Hypocrisy and Right vs. Left Wing

[SoCalRC]

Another part is that the programs we have tend to lock people into poverty, generation after generation.

You say these things, but I am at a loss at what they are based on.

Poverty rates plummetted after WW-II. Gee, we were pretty much the lone industrial country left in the world whose industrial capacity had not been bombed and we gave an astounding percentage of GI’s a free four year higher education. This would seem to match my assertion that investments a middle class tend to pay off.

If we look at the actual graph, we can see that poverty declined in the immediate aftermath of Johnson’s policies, but then leveled off. Since the rate did not significantly change, one might assert that there is no evidence that Johnson’s policies helped, but there is also no evidence that they hurt, as you claim.

Now we see a basic ‘saw tooth’ pattern, a decrease under Clinton, an increase under Bush, but there does appear to be a ‘floor’ of sorts. But it is illogical to blame the floor on Johnson or his policies, since much of his safety net has long since been abandoned, or twisted into corporate welfare.

One dangerous thing to do is downplay the meaning of ‘small swings’ in rate. The argument ‘things are only a little worse under Bush’ is a relative one. Compared to the huge post WW-II shift in prosperity, it is small. But if you look at the top of the chart, which shows millions of people effected, you get a glimpse of what those ‘small’ changes mean in true human cost.

 

[BamaRider]

SoCal said-

Poverty rates plummetted after WW-II. Gee, we were pretty much the lone industrial country left in the world whose industrial capacity had not been bombed and we gave an astounding percentage of GI’s a free four year higher education. This would seem to match my assertion that investments a middle class tend to pay off.
If

Hey! Your talking about me! Does this mean I can get checks?? We need some middle class investment and I the perfect example of that. I’m as middle class as they come, but all I get is my pension garnised for fed tax, now the SoCal says I should get a check, and I agree. Show me the money!

 

[LCMS_No_More]

SoCal said-

Hey! Your talking about me! Does this mean I can get checks?? We need some middle class investment and I the perfect example of that. I’m as middle class as they come, but all I get is my pension garnised for fed tax, now the SoCal says I should get a check, and I agree. Show me the money!

Um…I think he’s talking about investment in things that promote the middle class (i.e., higher education) as well as policies that empower the middle class (workplace protections and trade policies that protect American workers). In fact, I’m certain that’s what he means.

 

[BamaRider]

You mean I’m NOT gonna get a check??

Y’all don’t wanna “invest” in me?? Now that ain’t right. I’m middle class and I demand to be “invested” in. I have a pay pal account, instead of going down the state offices etc and doing all that paperwork, lets just do a end run. Y’all get out your American Express and debit cards, and “invest” in me. Same thing ain’t it? Why do we need a middle man (gummit) when direct depoist works just fine, your account to mine!

Send me a PM for details. :tiphat:

 

[goofyjim]

Actually, folks on the right are much more concerned. On the right, they, for example, help people find new jobs. We want people to be constructively employed.

People are much more capable than one might suspect.

Nothing to do with ideologies.

Just help folks to find a job.

I would believe that if we targeted the tax cuts to create jobs here in the states instead of shipping htme overseas. Instead what we have is big corporations keeeping their income, the government having less revenue because whatever jobs are created are elsewhere and the folks here can’t find jobs anymore. Let’s start directing those tax cuts and tell corporations they can only have them if they create jobs here rather than overseas.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

You mean I’m NOT gonna get a check??

Y’all don’t wanna “invest” in me?? Now that ain’t right. I’m middle class and I demand to be “invested” in. I have a pay pal account, instead of going down the state offices etc and doing all that paperwork, lets just do a end run. Y’all get out your American Express and debit cards, and “invest” in me. Same thing ain’t it? Why do we need a middle man (gummit) when direct depoist works just fine, your account to mine!

Send me a PM for details. :tiphat:

This is a good example of reductio ad absurdum.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

I would believe that if we targeted the tax cuts to create jobs here in the states instead of shipping htme overseas. Instead what we have is big corporations keeeping their income, the government having less revenue because whatever jobs are created are elsewhere and the folks here can’t find jobs anymore. Let’s start directing those tax cuts and tell corporations they can only have them if they create jobs here rather than overseas.

VERY well said!

 

[SoCalRC]

You mean I’m NOT gonna get a check??

Y’all don’t wanna “invest” in me?? Now that ain’t right. I’m middle class and I demand to be “invested” in. I have a pay pal account, instead of going down the state offices etc and doing all that paperwork, lets just do a end run. Y’all get out your American Express and debit cards, and “invest” in me. Same thing ain’t it? Why do we need a middle man (gummit) when direct depoist works just fine, your account to mine!

Send me a PM for details. :tiphat:

We do invest in you, substantially. Social Security and Medicare largely free you from a burden of responsibility towards your parents and grandparents so you can invest in your children. Things like the mortgage interest tax credit allow you to accumulate potential generational assets.

You’ve stated that your father served in WW-II, so there is a high probability that we, collectively, paid for a four year higher education for him, which may well have been your family’s invitation into the middle class in the first place.

We also invest, collectively in your state. The county and state that I live in pay in more to the Federal pool than we take out. Your state takes out more than it pays in. Vern has argued this means you and your fellow citizens are lazy, I would argue that it just means you have less opportunity and more obstacles.

Though, having put a plant in Mobile, I must admit that Vern’s ideas have occassionally tempted me.

 

[SoCalRC]

I would believe that if we targeted the tax cuts to create jobs here in the states instead of shipping htme overseas. Instead what we have is big corporations keeeping their income, the government having less revenue because whatever jobs are created are elsewhere and the folks here can’t find jobs anymore. Let’s start directing those tax cuts and tell corporations they can only have them if they create jobs here rather than overseas.

+2 (with LCMS being +1)

I am amazed at how little howling people have done at just what has occured in our Iraq and Afghanistan spending. A plentitude of $2+B no bid contracts, with the jobs going to the cheapest international labor available and the companies slipping offshore to even avoid paying US corporate taxes.

 

[BamaRider]

We do invest in you, substantially. Social Security and Medicare largely free you from a burden of responsibility towards your parents and grandparents so you can invest in your children. Things like the mortgage interest tax credit allow you to accumulate potential generational assets.

You’ve stated that your father served in WW-II, so there is a high probability that we, collectively, paid for a four year higher education for him, which may well have been your family’s invitation into the middle class in the first place.

We also invest, collectively in your state. The county and state that I live in pay in more to the Federal pool than we take out. Your state takes out more than it pays in. Vern has argued this means you and your fellow citizens are lazy, I would argue that it just means you have less opportunity and more obstacles.

Though, having put a plant in Mobile, I must admit that Vern’s ideas have occassionally tempted me.

So all this means I’m not a gonna get a check?

 

[LCMS_No_More]

So all this means I’m not a gonna get a check?

I know you can read.

Didn’t he say something about Social Security? That’s usually a check or direct deposit (an electronic check).

 

[SoCalRC]

So all this means I’m not a gonna get a check?

A check for social security is normal, though increasingly things like the refund from the mortgage interest credit come as direct deposits.

Some of these things are funds spent indirectly on your behalf.

LCMS is jumping to the conclussion that you are being intentionally obtuse and intellectually dishonest. However, the Catechism instructs me to always give the statements of others the most charitable interpretation. So, assuming your confusion is sincere, it is possible that you have been determined to be mentally incompetent to manage your own financial affairs. This does not make you a lesser person, it just means that someone else is helping to insure your financial best interests.

The normal way of handling that where I live would be a conservatorship. The laws vary from state to state, but in all cases that person (or persons) primary responsibility is to your well being, so you have the right to request information about financial dealings done on your behalf. Most will welcome your involvement in financial decision making to the extent you are able. However, you must remember that they have to ultimately follow their best judgement.

If there is some question of mental competency with regards to financial management, but you are either unsure of your status, or have real doubts about your best interests being protected, I could try to help. I have legal representation in Mobile and would be willing to instruct them to look into your situation.

If LCMS is correct in interpretting your remarks as a mean spirited alternative to making a salient point, I will still try to help. I will pray for you. Honestly, having almost always had the world of words open to me, it strikes me as incredibly sad that a person could be in the position of desperately wanting to make a point, but having nothing of relevance to say.

 

[ribozyme]

I admire your energy in continually finding creative ways of condemning all things Republican but you need to recognize that when you create a laundry list of supposed failures, if you include things that are transparently untrue you undermine the entire rant. For example, the unemployment rate for the previous two years never once went above 5.0%. It wasn’t until last month that the rate finally exceeded this (quite low) level - it reached 5.1%. By comparison, the unemployment rate in Germany, Europe’s largest economy, was 8.6% at the end of February '08 (down from over 10% the previous February).

Ender

The headline unemployment rate for Sweden is about 5% and in Denmark it is about 2.8%. Denmark has “arbejdsmarkedspolitiske foranstaltninger” which also reduces the unemployment rate too. Sweden also has programs called “AMS-åtgärder” which reduces the unemployment rate too.

 

[BamaRider]

Man you libs have NO sense of humor. Why do y’all take things sooooooooo serious? Alas it is the world the lib lives in. Doom and gloom and everything is rotten and out to get me.

SoCal said this to start off with-

Poverty rates plummetted after WW-II. Gee, we were pretty much the lone industrial country left in the world whose industrial capacity had not been bombed and we gave an astounding percentage of GI’s a free four year higher education. This would seem to match my assertion that investments a middle class tend to pay off.
If

The part I really liked was when he said “investments for the middle class tend to pay off.” I’m pretty middle class, so I wanna be “invested” by some libs. So insted of signing up for a govt program I was gonna get y’all to make a direct depoist to my pay pay account. I take AE and all debit cards. But noooooooooo y’all don’t wanna do that. Now I wanna know why I can’t be “vested” like some folks.

So LCM came back all upset and said THIS-

I know you can read.

Didn’t he say something about Social Security? That’s usually a check or direct deposit (an electronic check).

Dang I’m still 15 years away from a SSI check, if it stays solvent, so ALL you young folks out there better get a* job *start payin in the system so I can get *my *money LOL.

But I want a check now for no other reason then a I want one, heck millions of folks are doin it, but y’all don’t say a word about them, but when ole Guy wants to get “vested” y’all jump up and down and say I am being difficult.

But wait the SoCal is gonna come to my rescue! He’s puttin this out-

The normal way of handling that where I live would be a conservatorship. The laws vary from state to state, but in all cases that person (or persons) primary responsibility is to your well being, so you have the right to request information about financial dealings done on your behalf. Most will welcome your involvement in financial decision making to the extent you are able. However, you must remember that they have to ultimately follow their best judgement.

If there is some question of mental competency with regards to financial management, but you are either unsure of your status, or have real doubts about your best interests being protected, I could try to help. I have legal representation in Mobile and would be willing to instruct them to look into your situation.

So you know lawyers in Mobile (about 3 hours south) that can get me a govt check? Would that be one of the 1-800 lawyer guys that say, "Been denied SSI disability claim? Then see ME, I’ll get ya the govt check ya deserve! And if I can prove to some govt paper shuffler I’m not mentally competent (y’alls words) enough take care of my financial matters I can get a monthly check?

If that’s all ya gotta do, how many checks ya reckon Vern could qualify for? I hear up in the Ozarks, those folks can get really unstable. LOL.

Y’all are too much!! And I thought this was just gonna be another boring day on CAF.

 

[SoCalRC]

Man you libs have NO sense of humor. Why do y’all take things sooooooooo serious? Alas it is the world the lib lives in. Doom and gloom and everything is rotten and out to get me.

Humor is difficult to define, but it is generally divided into different types. A clever play on words, or a sly reference to something topical would be called ‘high brow’.

By any measurement of a reasonably functioning human brain, society spends a considerable amount of money on you. Everything from a public education to an infrastructure for your basic needs. Since you reported you worked for a municipal government and retired with a pension, it is reasonable to assert that society has paid you a check written against government revenue virtually every moment of your adult life.

And, of course, we’ve paid significant portions of your healthcare and will continue to do so until, literally, the moment you die. So even assuming you cannot make the mental leap for other societal investments in your well being, the fact that you ‘receive checks’ should be obvious to anyone of even modest intellectual capacity.

Since you persisted in claiming to not ‘understand’, your ‘humor’, if any, would consist solely of mimicing a developmental disability. There is no other ‘point’. This type of humor is generally referred to as ‘low brow’. It is also is distinctly non-Christian, since it mocks the weakest (and, in fact, some of the most courageous) individuals in our society.

Since it is incorrect to presume non-Christian intent, I responded as if you could not, in fact, make the rudimentary mental leap in question. It is not wholly without foundation. You may recall indicating in another thread that you are 52, hence too young to have volunteered during the Vietnam war.

However, the Vietnam War ended in April of 1975, 33 years ago. 52 - 33 = 19. You may have been 12 when my lung collapsed after being riddled with metal and bone fragments, but you were 18 when my last close friend died under enemy fire.

If, as you profess, you were 16 during the 1972 draft lottery, it is difficult to believe that you were oblivious to the state of the war or the politics surrounding it. This leaves us with multiple interpretations, perhaps you were “too” something, but not “too young” to serve your country while in a state of war. But again, we want to look for a kindlier interpretation of your remarks. Maybe you had issues, perhaps you are confused about your own age, maybe 52-33 = 12 is the sort of mistake you make all the time…

To be honest, my own Christian Conscience is far from perfect. I am going through the motions of the Catechism, and my offer of works on your behalf is genuine. But my own interpretation of your remarks has always been similiar to LCMS’s. Viewed in that light, it could be honestly asserted that I have been engaging in a little sharp humor of my own. A form often referred to as ‘wry’.

In other words, you are now saying ‘gosh, don’t you stupid libs know I was mocking?’ To find the wry part of the responses one most understand that the answer to that query has always been ‘yes’.

 

[Ender]

Ah yes, the cling to one statistic approach. There is a little problem with comparing the two statistics, people don’t ‘fall off’ the European metric as they do in the US.

At least I provided some statistics as opposed to unsubstantiated allegations; it’s not my fault the data don’t support your claim. There is certainly a difference in comparing European unemployment statistics with those in the US and if you think you can make the case that Germany’s unemployment is less than ours, go for it. In the mean time, there is nothing in our unemployment statistics that supports your earlier contention.

Ribozyme:

The headline unemployment rate for Sweden is about 5% and in Denmark it is about 2.8%.

Perhaps, but this does not support the claim that the US economy has failed to provide jobs. If unemployment is at 5% in Sweden - good for them. Their economy is doing a good job … and if our rate is also at that level then ours is doing an equally good job.

I understand the apples v oranges comparison of US and European statistics but apparently that goes on within Europe as well. This link indicates that changes in the way Sweden calculates its unemployed pushed their rate above 6% near the end of 2007.

eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2007/08/articles/se0708039i.htm

I didn’t find statistics for Denmark but did encounter this interesting piece of information. As to whether or not this is something they should be pleased with is another question.

*“The very high rate of labour force participation in Denmark is due to the proportion of married women working, which by international standards is relatively high.”
*
denmark.dk/en/menu/AboutDenmark/EconomyProduction/TradeIndustryAndLabourMarket/TheLabourMarket/?WBCMODE=PresentationUnpublished

Ender

 

[SoCalRC]

At least I provided some statistics as opposed to unsubstantiated allegations; it’s not my fault the data don’t support your claim. There is certainly a difference in comparing European unemployment statistics with those in the US and if you think you can make the case that Germany’s unemployment is less than ours, go for it. In the mean time, there is nothing in our unemployment statistics that supports your earlier contention.

Which assertion is that, that the economy is faltering? That job growth has failed to keep pace with population growth for the entire Bush presidency and that the job market is now contracting? That wages have been stagnant?

It seems odd that you constantly call me intellectually dishonest, but the threads die when I challenge you to support your accusation. Case in point, you’ve called me grossly in error in my interpretation of Chruch documents, but in two threads I have broken down an entire document section and you have failed to reply in kind.

Likewise here, you are asserting I am being dishonest, but all I have really asserted is that one statistic does not properly reflect the US economy, further, the unemployement numbers mean very different things in different countries. But I’m happy to argue the point of view that the US economy is currently in dire shape.

So if you really want to discuss the health of the US economy, let’s do so. It might land you a job with the administration, since no one else wants to defend that fiscal record right now.

 

[goofyjim]

Which assertion is that, that the economy is faltering? That job growth has failed to keep pace with population growth for the entire Bush presidency and that the job market is now contracting? That wages have been stagnant?

It seems odd that you constantly call me intellectually dishonest, but the threads die when I challenge you to support your accusation. Case in point, you’ve called me grossly in error in my interpretation of Chruch documents, but in two threads I have broken down an entire document section and you have failed to reply in kind.

Likewise here, you are asserting I am being dishonest, but all I have really asserted is that one statistic does not properly reflect the US economy, further, the unemployement numbers mean very different things in different countries. But I’m happy to argue the point of view that the US economy is currently in dire shape.

So if you really want to discuss the health of the US economy, let’s do so. It might land you a job with the administration, since no one else wants to defend that fiscal record right now.

Everyone admits we are in a recession except the president. What is he afraid of? Going out on a bad note?

 

[Al_Masetti]

Everyone admits we are in a recession except the president. What is he afraid of? Going out on a bad note?

Maybe we aren’t.

 

[BamaRider]

The SoCal made this comment-

By any measurement of a reasonably functioning human brain, society spends a considerable amount of money on you. Everything from a public education to an infrastructure for your basic needs. Since you reported you worked for a municipal government and retired with a pension, it is reasonable to assert that society has paid you a check written against government revenue virtually every moment of your adult life.

Not exaclty. I *earned * (foregin concept to many in this country) my pension and healthcare benefits by working for 26 years, and I might add my fire dept career was exemplary and let it go at that. But the truth be told I loved the fire dept and would have done the job for free.

Since you persisted in claiming to not ‘understand’, your ‘humor’, if any, would consist solely of mimicing a developmental disability. There is no other ‘point’. This type of humor is generally referred to as ‘low brow’. It is also is distinctly non-Christian, since it mocks the weakest (and, in fact, some of the most courageous) individuals in our society.

The humor refereed to here is the fact I could go down to local whatever office, whine and moan loud enough to some govt paper shuffler and leave outta there with a monthly disability check, a total scam becuse I’m about as fit as ya can get. I was pointing ou the absurdity of such a thing, because it happens all the time, and if my premise that those folks need to get off their rears and go get a job upsets folks, so be it.

Awwwwwww now ya poking fun at my mental capacity with this

Since it is incorrect to presume non-Christian intent, I responded as if you could not, in fact, make the rudimentary mental leap in question. It is not wholly without foundation. You may recall indicating in another thread that you are 52, hence too young to have volunteered during the Vietnam war.

However, the Vietnam War ended in April of 1975, 33 years ago. 52 - 33 = 19. You may have been 12 when my lung collapsed after being riddled with metal and bone fragments, but you were 18 when my last close friend died under enemy fire.

If, as you profess, you were 16 during the 1972 draft lottery, it is difficult to believe that you were oblivious to the state of the war or the politics surrounding it. This leaves us with multiple interpretations, perhaps you were “too” something, but not “too young” to serve your country while in a state of war. But again, we want to look for a kindlier interpretation of your remarks. Maybe you had issues, perhaps you are confused about your own age, maybe 52-33 = 12 is the sort of mistake you make all the time

Ok lets straighten this out, cause I like to speak in terms EVERYONE can understand. I was born in 1955, so at the time you were wounded I was 12 or 13. I graduated in May 1973 at 17.I turned 18 in August and registered for the draft. It was either finished on in the last stages when I registered I can’t remember precisely. I do remember the lottery the preceeding months.

Most American troops had pulled out by 73, leaving behind a token force for garrison duty etc not saying there were no more casualties but there were no major ground operations taking place. I guess I coulda signed up, but I went to college instead. Now does that make me less American and not able to have opinions on stuff? But I’ll say this, if hada been drafted I would’ve done my duty. I was like a lot of 18 year olds I kicked around, went to school, and tried to avoid becoming adult as long as I could. I got married and found my calling in the fire dept a few years later, now does that satisfy your curiousity about my history? LOL.

Then this just cause I don’t understand it-

To be honest, my own Christian Conscience is far from perfect. I am going through the motions of the Catechism,

Does this mean you are not taking the CCC seriously?

Now what about investing in me? How come y’all will let the govt take money outta ya check for “investments” but not me?? You said middle class tax breaks tend to work, lemme prove it! I’m middle class and I got lots I can with y’alls money!

How come y’all don’t mind “investing” in a bunch of mostly worthless govt programs, but when I look for some “investing” y’all jump up and down? Hummmph I see how it is now. LOL. Ole Guy needs some help its “noooooooooooo.” Y’all don’t want to invest money in me, no let me phrase that, you don’t want your money to be ‘invested’, you want MY money to be "invested in who knows what myopic govt program that happens to be on this months menu.

Owell, Lost came back to on tonight and I need to see whats up with Sawyer and Kate.