Hymnals Revisited

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I have been delegated the task of reviewing and recommending hymnal or hymnals for our parish. We are generally an OCP parish. I am on the fence myself, old enough to remember and appreciate chant and young enough to be able to like some of the newer hymns. A hymnal without some of the St. Louis Jesuit songs will not be popular because of where the parish appears to be on music at the present.
Has any one had good success with a hymnal that straddles the fence like I do? IF so, what?
Likewise, how are others looking at the timing for purchase of hymnals at the present?
Thanks
 
Are you looking for an actual hymnal that’s going to be around for a little while or a yearly subscription to a music supplement, like Breaking Bread or the Music Issue from OCP?
 
Actually looking for one that will be around a while. However, the case could be made for a stop gap until the liturgy revisions are made, if it is cost effective. Right now we have OCP Glory and Praise Classic Edition and Flor y Canto First edition and United in Christ 2009. The hymnal(s) will replace the G&P and FyC.
 
Why not just go cold turikey from OCP and try either the St. Michael or the Adoremus hymnal? The St. Louis Jesuits represent some of the worst in music. It is too dated, too 70s and too folksy.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass deserves music that is compatible with the incredible and awesome mysteries that unfold before us at every liturgy.

I realize that this is harsh. However, you don’t have to worry about questinable doctrine, use of the unprounanceable name of God and inclusive language. Furthermore, you will also be able to find suitable Mass parts that your parish can sing that do not compromise the integrity of the translations by paraphrasing.

The only caveat is that these hymnals should be paperback. The reason I say this is because in about a couple of years, more or less, we will be having a new translation of the prayers and propers of the Mass. This will bring us into conformity with Liturgiam Authenticam.

As for the hmnals, Ignatius Press has the ones i suggested on their website. If you decide to go with GIA, ask the publishing company if you can get hold of the original Worship III hymnals (without the readings), as you won’t have to fool with inclusive language.
 
I wish I had known better before we went with the GIA hymnals ten years ago. I regret the heck out of the fact that they fooled around with the words to songs that were well known throughout the world. I will not make the same mistake twice. It is a disaster every Christmas trying to sing carols where it seems GIA got the words wrong on almost every hymn. It is a real train wreck. I like some of the newer song they include, but it is not worth the price of dealing with their publishers who think they know more than the original composers.
 
I am not sure that there is a PERFECT set of texts for any of the traditional hymns except perhaps the Latin. I have found that tradition is variable. Depends on the source and the traditions and religious variants it has passed through to get into the book. I usually go into CCLI and look at the public domain VERSIONS before I decide what to put in the worship aids and what to practice with the choir. I also compare Spanish traditional in GIA and OCP with WLP and some web sources before I decide on those.

On the flip side, translations from Spanish to English vary a LOT no matter who is doing the translating. The worst of the lot seem to be in OCP which appears to represent some poor paraphrasing as translations (egregious example: Vision Pastoral).

I am also not so sure that all songs old are good nor are all songs new bad. One must look at the theology, the cadence and the heart of it to make the cuts.

On the NPM website, there are resource lists that they have compiled of songs every Catholic should know and there are both old and new on the list. I think that is what makes the choosing of hymnals so tricky. It is really hard to make a balanced choice that is for an all purpose hymnal if we choose only for our personal tastes. What I will recommend will need to serve the needs of the charismatic prayer groups, the Guadalupanas, the RCIA, etc. It will not just be for Mass and benediction. Yes, there is a beauty in the grandeur of the tried and true. But eventually, even things written tomorrow will become later generations tradition.
 
This may not be helpful to your question, but it does need to be said because so few (including music directors) even know it. The 4-hymn “sandwich” is not the ideal of the sung Mass no matter what hymns are used. So the job is not finished when a good hymnal is chosen.
 
There is not perfect set of texts, but that is scarcely a reason to make stuff up. It is obvious that they deliberately change things toward an inclusive language. I guess if this is what you want, but I really wish these supposedly Catholic companies would occasionally read the Church’s liturgical documents and actually follow them.
 
Perhaps I started in the middle of the question rather that the beginning. Maybe the better questions should be:

What is the criteria that we should apply when reviewing and selecting a music resource for a particular congregation?
 
I was thinking about the difference between my Dad and his approach to buying cars and mine. He never saw a Ford he would buy (Fix Or Repair Daily), likewise no imports, Buick and GMC were his preferrences. We have an OLD Chrysler and a middle aged Toyota right now because we had specific needs when we started looking. Long term dependability has been characteristic of both.

I know what I think I need to look for in a music resource, but the times they are a’changin and I am not sure that I have kept up.
Thanks for your insight in advance.
 
Consider also any other resources you use. For example, our missalettes come from OCP. Therefore, I have no problem in a few years abandoning the newer stuff for a more orthodox hymnal, even though that hymnal may not have as many of the newer songs. We would still have the OCP materials available for use.
 
Why not just go cold turikey from OCP and try either the St. Michael or the Adoremus hymnal? The St. Louis Jesuits represent some of the worst in music. It is too dated, too 70s and too folksy.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass deserves music that is compatible with the incredible and awesome mysteries that unfold before us at every liturgy.

I realize that this is harsh. However, you don’t have to worry about questinable doctrine, use of the unprounanceable name of God and inclusive language. Furthermore, you will also be able to find suitable Mass parts that your parish can sing that do not compromise the integrity of the translations by paraphrasing.

The only caveat is that these hymnals should be paperback. The reason I say this is because in about a couple of years, more or less, we will be having a new translation of the prayers and propers of the Mass. This will bring us into conformity with Liturgiam Authenticam.

As for the hmnals, Ignatius Press has the ones i suggested on their website. If you decide to go with GIA, ask the publishing company if you can get hold of the original Worship III hymnals (without the readings), as you won’t have to fool with inclusive language.
This is very good advice! These hymnals will last you a very long time and will not become so stylistically dated as the ones from OCP are.

The Today’s Missal Music Issue from OCP has this weird tendency to live in two decades at the same time: the 1970’s and the 1990’s… neither of which are musical “golden ages” of the Church.
 
If your parish has grown accustomed to the folksy Glory and Praise/OCP/St. Louis Jesuits music, I would caution against going completely cold turkey. I think a gradual move towards more traditional music and styles is the right way to go. If you keep people happily participating while you make subtle changes, pretty soon those changes aren’t so subtle anymore and you’ve brought people to a higher standard, while keeping them happily participating.

As benedictgal indicated, there will be a new translation of the Mass approved in the next few years, so going with a permanent hymnal might be inadvisable.

You may wish to have your parish table this project until the new hymnals following the new translation can be reviewed. In the meantime, strive to program more traditional hymns (OCP’s Music Issue has them, although the language updates offend me as a music educator), download some of the Psalms and Propers from Chabanel, and slowly move them in the right direction.

Music like that which benedictgal is railing against in her post is ear candy… it’s like hard core drugs for the ears. If you suddenly take it away from someone, they’ll have aural withdrawl. Better to wean.
 
If your parish has grown accustomed to the folksy Glory and Praise/OCP/St. Louis Jesuits music, I would caution against going completely cold turkey. I think a gradual move towards more traditional music and styles is the right way to go. If you keep people happily participating while you make subtle changes, pretty soon those changes aren’t so subtle anymore and you’ve brought people to a higher standard, while keeping them happily participating.

As benedictgal indicated, there will be a new translation of the Mass approved in the next few years, so going with a permanent hymnal might be inadvisable.

You may wish to have your parish table this project until the new hymnals following the new translation can be reviewed. In the meantime, strive to program more traditional hymns (OCP’s Music Issue has them, although the language updates offend me as a music educator), download some of the Psalms and Propers from Chabanel, and slowly move them in the right direction.

Music like that which benedictgal is railing against in her post is ear candy… it’s like hard core drugs for the ears. If you suddenly take it away from someone, they’ll have aural withdrawl. Better to wean.
:rotfl: I LOVE this!!! Makes you feel good superficially, but so bad for you in the long run! hahaha!

I do agree with the advise about not purchasing permanent hymnals at this point. It would be a waste of money until the new translations are out. Think about all the money you’ll have to spend AGAIN to buy hymnals that are in line with the new translations.

Also, doing the weaning, especially with congregations that are used to the other kind of music is adviseable. One of the things I learned when I taught music is that you don’t start the kids out on the heavies like Brahms, Mahler and Richard Strauss. You’ll make them hate classical music. Start them off with light pieces from the classical period such as Mozart and Haydn or even a little bit of light Bach. Then move on with the lighter works of other composers and eventually to more heavier, recognizeable pieces like Beethoven’s “Ninth Symphony” or Tchaikovsky’s “1812 Overture”. It helps the ears of the novice listener to get used to the sound of these instruments and to grow appreciation and love for the music.

Same with getting congregations used to more traditional styles (which tend to be more classical in nature).
 
Why not just go cold turikey from OCP and try either the St. Michael or the Adoremus hymnal? The St. Louis Jesuits represent some of the worst in music. It is too dated, too 70s and too folksy.

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass deserves music that is compatible with the incredible and awesome mysteries that unfold before us at every liturgy.

I realize that this is harsh. However, you don’t have to worry about questinable doctrine, use of the unprounanceable name of God and inclusive language. Furthermore, you will also be able to find suitable Mass parts that your parish can sing that do not compromise the integrity of the translations by paraphrasing.

The only caveat is that these hymnals should be paperback. The reason I say this is because in about a couple of years, more or less, we will be having a new translation of the prayers and propers of the Mass. This will bring us into conformity with Liturgiam Authenticam.

As for the hmnals, Ignatius Press has the ones i suggested on their website. If you decide to go with GIA, ask the publishing company if you can get hold of the original Worship III hymnals (without the readings), as you won’t have to fool with inclusive language.
I second all of the above. However, If you can’t get the original Worship III hymnals, the current one is not absolute, total poison with inclusive language. I rate it as a good B+. Adoremus is terrific but it’s too small – under 200 hymns, if I recall. But all of 'em are pure gold.
 
Actually looking for one that will be around a while. However, the case could be made for a stop gap until the liturgy revisions are made, if it is cost effective. Right now we have OCP Glory and Praise Classic Edition and Flor y Canto First edition and United in Christ 2009. The hymnal(s) will replace the G&P and FyC.
Wow! That’s quite a lineup. I’m assuming financing/budget really isn’t a concern in this issue, right?
Why not just go cold turikey from OCP and try either the St. Michael or the Adoremus hymnal? The St. Louis Jesuits represent some of the worst in music. It is too dated, too 70s and too folksy.
Well now, that’s just your opinion, isn’t it?

If a congregation and choir have grown accustomed to singing those types of “folky” songs, then it wouldn’t exactly be the most wise move to all at once remove them entirely from the “cycle” if your interests are toward congregational participation.
I usually go into CCLI and look at the public domain VERSIONS before I decide what to put in the worship aids and what to practice with the choir.
Wait, what do you mean by worship aids?
I am also not so sure that all songs old are good nor are all songs new bad. One must look at the theology, the cadence and the heart of it to make the cuts.
Make the “cuts?” The whole point of a Catholic hymnal is that its editors have put together a collection of songs that are acceptable for use within a liturgical setting.

OCP is a Catholic company. There are priests and theologians on staff who review the materials before they even make it into the hymnals. Someone at OCP is really not doing his or her job if you need to examine the theology of a song for soundness before choosing it.
Perhaps I started in the middle of the question rather that the beginning. Maybe the better questions should be:

What is the criteria that we should apply when reviewing and selecting a music resource for a particular congregation?
It’s a question that only that particular congregation can answer. You need to not only look at what’s best liturigically speaking, but also at what kind of music is going to get the congregation involved in song. What type of music do they like to sing?

Then, you can consider stuff like the “freebies” that come with the hymnal package and all the ancillary materials that you may or may not have to be, the finances of the investment, how long they’ll be around, and on and on.

The very first thing you need to do is have a metting at church to discuss this, because it sounds like a pretty imporant decision is going to be made and I don’t think it’s fair to you (or to the rest of the parish) that you should figure everything out for yourself. I should ask, are you the music director at your church?
 
OCP is a Catholic company. There are priests and theologians on staff who review the materials before they even make it into the hymnals. Someone at OCP is really not doing his or her job if you need to examine the theology of a song for soundness before choosing it.

It’s a question that only that particular congregation can answer. You need to not only look at what’s best liturigically speaking, but also at what kind of music is going to get the congregation involved in song. What type of music do they like to sing?

Then, you can consider stuff like the “freebies” that come with the hymnal package and all the ancillary materials that you may or may not have to be, the finances of the investment, how long they’ll be around, and on and on.

The very first thing you need to do is have a metting at church to discuss this, because it sounds like a pretty imporant decision is going to be made and I don’t think it’s fair to you (or to the rest of the parish) that you should figure everything out for yourself. I should ask, are you the music director at your church?
I would take issue with some of your comments becamse, as I have seen in reviewing a great deal of the OCP arsenal, much of its music is more along the lines of the horizontal (me/we/us) as opposed to the vertical (directed towards God). In fact, some of these songs are not even fit for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

It is as though the folks at OCP have not read any of the authoritative documents of the Holy See concerning sacred music, let alone any of the writings of the Supreme Pontifss. This statement from Pope John Paul II is perfectly applicable to most of what is in the OCP collection:
. In following the course of the teachings of Saint Pius X and of the Second Vatican Council, it is above all necessary to emphasize that music destined for the sacred rites must have as its point of reference sanctity: it in fact “will be the more holy the more closely it is united to the liturgical action”. Precisely because of this, “not all that which stands outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross the threshold”, sagely affirmed my venerated Predecessor Paul VI, commenting upon a decree of the Council of Trent and clarified that “if it does not at once possess the sense of prayer, of dignity and beauty, music – instrumental and vocal – by this fact is precluded from admission into the sacred and religious realm”.
On the other hand, the category of “sacred music” today has undergone such a broadening of meaning as to include repertoire that cannot enter into the celebration without violating the spirit and the norms of the Liturgy itself.
The reform effected by Saint Pius X had specifically in view the purification of Church music from the contamination of profane theatrical music, which in many countries had polluted liturgical music repertoire and praxis. This is also to be considered attentively in our times, as I have placed in evidence in the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia: that not all expressions of the figurative arts and of music are capable “of adequately expressing the Mystery worshipped in the fullness of the Church’s faith”. As a consequence, not all musical forms can be considered suitable for liturgical celebrations.
And, of course, the very telling statement that Pope Benedict made about liturgical song in Sacramentum Caritatis, where the musician-Pope notes that:
  1. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that “the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love” (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. ***Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons ***(129).
Furthermore, the Spanish songs have some serious errors. One has tinges of liberation theology. The parts of the Mass do not even conform to Liturgiam Authenticam, as the composers take license with the words and paraphrase them. The problem here is widespread in Spanish, but, the Englsih versions also have their issues as well.

As far as I can tell, one can have 20 theologians looking at what goes into a music book; however, if these folks aren’t on the same page as the Church, then, maybe the book is not worth having.

You also have the issue of inclusive language to consider. Liturgiam Authenticam clearly states that the Trinity must be referred to as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. However, Father is replaced by Creator and other names. According to a power-point presentation the USCCB made a couple of years ago, a minuscle 10% of songs used in the Mass today make scant reference to God the Father.
 
Benedictgal, you’re my favorite poster in the Catholic Answers Forum. 🙂
 
OCP is a pretty nefarious, money-grubbing, advancement of liberal ideas outfit, if you ask me, but benedictgal, you’re again trying to use documents to back up your own taste in music. There’s nothing in those documents that would make the music of the St. Louis Jesuits unfit for Mass. The documents you repeatedly quote only say that some music is unfit for Mass, but they give no concrete litmus test for a certain hymn or piece’s aesthetic fitness for Mass.

In a sense you’re backing up your opinion with documents that only entitle you to have such an opinion. What training or degrees do you have to discern a musical selection’s aesthetic fitness for Mass?
 
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