Husband's Cousin is Marrying a Muslim Man

[EasterJoy]

This is all stuff that needed to be brought up before the engagement, if ever. If there were questions about this man’s integrity, honesty, or character, someone needed to sit down with the young woman before it got to this point. But now that they are planning on getting married, this cannot be brought up without any solid basis to do so.

But going to her now and saying that because he is a Muslim, and only because he is a Muslim, she needs to be very wary of the man she fell in love with and has promised to marry would be crazy. Because who knows? His family (who the OP has never even met!) might try to force her to convert or her fiance may someday try to steal their children! I can’t imagine any woman of character giving someone who tries to make those claims the time of day. She knows her fiance far better than the OP. She knows what personal things they’ve talked about, she knows what his family is like, she knows what agreements they have made. So many of those things are actually not the OP’s business, or anyone else’s.

And no, I don’t think this happens enough to be a “likely outcome”. There are just shy of 3 million Muslims in the United States. It would have to happen thousands of times a year to even approach ‘likely’.

The OP’s husband is the bride’s confirmation sponsor. The bride, by pursuing confirmation, assured the Church in the person of the bishop that she intended to uphold the Catholic faith. That means practicing her faith and raising her children Catholic. That is what we promise to do as Catholics. Her confirmation sponsor has not only the place but a duty to remind her of the obligations she has because of these promises that she freely made as an adult.

As for the idea that the bride “knows her fiance far better than the OP”, the world is full of sad stories that started with “I never thought it could happen to us.” No, most couples do not talk this over, do not know what the families will do, and do not have any agreements beyond “we’ll make it work out.” They want each other, and so they close their eyes and hope. They say things like “we’ll bring them up in both and let them choose”, never investigating whether that is likely to actually work. If the odds are bad, they say to themselves, “it will be different for us.” This is true for just about every red flag that a married couple can face; that is, that most couples in our times will decide they can just ignore them.

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread, and the desire to marry a desirable person makes a lot of fools. The one who things herself the exception to this rule is the least likely to actually be one of them. That is the kind of thing a confirmation sponsor ought to say, and if more people did that, there might be at least a few bad marriages that would be avoided. Heaven knows, it would not hurt if the world could avoid far more than it does.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

The OP’s husband is the bride’s confirmation sponsor. The bride, by pursuing confirmation, assured the Church in the person of the bishop that she intended to uphold the Catholic faith. That means practicing her faith and raising her children Catholic. That is what we promise to do as Catholics. Her confirmation sponsor has not only the place but a duty to remind her of the obligations she has because of these promises that she freely made as an adult.

As for the idea that the bride “knows her fiance far better than the OP”, the world is full of sad stories that started with “I never thought it could happen to us.” No, most couples do not talk this over, do not know what the families will do, and do not have any agreements beyond “we’ll make it work out.” They want each other, and so they close their eyes and hope. They say things like “we’ll bring them up in both and let them choose”, never investigating whether that is likely to actually work. If the odds are bad, they say to themselves, “it will be different for us.” This is true for just about every red flag that a married couple can face; that is, that most couples in our times will decide they can just ignore them.

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread, and the desire to marry a desirable person makes a lot of fools. The one who things herself the exception to this rule is the least likely to actually be one of them. That is the kind of thing a confirmation sponsor ought to say, and if more people did that, there might be at least a few bad marriages that would be avoided. Heaven knows, it would not hurt if the world could avoid far more than it does.

IMO-You should never approach an engaged couple in hopes that they will answer to you about how they will raise children that don’t even exist yet. It’s rude to ask an engaged or married couple when they have kids, much less how they plan to raise them religiously.

But, if you are going to violate that and claim special liberties because you were her confirmation sponsor when she was kid, fine. But do it in such a way that shows concern for them as a couple and their future marital harmony. NOT in such a way that paints her husband as a secret monster because of his religion.

That means starting a private conversation that is something along the lines of “You know, mixed faith marriages can be very hard. Of course, if you have a Catholic wedding you will be obligated to raise you children Catholic. Have you guys put any thought into how you’re going to work that out?” This shows love and concern for her without focusing on the fact that her husband is one of those Muslims who, regardless of the character he has shown, is not to be trusted. If you approach this in a way that makes it about the religious differences, rather than the fiance’s specific religion,it will be more fair and reasonable, simply because it is a conversation that you would/could have with any mixed faith engaged couple. Of course, there’s still the chance that she’ll tell you to mind your own business, and you have to live with that.

But speculating on his family, his honesty, making assumptions that he doesn’t mean what he says to her, etc. won’t get the OP very far and are downright awful. Telling her to demand certain things from her fiance before going through with the wedding is extremely uncharitable and meddlesome.

 

[pensmama87]

IMO-You should never approach an engaged couple in hopes that they will answer to you about how they will raise children that don’t even exist yet. It’s rude to ask an engaged or married couple when they have kids, much less how they plan to raise them religiously.

But, if you are going to violate that and claim special liberties because you were her confirmation sponsor when she was kid, fine. But do it in such a way that shows concern for them as a couple and their future marital harmony. NOT in such a way that paints her husband as a secret monster because of his religion.

**That means starting a private conversation that is something along the lines of “You know, mixed faith marriages can be very hard. Of course, if you have a Catholic wedding you will be obligated to raise you children Catholic. Have you guys put any thought into how you’re going to work that out?” This shows love and concern for her without focusing on the fact that her husband is one of those Muslims who, regardless of the character he has shown, is not to be trusted. **If you approach this in a way that makes it about the religious differences, rather than the fiance’s specific religion,it will be more fair and reasonable, simply because it is a conversation that you would/could have with any mixed faith engaged couple. Of course, there’s still the chance that she’ll tell you to mind your own business, and you have to live with that.

But speculating on his family, his honesty, making assumptions that he doesn’t mean what he says to her, etc. won’t get the OP very far and are downright awful. Telling her to demand certain things from her fiance before going through with the wedding is extremely uncharitable and meddlesome.

Thanks BEL and everyone else who has contributed to this thread. My husband and I have talked it over and he has decided to address his cousin in private in basically the manner above: asking questions, or even asking if she desires his (name removed by moderator)ut at all as far as what she is obligated to do as part of her faith (since it is a very confusing situation). As far as validity goes, we’ll ask them how wedding planning is going when we see them at Christmas to see if we can find out more, and then in a few months, when it’s not a big holiday and family gathering type situation, we may call them to figure out in more detail if our son can participate and if we can attend the wedding. That way we still have plenty of time before the wedding (Catholic ceremony planned in October) to bow out if we need to, though I am hoping we won’t. It’s the kind of conversation we’d rather have face-to-face, but that may not happen between Christmas and the wedding, and we’ve agreed that Christmas, in front of lots of family, is not the time.

I do not ascribe any malicious intent to the groom at all. I just think he and the bride are in love and are in all likelihood not thinking everything through (been there, done that!) There are some pretty intense challenges they are going to face even if they do everything “the right way”, and of course as a Catholic I want very much for my husband’s cousin to keep her faith. While not my blood, she was a bridesmaid in our wedding, and is our son’s godmother, and I like her very much. I know that my husband and I can’t make her decisions for her, but we do want to do our part to remind her, lovingly, of her faith and encourage her to keep it. What she does after that is up to her and between her and God.

 

[EasterJoy]

IMO-You should never approach an engaged couple in hopes that they will answer to you about how they will raise children that don’t even exist yet. It’s rude to ask an engaged or married couple when they have kids, much less how they plan to raise them religiously.

But, if you are going to violate that and claim special liberties because you were her confirmation sponsor when she was kid, fine. But do it in such a way that shows concern for them as a couple and their future marital harmony. NOT in such a way that paints her husband as a secret monster because of his religion.

That means starting a private conversation that is something along the lines of “You know, mixed faith marriages can be very hard. Of course, if you have a Catholic wedding you will be obligated to raise you children Catholic. Have you guys put any thought into how you’re going to work that out?” This shows love and concern for her without focusing on the fact that her husband is one of those Muslims who, regardless of the character he has shown, is not to be trusted. If you approach this in a way that makes it about the religious differences, rather than the fiance’s specific religion,it will be more fair and reasonable, simply because it is a conversation that you would/could have with any mixed faith engaged couple. Of course, there’s still the chance that she’ll tell you to mind your own business, and you have to live with that.

But speculating on his family, his honesty, making assumptions that he doesn’t mean what he says to her, etc. won’t get the OP very far and are downright awful. Telling her to demand certain things from her fiance before going through with the wedding is extremely uncharitable and meddlesome.

You don’t have a Catholic understanding of marriage. This is a question from the Catholic marriage vows: Will you accept children lovingly from God and bring them up according to the law of Christ and his Church?

This is from canon law:
*Can. 1125 The local ordinary can grant a permission of this kind if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions have been fulfilled:

1/ the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church;

2/ the other party is to be informed at an appropriate time about the promises which the Catholic party is to make, in such a way that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and obligation of the Catholic party;

3/ both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage which neither of the contracting parties is to exclude.*

Of the purposes and essential properties of marriage, canon law says this, among other things (underline mine):
*Can. 1055 §1. The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life and which is ordered by its nature to the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring, has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament between the baptized.

§2. For this reason, a valid matrimonial contract cannot exist between the baptized without it being by that fact a sacrament*.

These are things the bride ought to have been taught as part of her preparation for confirmation. If she does not know it or has forgotten it, her confirmation sponsor has the office to teach her or remind her. This is not to say that it would be out of place for any fellow Catholic to remind her of these things, since admonishing a sinner, instructing the ignorant, and counseling the doubtful are spiritual works of mercy in the Catholic faith. This isn’t a “me and Jesus and I’ll do as I see fit and everyone else live me alone” brand of Christianity. Therefore, it is not at all rude to ask if a couple contemplating a mixed marriage is aware of the Catholic party’s obligation to raise the children Catholic. It is a sensible question, and it needs to be raised, lest they contract an invalid marriage.

This question becomes even more sensible when a Catholic expresses a desire to marry a Muslim, because of course he too has the obligation according to his religion to raise his children in his faith. That does not make him a monster. That makes him also a member of a religion that expects parents to raise their children in their faith. As it happens, though, these are two faiths with incompatible beliefs. If I wanted to marry a Muslim and his family was afraid I’d want to raise the children Catholic, that would be a sensible thing to be concerned about. If I take my obligations seriously, that is exactly what I would intend to do!!

 

[EasterJoy]

I do not ascribe any malicious intent to the groom at all. I just think he and the bride are in love and are in all likelihood not thinking everything through (been there, done that!) There are some pretty intense challenges they are going to face even if they do everything “the right way”, and of course as a Catholic I want very much for my husband’s cousin to keep her faith. While not my blood, she was a bridesmaid in our wedding, and is our son’s godmother, and I like her very much. I know that my husband and I can’t make her decisions for her, but we do want to do our part to remind her, lovingly, of her faith and encourage her to keep it. What she does after that is up to her and between her and God.

This… that is, it is not necessary to think the groom has any bad intentions. History is full of couples who thought this would be something they could cope with rationally, until they had to cope with it in reality.

 

[Xantippe]

EasterJoy said:

“This question becomes even more sensible when a Catholic expresses a desire to marry a Muslim, because of course he too has the obligation according to his religion to raise his children in his faith. That does not make him a monster. That makes him also a member of a religion that expects parents to raise their children in their faith. As it happens, though, these are two faiths with incompatible beliefs. If I wanted to marry a Muslim and his family was afraid I’d want to raise the children Catholic, that would be a sensible thing to be concerned about. If I take my obligations seriously, that is exactly what I would intend to do!!”

Right. It’s not unfair to think that it’s highly probable that he’s going to want to observe his faith and to instruct his children in that faith, or that he will have a substantial number of relatives who want him to do so and urge him to do so in the strongest possible language. In fact, if I were a betting woman, that’s the way I would bet.

This is a situation where there are two trains heading toward an almost certain collision, and it isn’t at all unreasonable to note that fact, nor is it at all derogatory to the groom to note it. Now, it’s quite possible that 1) he has nerves of steel with regard to facing down his relatives (and I think this is unlikely–note the choice of wedding venue) or 2) she doesn’t care either way and just wants a peaceful, united family, whatever is the easiest way to achieve that. But if neither 1) or 2) is true, then there is going to be a collision.

I think BEL is thinking in terms of Western, atomistic individualism and not thinking about the fact that most of the world’s population does not live that way. They do not enjoy (or suffer) the sort of freedom (but also loneliness) that we take for granted. Pulling away from the family in the way BEL envisions is like an organ separating itself from the body. If you separate from your family, it’s like dying.

 

[severus68]

I was wondering if someone would find my comments offensive.

Both true, but my pagan friends are fond of saying “I love God, she’s so great!” The difference, though, is profound - while Muslims recognize the Father (how God revealed Himself to Abraham) they do not recognize the Son or the Holy Spirit, which is at best an incomplete understanding of God.

It’s not the reverence due Him, though. If you compliment me on my outstanding basketball skills, you’re certainly honoring me and have good intentions, but it’s empty because I’m terrible at basketball. Similarly, to revere Jesus as a prophet, while denying His Divinity (the Quran quotes Jesus as telling Allah that He never told anyone to worship Him, and also holds that after the Judgement, Jesus will marry, have kids, and die), is to hold a distinct understanding of Jesus separate from the Truth revealed in the Christian scriptures. Likewise for Mary, much honor is paid her in the Quran but without acknowledging her as mother of the Savior. Nor does contemporary Muslim devotion compare with the devotion that Christians hold for her.

One of them is “Issa bin Yusuf” - apparently this is a somewhat derogatory title that a Pakistani classmate used in my Arabic classes (two semesters in college). The Quran calls Jesus “Isa ibn Maryam”. But that’s besides the point - the post I responded to stated that Islam and Christianity are incompatible theologically, and I’m concur.

I’m sorry you see it as bashing. In my experience Muslims are happy to talk about how much they revere Jesus and Mary when, as CS Lewis would put it, they really revere their own understanding of them, rather than as they are.

Thank you but I do agree with and know all that you are saying here. However, as Christians shouldn’t we know and do better?
As I posted, I would not recommend any woman serious about her faith to marry a practising Muslim. It could never work, yes, from a theological viewpoint.

 

[robwar]

The OP’s husband is the bride’s confirmation sponsor. The bride, by pursuing confirmation, assured the Church in the person of the bishop that she intended to uphold the Catholic faith. That means practicing her faith and raising her children Catholic. That is what we promise to do as Catholics. Her confirmation sponsor has not only the place but a duty to remind her of the obligations she has because of these promises that she freely made as an adult.

As for the idea that the bride “knows her fiance far better than the OP”, the world is full of sad stories that started with “I never thought it could happen to us.” No, most couples do not talk this over, do not know what the families will do, and do not have any agreements beyond “we’ll make it work out.” They want each other, and so they close their eyes and hope. They say things like “we’ll bring them up in both and let them choose”, never investigating whether that is likely to actually work. If the odds are bad, they say to themselves, “it will be different for us.” This is true for just about every red flag that a married couple can face; that is, that most couples in our times will decide they can just ignore them.

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread, and the desire to marry a desirable person makes a lot of fools. The one who things herself the exception to this rule is the least likely to actually be one of them. That is the kind of thing a confirmation sponsor ought to say, and if more people did that, there might be at least a few bad marriages that would be avoided. Heaven knows, it would not hurt if the world could avoid far more than it does.

i applaud you :thumbsup:x1000

 

[rebeccanew]

Putting the rules aside, because I have zero knowledge about interfaith marriage rules, I would ask her to be married Catholic first, then Muslim. After the Muslim ceremony, the husband becomes the ruler of the family and he could change his mind about the Catholic ceremony.:shrug:I know I sound skeptical, but there is some realism also.

 

[EasterJoy]

Putting the rules aside, because I have zero knowledge about interfaith marriage rules, I would ask her to be married Catholic first, then Muslim. After the Muslim ceremony, the husband becomes the ruler of the family and he could change his mind about the Catholic ceremony.:shrug:I know I sound skeptical, but there is some realism also.

Yes. She ought to also know the Islamic rules with regards to divorce and her husband’s duties with regards to raising the children in the Muslim faith. The differences in the reasons men and women can each initiate divorce proceedings might be an eye-opener for her, for one thing.

If this fellow were proposing a civil marriage followed by a Catholic ceremony, that would give me far less reason to be concerned than what is proposed.

 

[Iheartcoffee]

The movie “Not Without My Daughter” is on Netflix. I do recommend this because a lot of western women that marry into Islamic culture did not know the laws of their husband’s culture and what it entails regarding raising children in one culture vs. another. This can be very problematic.

 

[robwar]

The movie “Not Without My Daughter” is on Netflix. I do recommend this because a lot of western women that marry into Islamic culture did not know the laws of their husband’s culture and what it entails regarding raising children in one culture vs. another. This can be very problematic.

that is a very chilling story and she barely escaped. Most western women have no idea what they are getting into, especially if the end up going to the husbands homeland which is what happen in that story.

 

[pensmama87]

Update:

My husband asked on Christmas Eve how the wedding planning was going. They said they were still focusing on “the religious stuff” and had a meeting in a couple of weeks with “someone from the diocese” where they are marrying who “specialized” in Catholic-Muslim marriages (quotations - their words.)

I’m not familiar with her diocese (or any, really) set up as far as this kind of thing since my husband and I had a very boring wedding in that regard (except that our priest needed permission to celebrate our wedding in the parish, and he took care of that himself.) But I am encouraged that they are still working on the religious aspect of it and aren’t taking it for granted. I’m glad that they are meeting with someone who has an official position in the diocese where they are marrying. I’m not sure if they’ll be able to get everything they want, but at least they’ll be talking to someone “in the know,” who presumably knows what to look for.

We’ll plan for a more in depth conversation about it in a few months, after this meeting and when it’s not a big holiday time that will be adding stress for everyone.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I think BEL is thinking in terms of Western, atomistic individualism and not thinking about the fact that most of the world’s population does not live that way. They do not enjoy (or suffer) the sort of freedom (but also loneliness) that we take for granted. Pulling away from the family in the way BEL envisions is like an organ separating itself from the body. If you separate from your family, it’s like dying.

Actually, I would say that your conclusions are stemming from Western thinking.

You are absolutely convinced that because you saw the word ‘Muslim’, that this man does not have Western values. There are MANY Westernized Muslims, there are many Muslim families with very modern views on marriage and family, and many Muslims in the US who lack any ties to the Middle East. But you, and many other posters, are assuming the worst, that he is not Westernized, that he is a liar, that it is a “likely” outcome that he would kidnap her or their children, etc.

The notion that he may be a very traditional Muslim in both religion and Middle Eastern culture is not outlandish, but it seems unlikely based on what the OP has mentioned so far. To completely reject the possibility that he’s as normal as anyone else, as you and many others have done, is uncharitable and bigoted.

That’s why I suggest approaching this from an interfaith marriage perspective, rather than a ‘he’s a Muslim’ approach. He does not deserve to have her extended family try to pressure her into putting extra requirements on him or subjecting him to intense scrutiny on the basis of his religion. And as I said, no woman of character would allow her family to attempt to say such things about a man she is promised to marry.

 

[Xantippe]

pensmama87 said:

“They said they were still focusing on “the religious stuff” and had a meeting in a couple of weeks with “someone from the diocese” where they are marrying who “specialized” in Catholic-Muslim marriages (quotations - their words.)”

Very good.

It’s better if they are getting this from the horse’s mouth.

 

[Xantippe]

BEL said:

“You are absolutely convinced that because you saw the word ‘Muslim’, that this man does not have Western values. There are MANY Westernized Muslims, there are many Muslim families with very modern views on marriage and family, and many Muslims in the US who lack any ties to the Middle East. But you, and many other posters, are assuming the worst, that he is not Westernized, that he is a liar, that it is a “likely” outcome that he would kidnap her or their children, etc.”

I don’t know if he does or doesn’t have Western values about family, women, paternal rights, religious freedom, etc. The problem is that a superficially Westernized Muslim and an actually Westernized Muslim will look more or less identical to the casual observer (or even to a naive bride).

As an extreme example, consider the Tsarnaev brothers, who were not, by the way, Middle Eastern. To the casual observer, Dzokhar looked and acted more or less like any other Boston college student, right up until the day of the Boston Marathon.

“The brothers Tsarnaev had been in the United States for nearly a decade. Ethnic Chechens, they came with their family to Cambridge – fleeing violence in their homeland for a better life in America. Immediately, 8-year-old Dzhokhar immediately seemed to just fit in.”

"Larry Aaronson, a history teacher at the prestigious Cambridge Rindge and Latin High School – the same school Matt Damon and Ben Affleck attended - said Dzhokhar was a great kid.

"“I know this kid to be compassionate. I know this kid to be forthgoing. He’s a great athlete, a sportsman, he’s never been in trouble,”

“Aaronson said. “He was just generous, he was compassionate, he was thoughtful.””

cbsnews.com/news/dzhokhar-and-tamerlan-a-profile-of-the-tsarnaev-brothers/

A Westerner simply isn’t in a good position to evaluate how Westernized and assimilated a Muslim is, as the question is, how do they act when they aren’t in the public eye? A bicultural person can put off Western ways just as easily as you can take off jeans and a t-shirt. (I am or used to be bicultural, and I had two fairly distinct personalities, depending on which one I was operating in–that is quite common.)

If the couple is able to agree to a canonically appropriate wedding, that will be a big mark in his favor, but if there is insistence on a canonically invalid wedding because his relatives will be “uncomfortable” that’s not a good sign for their marriage. It also make it harder to imagine that their children will in fact be raised Catholic, because the wedding is the easy part. It’s the raising of the children in the Catholic faith that will be very hard on his family. If they find it impossible to set foot in a Catholic church for a wedding, consider how they’ll feel about having their grandchildren and nieces and nephews raised outside the one true faith? It’s easy for me to imagine how hard it’s going to be on them, because I can imagine how hard it would be for me, if the shoe were on the other foot.

It is, however, an excellent sign that the couple is in official talks with the actual diocese. That is excellent.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

BEL said:

“You are absolutely convinced that because you saw the word ‘Muslim’, that this man does not have Western values. There are MANY Westernized Muslims, there are many Muslim families with very modern views on marriage and family, and many Muslims in the US who lack any ties to the Middle East. But you, and many other posters, are assuming the worst, that he is not Westernized, that he is a liar, that it is a “likely” outcome that he would kidnap her or their children, etc.”

I don’t know if he does or doesn’t have Western values about family, women, paternal rights, religious freedom, etc. The problem is that a superficially Westernized Muslim and an actually Westernized Muslim will look more or less identical to the casual observer (or even to a naive bride).

As an extreme example, consider the Tsarnaev brothers, who were not, by the way, Middle Eastern. To the casual observer, Dzokhar looked and acted more or less like any other Boston college student, right up until the day of the Boston Marathon.

“The brothers Tsarnaev had been in the United States for nearly a decade. Ethnic Chechens, they came with their family to Cambridge – fleeing violence in their homeland for a better life in America. Immediately, 8-year-old Dzhokhar immediately seemed to just fit in.”

"Larry Aaronson, a history teacher at the prestigious Cambridge Rindge and Latin High School – the same school Matt Damon and Ben Affleck attended - said Dzhokhar was a great kid.

"“I know this kid to be compassionate. I know this kid to be forthgoing. He’s a great athlete, a sportsman, he’s never been in trouble,”

“Aaronson said. “He was just generous, he was compassionate, he was thoughtful.””

cbsnews.com/news/dzhokhar-and-tamerlan-a-profile-of-the-tsarnaev-brothers/

A Westerner simply isn’t in a good position to evaluate how Westernized and assimilated a Muslim is, as the question is, how do they act when they aren’t in the public eye? A bicultural person can put off Western ways just as easily as you can take off jeans and a t-shirt. (I am or used to be bicultural, and I had two fairly distinct personalities, depending on which one I was operating in–that is quite common.)

If the couple is able to agree to a canonically appropriate wedding, that will be a big mark in his favor, but if there is insistence on a canonically invalid wedding because his relatives will be “uncomfortable” that’s not a good sign for their marriage. It also make it harder to imagine that their children will in fact be raised Catholic, because the wedding is the easy part. It’s the raising of the children in the Catholic faith that will be very hard on his family. If they find it impossible to set foot in a Catholic church for a wedding, consider how they’ll feel about having their grandchildren and nieces and nephews raised outside the one true faith? It’s easy for me to imagine how hard it’s going to be on them, because I can imagine how hard it would be for me, if the shoe were on the other foot.

It is, however, an excellent sign that the couple is in official talks with the actual diocese. That is excellent.

I find this post extremely sad. To invoke the Tsarnaev brothers is so extreme. (Also, a perfect example of non-Western converts to Islam, not exactly what we’re talking about here). This man has done absolutely nothing to warrant that kind of comparison. The fact that you hear ‘Muslim’ and think ‘Terrorist’ is a problem that you need to work on. Timothy McVeigh was a Christian who was very devout, and other than being shy, also seemed very normal. Should I insist that my extended family treat all Christians with that kind of trepidation because Christian terrorists exist?

Regardless, just because he would be uncomfortable with a Catholic ceremony does not in any way indicate that he is a hidden extremist who is a liar and a manipulator. Guess what-I am extremely uncomfortable attending a Catholic ceremony (though I do attend when they come up), much less having one. That doesn’t make me a kidnapper or an abuser. It’s very normal for him to feel uncomfortable, just as she (and her family) would feel uncomfortable with an Islamic ceremony. I’m really glad that they are trying to start their marriage by honoring the requirements of both of their faiths. To me that says neither person is feeling pressure to give up what they believe and that they are both willing to compromise to accommodate the obligations of the other. The desire to honor both families, both traditions, and both beliefs, is fantastic!

 

[pensmama87]

I find this post extremely sad. To invoke the Tsarnaev brothers is so extreme. (Also, a perfect example of non-Western converts to Islam, not exactly what we’re talking about here). This man has done absolutely nothing to warrant that kind of comparison. The fact that you hear ‘Muslim’ and think ‘Terrorist’ is a problem that you need to work on. Timothy McVeigh was a Christian who was very devout, and other than being shy, also seemed very normal. Should I insist that my extended family treat all Christians with that kind of trepidation because Christian terrorists exist?

Regardless, just because he would be uncomfortable with a Catholic ceremony does not in any way indicate that he is a hidden extremist who is a liar and a manipulator. Guess what-I am extremely uncomfortable attending a Catholic ceremony (though I do attend when they come up), much less having one. That doesn’t make me a kidnapper or an abuser. It’s very normal for him to feel uncomfortable, just as she (and her family) would feel uncomfortable with an Islamic ceremony. I’m really glad that they are trying to start their marriage by honoring the requirements of both of their faiths. To me that says neither person is feeling pressure to give up what they believe and that they are both willing to compromise to accommodate the obligations of the other. The desire to honor both families, both traditions, and both beliefs, is fantastic!

The problem is - it can’t happen, if both of them are devout in their faith. While some of the portraits of Muslims and Islam on this thread may not be entirely charitable, the fact remains that the two faiths are incompatible if they are practiced as intended. I don’t know that the bride and groom have thought about that yet, or if they’re making the assumption that the other person will capitulate because “they love me.” So this meeting they are having with an official from the diocese is a good thing.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

The problem is - it can’t happen, if both of them are devout in their faith. While some of the portraits of Muslims and Islam on this thread may not be entirely charitable, the fact remains that the two faiths are incompatible if they are practiced as intended. I don’t know that the bride and groom have thought about that yet, or if they’re making the assumption that the other person will capitulate because “they love me.” So this meeting they are having with an official from the diocese is a good thing.

That’s something that I’m not sure about, and it’s complicated enough that I would be very hesitant to take advice on from anyone on internet, except from maybe 1ke. The rules for a valid marriage in Catholicism are complex, and I can only imagine that its the same story in Islam. But Catholic-Muslim marriages are common enough that I’m sure that clergy from both faiths should be able to guide them on how to proceed. I can also imagine that both clergy will want to talk about the issue of children, and that’s good. The fact that they are working to accommodate both beliefs does show an awareness of the challenges that this kind of marriage brings. But how to raise children is something that they are going to have to talk about with each other and their religious leaders first, and then explain to their families. That’s just one of those issues where family, much less extended family, really can’t and shouldn’t get involved.

 

[EasterJoy]

Actually, I would say that your conclusions are stemming from Western thinking.

You are absolutely convinced that because you saw the word ‘Muslim’, that this man does not have Western values. There are MANY Westernized Muslims, there are many Muslim families with very modern views on marriage and family, and many Muslims in the US who lack any ties to the Middle East. But you, and many other posters, are assuming the worst, that he is not Westernized, that he is a liar, that it is a “likely” outcome that he would kidnap her or their children, etc.

The notion that he may be a very traditional Muslim in both religion and Middle Eastern culture is not outlandish, but it seems unlikely based on what the OP has mentioned so far. To completely reject the possibility that he’s as normal as anyone else, as you and many others have done, is uncharitable and bigoted.

That’s why I suggest approaching this from an interfaith marriage perspective, rather than a ‘he’s a Muslim’ approach. He does not deserve to have her extended family try to pressure her into putting extra requirements on him or subjecting him to intense scrutiny on the basis of his religion. And as I said, no woman of character would allow her family to attempt to say such things about a man she is promised to marry.

First off, I think the Muslim requirement that children be raised in the Islamic faith is universal. I do not meant that everyone does it, but that in official terms it is universally expected. It is what the people he worships with will presume he will do.

If so, this is the same as someone marrying a Roman Catholic. Not every Roman Catholic marries with the actual intention of raising their children Catholic, but everyone who marries in the Church must imply that this is their intention. If a dispensation for disparity of cult is obtained, both parties must attest that they know the Catholic party has this obligation. The Catholic normally has to do so in writing, and the priest has to confirm that the non-Catholic party is aware that their spouse-to-be has stated an intention to honor this obligation. IOW, if the couple does not intend to have their children baptized, the Catholic has to lie to a priest. This may be exactly the position a Muslim man is put into if he marries a Catholic woman without any intention to try to convert her to Islam or the firm conviction that his children will be raised as Muslims.

Secondly, if I were going through a divorce and knew that flight to a particular country would guarantee that I would get custody of my children, I would be extremely tempted to go there. That has no necessary connection to religion in general or the Islamic faith in particular. That is human nature, and it is neither uncharitable nor bigoted. It is realistic. Unless the groom is a Muslim who could never be induced to take his children to live in a “Muslim country”–and I am sure there are Muslim fathers who would not take their daughters to a country with laws he believed would discriminate against them, no matter how good the intention behind the law was–then that is an issue to consider, as well.

Interfaith marriages are more likely to end in divorce, too. It is hard to consider that when marrying, but it is naïve not to. It is the hard truth.