), restrictive, and miserable.

If the OP’s family member and her groom haven’t discussed the possibilities, they should. He may be assuming she’d be fine if they lived with his extended family. She may be assuming they’d live separately. He may assume discussing personal matters would be fine because, after all, it’s his family. She may not be ok with that level of disclosure and may not even be aware that he’d ever possibly do such a thing. Not to mention, for those in this area that are Muslim or Hispanic and live apart from family, the family does tend to be in and out of each others houses all. the. time. The groom may be assuming this is fine and the bride may be driven batty by the very idea.

Well assessed and well said.

I would just to add an important point. If Catholics act crazy and kidnap their children etc, the Church will not support them. Muslim authorities will support Muslim men who kidnap their children and the Muslim countries will protect them.

 

[mlz]

Personally, I would bow out since you can rightly say that since it is not a valid Catholic marriage you would be “uncomfortable” (much as his family obviously is in it being in a Catholic Church!..which bothers me…yes in their place of worship but not hers?!)

The next thing you do is pray, pray, pray for everyone involved. Simply say you are very sorry but you are uncomfortable. Say it now or “forever hold your peace” as it may be too late to say further down the road.

My prayers for you and your family,
mlz

 

[Xantippe]

MJJean said:

"Oh, and as far as the possible living arrangements I am certainly not being critical. A lot of Hispanic and Muslim families live in a large communal home full of relatives in my area. I think it’s beautiful to see how close they are. Old folks are taken care of at home instead of going into a facility. Kids benefit from the wisdom of elders. Overly permissive parents are balanced out by other family members. Expenses and burdens are shared. Marriage issues are aired and the couple benefits from the guidance of elders who know whats really going on because they live there,too.But to an awful lot of Americans raised outside of those cultures it’s claustraphobic (sp?), restrictive, and miserable.

“If the OP’s family member and her groom haven’t discussed the possibilities, they should. He may be assuming she’d be fine if they lived with his extended family. She may be assuming they’d live separately. He may assume discussing personal matters would be fine because, after all, it’s his family. She may not be ok with that level of disclosure and may not even be aware that he’d ever possibly do such a thing. Not to mention, for those in this area that are Muslim or Hispanic and live apart from family, the family does tend to be in and out of each others houses all. the. time. The groom may be assuming this is fine and the bride may be driven batty by the very idea.”

All very true. Even just on this forum, there are a number of people who suffer from encroaching (i.e. “tight-knit”) in-law situations (I remember a recent poster who was being driven nuts by all the togetherness with his Italian-American wife’s family). The same situation that makes one spouse feel loved and needed makes the other spouse want to change their name and leave the country.

The Catholic-Muslim marriage is definitely a case for extensive marriage prep, but unfortunately, because the cousin-in-law is going for a Lone Ranger approach with her wedding, it’s very likely that they are not going to have good quality premarital counseling.

 

[losh14]

I was wondering if someone would find my comments offensive.

Muslims worship the same God of Abraham as we do. Arab Christians use the word Allah in their prayers to refer to God.

Both true, but my pagan friends are fond of saying “I love God, she’s so great!” The difference, though, is profound - while Muslims recognize the Father (how God revealed Himself to Abraham) they do not recognize the Son or the Holy Spirit, which is at best an incomplete understanding of God.

Muslims revere Jesus as a prophet and Mary too. Mary is referred to more often in the Quran than in the Bible.

It’s not the reverence due Him, though. If you compliment me on my outstanding basketball skills, you’re certainly honoring me and have good intentions, but it’s empty because I’m terrible at basketball. Similarly, to revere Jesus as a prophet, while denying His Divinity (the Quran quotes Jesus as telling Allah that He never told anyone to worship Him, and also holds that after the Judgement, Jesus will marry, have kids, and die), is to hold a distinct understanding of Jesus separate from the Truth revealed in the Christian scriptures. Likewise for Mary, much honor is paid her in the Quran but without acknowledging her as mother of the Savior. Nor does contemporary Muslim devotion compare with the devotion that Christians hold for her.

There are other things you have gotten incorrect.

One of them is “Issa bin Yusuf” - apparently this is a somewhat derogatory title that a Pakistani classmate used in my Arabic classes (two semesters in college). The Quran calls Jesus “Isa ibn Maryam”. But that’s besides the point - the post I responded to stated that Islam and Christianity are incompatible theologically, and I’m concur.

No one is praising Islam over Christianity but there is no need to do Islam bashing here. I certainly would not recommmend that a Christian woman or any non- Muslim woman marry a Muslim.

I’m sorry you see it as bashing. In my experience Muslims are happy to talk about how much they revere Jesus and Mary when, as CS Lewis would put it, they really revere their own understanding of them, rather than as they are.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Blue Eyed Lady said:

“I think that this whole line of conversation is straying from the OP’s original question and is bordering on uncharitable. We cannot make these suppositions about this man based on his religion alone. You cannot say that he would do whatever his family says, because you don’t know him or them. My family is uncomfortable with many things that I do, and I do them anyway. My husband’s family is uncomfortable with almost everything about how we live, but did that mean we got married in the church? Heck no. Will their feelings prompt us to baptize our child and/or raise them in the Catholic faith. No. Making statements about this man’s honor and dignity when it comes to honoring commitments or supposing that because of his religion he will be a bad husband and turn over all control to his family is crazy, not founded on the facts that we have, and not helpful to the OP.”

We do know that the cousin-in-law has already decided to go with a canonically problematic wedding arrangement in order to avoid making her husband-to-be’s family uncomfortable. So, it looks like it’s not at all unfair to say that his family and his family’s traditions are exerting a fairly strong gravitational pull and that that gravitational pull will, with all likelihood, grow even more powerful as the years go by.

This may be very unfair to the cousin-in-law’s intended, but there are many, many examples of Western women who married a Muslim guy who seemed very Westernized and then discovered, after they’d married and had children and perhaps moved back to the old country, that the Westernization was only skin deep. That has happened so many times that it is most prudent to assume that that is a likely outcome.

nypost.com/2013/09/21/my-life-of-hell-in-an-afghan-harem/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Mahmoody

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debbie_Rodriguez

“In all honesty, when it comes to the OP, how the woman and her fiance choose to handle their marriage and religious differences does not matter.”

I think they’ll be very lucky if they are allowed to hash things out by themselves, but if they are, that’s really the best possible outcome.

“All she can and should do is ascertain whether or not she can in good conscience allow her son to participate. I encourage her to sit down with the woman and politely say that she isn’t comfortable having her son participate unless everything is in line with church teaching. If it isn’t , she needs to pull her son out. If it is, then no worries. But I would rather have my family member just come to me and be upfront with a “Hey, I’m afraid I was put on the spot earlier at dinner, so I’d like to clarify. I can only allow my son to be your ring bearer if he won’t be participating in something that is against our faith. So unless your marriage will be valid and in line with church teaching, I’m afraid he can’t be a part of the wedding”. I would respect that a lot.”

And that, dear BEL, is why you are an amazing person.

“Now, if someone came to me and said “You need to have your fiance make XYZ promises in front of his parents so that you know you can trust him” I would flip. That is absolutely no one else’s concern whatsoever and if someone insinuated that my soon to be husband should not be fully trusted because of his religion, despite the fact that I am the one that knows who he is as a person, that would have a lasting impact on my relationship with that person.”

You don’t really know who the person is until you marry them and have kids with them, and the Muslim case is particularly problematic, as there is a strong cultural assumption that children will be raised Muslim. By not doing that, the cousin-in-law’s future husband will be swimming against a very powerful cultural tide.

This is all stuff that needed to be brought up before the engagement, if ever. If there were questions about this man’s integrity, honesty, or character, someone needed to sit down with the young woman before it got to this point. But now that they are planning on getting married, this cannot be brought up without any solid basis to do so.

But going to her now and saying that because he is a Muslim, and only because he is a Muslim, she needs to be very wary of the man she fell in love with and has promised to marry would be crazy. Because who knows? His family (who the OP has never even met!) might try to force her to convert or her fiance may someday try to steal their children! I can’t imagine any woman of character giving someone who tries to make those claims the time of day. She knows her fiance far better than the OP. She knows what personal things they’ve talked about, she knows what his family is like, she knows what agreements they have made. So many of those things are actually not the OP’s business, or anyone else’s.

And no, I don’t think this happens enough to be a “likely outcome”. There are just shy of 3 million Muslims in the United States. It would have to happen thousands of times a year to even approach ‘likely’.