Husbands, here's some unsolicited advice from a married man on Ephesians 5:21-33

[childinthefaith]

You must have learnt this from somewhere. Was it your wife, or someone else like a marriage counselor? Anyway, a wife should be merciful with her husband if she has an expectation of what you’ve described. I mean, I don’t expect my wife to clean the gutters.

Gutters, funny. My wife and I have a clear line of demarcation regarding such things. She rules the inside of the house. I rule the garage, shed, and yard - AND, if I don’t do as I’m told, I may well find myself cast out to sleep in any of those three locations…

Took a communication class once but, I honestly learned this by experience, from my wife’s (name removed by moderator)ut. Call it “on the job training”

Many of us are caught up so much in what we want to say on a topic that we ignore other people’s words on an issue long enough to grab a pause to state our (presumed correct) statements…I’ve done it - bad bad bad.

I’ve been around the block with employers & stuff in multiple fields, never corporate, so no experience except observations there…

///— Here is an example of our dynamic in action…I took her for a haircut earlier to her stylist who owns a barbershop downtown. Wife had said the cut would make her hair look “sassy.” During the cut, I checked a few times asking on a 1-10 scale “how sassy do you feel now?” AFTER the cut, when she was paying, I suggested she pose with the barber’s broom for me so I could see how sexy she looked…
I was informed on the way home that although the other 2 people in the room were amused, she had not been. I’ve duly noted that and won’t repeat the joke ever again because it pains me i offended her. And yeh, I apologized…told her to put some stuff she wants in the Amazon cart and use my card for it as well, just for good measure.

We also agreed just yesterday that the more birthdays we have, the less of a verbal filter either of us possess. Imagine that.

 

[dochawk]

Ha! I clean the gutters at our house!

We solve that by not having gutters.

Not enough rain to keep them cleaned out.

Water drainage on the streets is similarly above ground.

we get about 4" of rain a year–and many years, almost half in a single night!

I took her for a haircut earlier to her stylist

something out there has to make going shopping sound attractive . . .

 

[childinthefaith]

something out there has to make going shopping sound attractive

That was around half an hour of web surfing on my phone, interrupted only when I chose to ask silly questions, as described.
*Totally get that comment tho.

I am, however, a different sort of handler. I’m absolutely fine being her driver, security, or even personal shopper. But it does indeed work both ways. We simply choose to not tell each other “no” about anything. So when I say do you mind if I go shoot a few 100 rounds with the guys and go to lunch tomorrow…her response is gonna be, “go ahead…”

But then, let’s talk about ME some more LoL, since that is why we’re all here…I also, as part of being her handler, on one of her work days, will be sure she has a hot fresh cup of coffee ready within 3 mins before her alarm goes off, pack a custom lunch for her, have it ready, help her check time on her getting ready to go, then drive her to work and pick her up later so that I get the extra 15 mins each way with her…i just adore her that much and love our time…

 

[otjm]

Given there are 7 deadly sins, I think that that pastor was oversimplifying matters.

Communication is a tremendous problem, as men and women communicate differently. That is not wrong; it just is. However, it often leads to chaos when the two styles clash; and if they clash often enough, it can lead to distance, and a reduction in communication.

 

[Ammi]

I recall a beloved pastor saying that most divorces were due to simple selfishness.
Seems true to me!

I wholeheartedly agree with this pastor.

 

[childinthefaith]

I left out some data in the OP:
We began dating at age 16, dated through high school. Were engaged our senior year. And she was literally my prom queen. We married about 15 months after graduation. I knew very quickly after we began dating that I was to spend my life with this (then girl) woman. And, we are as in love now as we were then.
Not “we love each other,” but, “we are ‘in love’”. Sure, there have been some bumps along that road, but here we are, praise be to God for having given her to me.

I love and adore this lady so much that, once I had to discuss it in confession to be sure I don’t idolize her. I was assured by the priest that I was ok and am not doing so.

 

[PetraG]

You must have learnt this from somewhere. Was it your wife, or someone else like a marriage counselor? Anyway, a wife should be merciful with her husband if she has an expectation of what you’ve described.

It’s a skill, like throwing a baseball. Every German soccer player I ever met threw a baseball in a manner referred to as “throwing like a girl” when I was in grade school. You’re not born knowing how to do things that require a skill. You can be a wonderful athlete, but you still have to learn how to throw a baseball.

There are books in the library that describe the skills that couples who communicate well use. John Gottman wrote some of those that are in most libraries. He has a lab where couples would have taped conversations with each other, he and his researchers would study how the couples did and did not communicate, from body language to how things were said to what was said and in what ratio different kinds of things were said, all the way to use of “the silent treatment.” They contrasted the tactics used by happy couples with the tactics used by couples that wound up divorced. They came up with skills that happy couples use.

 

[PetraG]

I recall a beloved pastor saying that most divorces were due to simple selfishness.
Seems true to me!

Hmmm…yes, but the selfishness that comes from ignorance, many times.

I remember a man, by that time married, divorced and married to a second wife, who told me that when he married a 2nd time and their marriage hit the skids and they went to counseling, it finally dawned on him during counseling that his first marriage failed because he acted like a jack#@$. He honestly did not get that earlier than that. He said that although he appreciated his second wife for finally getting it through his head what marriage requires, if he had only understood it he would have never divorced his first wife. It was his advice that anyone thinking about divorce ought to get counseling and the help of a professional to figure out why the marriage isn’t working, even if the couple think they are very sure why they are divorcing. If nothing else, he reasoned, it might help them to not get into a new version of the same marriage that failed the first time and just fail the same way all over again and make someone else the same kind of miserable.

In other words, some people otherwise capable of marriage are so ill-equipped in terms of the skills and the understanding of how a marriage functions that they really don’t have a chance to get it right. Even more have enough skills to survive, but could do so much better if they understood themselves, their spouse and what goes into marriage just a bit better. (Oh, the stories I have of people dragged to Marriage Encounter who came back glowing because of all they learned that they never knew about their marriages.)

 

[twf]

Interesting, because as a man, I find I have the opposite problem. I process stress my expressing my frustrations. I rarely if ever am looking for a solution or answer. I just need to express it. My wife in turn tends to get very upset when I do this…assuming I need a solution. After almost 6 years she hasn’t quite realized that I don’t want a solution from her - I just need to vent.

 

[Ammi]

I read your example of the remarried man, and wonder how these people think divorce and remarriage is ok.

Then I realize the situation our our society and Church, and I understand that there is such little to counter all this selfishness and ignorance.

I think too many people think ignorance is just always invincible, when in reality people are ignorant because they have made many choices to be.

 

[PetraG]

I read your example of the remarried man, and wonder how these people think divorce and remarriage is ok.

Then I realize the situation our our society and Church, and I understand that there is such little to counter all this selfishness and ignorance.

I think too many people think ignorance is just always invincible, when in reality people are ignorant because they have made many choices to be.

Oh, he wasn’t Catholic and neither were either of his wives. I have no idea if he could have obtained an annulment from his previous marriage or not; it is a bit of a moot point. I do know they all went into marriage with the concept that divorce is an option if things did not work out. His problem was obviously not that his ignorance was invincible. His problem was that it didn’t even dawn on him how ignorant he was! He thought he was being reasonable with his first wife at the time but realized after it was much too late that he was not reasonable at all. He wanted to save others from his mistake. (As I remember the story of his second wife, in contrast: she had a first husband who went into marriage with the idea that fidelity to the marital bed was not binding on him. He never had any intention to be faithful to her from the start; there was no question about it, even though he of course mislead her about that when they exchanged vows. She could undoubtedly have obtained a decree of nullity, had she been Catholic.)

His point was similar to that of Dr. Phil: that is, if you want out of your marriage, you owe it to yourself to work your way out of it. Understand what is going wrong by getting outside opinions and doing the work to be open with yourself about your own actions, motivations and perceptions. Do a reality check. Keep in mind that the Church will not make investigations into nullity until after the couple has obtained a divorce (or at least will not in the US). I have been told this is because of the chance that the investigation process could alienate the affection of spouses in a valid marriage.

The better alternative when it seems too difficult to stay together is to explore the capabilities and understanding of the spouses within the context of marriage counseling and trying to preserve the common conjugal life. If that work achieves what it ought to, the couple will at least have an understanding of their situation, and can decide which of the three moral avenues apply to them: maintaining the common conjugal life in a way that is mutually and fully committed, separate with the bond remaining for reasons that are appropriate under canon law or separate and demonstrate to a tribunal that the attempt at marriage did not result in a valid marriage and should therefor be declared null.

Someone who finds themselves in the other option, which is to stay under the same roof but to withhold from a true common conjugal life, is in a situation that ought to be rectified by mutual effort, if at all possible. That is no way to choose to live. That is not what God intended marriage life to be.

 

[PetraG]

With regards to this thread, the point is this: Don’t just assume that marriage is something you are either good at or not good at or that you and your spouse are either suitable or not suitable for each other or that just staying together counts as marital success. It is not that simple. Marriage also does not just “take work.” Marriage requires effort, yes, but effort applied in the right ways, ways that can be taught and learned. A good marriage also requires grace, which is the unmerited help God gives to his children so they can answer the ongoing call that lead them to their state in life. Even the manna that just fell from heaven had to be gathered up. Just so, the graces God intends for those who marry need to be accepted and put into employment. It doesn’t usually happen so naturally that it feels to the couple as if no effort was required. Sometimes, maybe, but that is extremely unusual.

 

[childinthefaith]

Wow, seems my tiny attempt to give fraternal (name removed by moderator)ut has turned into a marriage how to, or how not to as the case may be.

Thing I was attempting here works both ways of course, as does everything in a marriage - love your spouse as you love Christ.

I’d also point out that since we are of course to love our spouse as ourself, being our best self is critical to loving the other. Example-I used tobacco for years and was in an (name removed by moderator)atient situation for an unrelated issue. While there & making messes with the tobacco, I got irritated at myself for using it…also finally realized that if I didnt quit, I could well place my wife in a role to tend to a dying version of me for being too stubborn to stop using tobacco n getting cancer. So I quit. Then and there. Again, we must be the best version of ourselves to be much good to anyone else, especially our spouse…

 

[Ammi]

Oh, he wasn’t Catholic and neither were either of his wives. I have no idea if he could have obtained an annulment from his previous marriage or not; it is a bit of a moot point. I do know they all went into marriage with the concept that divorce is an option if things did not work out. His problem was obviously not that his ignorance was invincible. His problem was that it didn’t even dawn on him how ignorant he was! He thought he was being reasonable with his first wife at the time but realized after it was much too late that he was not reasonable at all. He wanted to save others from his mistake. (As I remember the story of his second wife, in contrast: she had a first husband who went into marriage with the idea that fidelity to the marital bed was not binding on him. He never had any intention to be faithful to her from the start; there was no question about it, even though he of course mislead her about that when they exchanged vows. She could undoubtedly have obtained a decree of nullity, had she been Catholic.)

Catholic or not, natural marriage usually should not be divorced.

Keep in mind that the Church will not make investigations into nullity until after the couple has obtained a divorce (or at least will not in the US). I have been told this is because of the chance that the investigation process could alienate the affection of spouses in a valid marriage.

I really dont buy this excuse. I’m not even sure the State operates that way. Does the United States require divorce before declaring a marriage null?

Anyway it happens already, that many impediments are already known and prohibit Eucharist Communion.

And a declaration of nulity should not mean convalidation is not encouraged, if possible.

 

[PetraG]

Yes, to the best of my knowledge the tribunals in the US do not do investigations into nullity for couples still civilly married (as opposed to detecting lack of form, for instance).

I pretty much said an unhappy couple ought to try to figure out how to truly live the common conjugal life. I wasn’t implying they ought to look to get out of the marriage. I was implying that merely avoiding divorce does not equate to faithfulness in the married state of life. I don’t think we differ on that. But yes, canon law clearly gives three alternatives, not just two, one of the three being separated with the bond remaining.

 

[JanR]

A classic example of inadequate communication:

Hubby sends me to the builders supply store to purchase some insulation. He writes down a few details, but not everything I would need to know. When I get to the store and ask for the insulation, the employee asks me, “Roll type or sheet type?” Hubby never said. “What width? R-Value?” Hubby never mentioned it. He apparently assumed I knew, which I didn’t, since I’m not in that business.

So there I stand, embarrassed, having to call hubby and ask him those questions, the answers to which he could have included in the details he wrote down, but omitted. He tells me over the phone (although irritated because somehow I’m supposed to know this stuff), and I relay the answers to the sales staff.

Even with that, and the other details he provided, I still ended up bringing home the wrong product and he had to take it back personally and exchange it for what he really wanted.

Sound familiar?

 

[dochawk]

My wife deals with this by calling me and then handing the phone to the guy in the aisle . . .

 

[Ammi]

Yes, to the best of my knowledge the tribunals in the US do not do investigations into nullity for couples still civilly married (as opposed to detecting lack of form, for instance).

Yes, I just dont buy the excuse that the Church would be alienating affection by investigating validity while civil marriage is still legal. There are many reasons why that is a silly arguement. Especially because the couple themselves would be approaching the tribunal for inquiry. Even still, the Church has freedom to call a marriage invalid based on her definitions of marriage. Or consider same sex marriage. The Church obviously calls that an invalid marriage. There are many situations why the Church already calls some civil unions invalid while they are still married in the States view.

I personally believe the U.S. tribunal tries too hard to keep in line with the State marriage. It will try to render a civil divorce marriage invalid as not to cause conflict. And if it tries, I have little doubt it will be unsuccessful. They have the authority to do so, according to wide interpretation.

 

[PetraG]

You don’t have to have done anything wrong in an ultimate sense to get sued and for all I know it was originally a legal thing having to do with civil law.

I’m not even sure how many states still have alienation of affection laws. Sometimes these policies are set in one legal setting and then when the circumstances change there is no adjustment. I couldn’t say. This is just the explanation I was given, because like you I thought it would be strange to require a civil divorce when you don’t know whether or not the marriage is valid. I guess the rationale was that if you just cannot live under the same roof, not even if you have no assurance you’ll ever be able to marry anyone else, you would know. I couldn’t say.

It is possible to have an investigation into validity without the cooperation of both spouses. It makes sense as a vindictive or controlling person who never had any interest in the real goods of marriage would of course not want to cooperate.

 

[PetraG]

Yes, there is far more to marital success and fidelity to our state in life than just avoiding the brink of divorce!

The point is that people can even go over that brink and still be clueless about their own failures. More often, though, we can be complacent about how we’re doing because things are going “reasonably well.” We have no idea about what we could be doing differently to be better.

One of my rules of marriage (after over 30 years) is this: If you did something wrong, apologize, even if you’re not the most wrong.

That is a really good way to go.