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cynic
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is the causal relationship in that direction, or the other way round.
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vern_humphrey
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What difference does it make? We **know **there is a poverty cycle. We know lack of education is highly associated with poverty. And we know the worst schools are mostly in the poorest districts.
And we do nothing about it.
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cynic
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and it’s partly because of the market forces you advocate as quality control . The most qualified teachers go to teach in private schools where the pay is higher, or to public schools that have a better reputation, without all the ‘problem’ students, ie the ones in wealthier middle class areas. That leaves schools in poor areas with the rest. One obviouse solution - **force **good graduates to work in low-decile schools for a number of years. Oh but then you would say that noone would want to become a teacher then… but that’s the case anyway because people like you have for years attacked teaching as a profession, motivated by some pre-formed prejudice against the public system. It worked 40 years ago, why can’t it work now?
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vern_humphrey
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I don’t have any cattle, but I could swear I can smell bull.
The standard leftist solution – force people to do something.
How’s about we force** you**?
It didn’t work 40 years ago – I’m old enough to remember Sputnik (in '58) and the revelations about the inadequacy of the Public Education system that stirred up.
And as for prejudice – what’s the prejudice in accepting facts? Like the fact that about 30% of students who enter high school don’t graduate? Or the fact that foreign high school students do better than Americans in virtually every category? Or the fact that over 50% of Arkansas graduates who go on to college have to take remedial courses – an indication that more than half of the “best and brightest” graduated from high school without every achieving a high school standard of work?
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cynic
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If they’re going to work in a public system, then why not tell them where to go for a few years.I don’t have any cattle, but I could swear I can smell bull.
The standard leftist solution – force people to do something.
How’s about we force** you**?
The standard rightist solution - boil everything down to money. The only reason somebody with ambition will teach is because of the salary they could command in a private system. Too bad for all those poor families who can’t afford the high fees this demands.
Still I’m pretty sure there were higher standards of basic literacy and maths. This is **not **possible now?
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vern_humphrey
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Are you willing to be drafted?
The standard leftist solution - boil everything down to money. And then force people to do what you want in order to keep from paying them.
And too bad for all those kids in the government school system.
No doubt a government health system will work the same way – worst facilities in the poorest section of town.
“Maths?” Where did you go to school?
No – there were no standards then, and there are virtually none now. If there were, we wouldn’t have such a high school dropout rate.
Not as long as the Teacher’s Unions run the show, and the liberals don’t care about poor kids.
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Cajetan
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Bad Catholics on the “Right” definitely seem to get away with a lot more than bad Catholics on the “Left” from orthodox Catholics (note that this does not make the criticism that Leftist bad Catholics receive any less valid). The staunch Capitalist Catholic who feels that the homeless in his city should “just get lost” tends to be received more warmly than the staunch Socialist Catholic who feels that taxpayers should be forced by law to fund housing for the city’s homeless. Both positions are repugnant, but the Socialist is much more likely to bear the brunt of the hostility from the faithful.
Perhaps the feeling – which, I think, has validity – is that while it is a virtual impossibility to be a Leftist and a good Catholic at the same time, it is possible to be a right-winger and a good Catholic. The tenets of Conservatism certainly are more in line with what the Church teaches than are the tenets of Socialism, Communism, etc.
Perhaps the feeling – which, I think, has validity – is that while it is a virtual impossibility to be a Leftist and a good Catholic at the same time, it is possible to be a right-winger and a good Catholic. The tenets of Conservatism certainly are more in line with what the Church teaches than are the tenets of Socialism, Communism, etc.
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cynic
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…that’s right, firmly hit the ball back the way it came, no need to build a positive case. For eg. how to keep fees reasonable, or how to encourage real competition and choice for those without much to spend (how many schools can you have in one area anyway)
The principle objection to state involvement in this and other threads is not that it doesn’t work, it’s that services are *free *fro the user, providedwith money taken from citizens rather than by charity. A government funded voucher system would seem to contradict the values of the right. You could almost be a lefty:tsktsk:
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BamaRider
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I once stopped to check out a one room school house, in Fruita, Utah (near Capital Reef National Park). It is currently a museum.
I picked up a 5th or 6th grade english book from the late 1800s, that was used by the kids in that school. It read like a current high school lit book. I’m telling y’all the stuff in that book is over the heads of 50% of current high school kids in a typiical public school. And if you should send it to kids in the DC school district, might as well be written in a foreign lanquage.
Look at the writings of the forefathers. People like Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Patrick Henry or Robert E. Lee. Their command of the lanquage is like nothing you see today. They were all edcuated withoug the benefit of the govt.
Since the govt took over education it has been steadily dumbed down, but went in a absoulte free fall in the 70s, when the hippies of my generation, got their hands on the reigns of school systems throughout the country.
When that happened, nobody was accountable for anything anymore. Not the school board, the teachers, or the students. They made it impossible to fail anybody, because, "not fair to fail a kid, it will hurt his feelings, and he won’t feel good about himself.:
So many kids come from broken families, they don’t care if they get a education or not. They walk around the school with their pants hanging down, daring anybody to call them out on bad behavior, the whole thing is crazy. They have no discipline, no sense of what is right or wrong. I’d be a afraid to be a teacher in some of those places.
Thank God for the Sisters at Christ The KIng in the early 60s. They taught discipline, respect, and accountablity. If you don’t study, do your homework, respect others, they WILL fail you. And if you cause problems, you were sent home.
And these people keep pleading for more money, not enough is being done etc. Gimme a break.
I picked up a 5th or 6th grade english book from the late 1800s, that was used by the kids in that school. It read like a current high school lit book. I’m telling y’all the stuff in that book is over the heads of 50% of current high school kids in a typiical public school. And if you should send it to kids in the DC school district, might as well be written in a foreign lanquage.
Look at the writings of the forefathers. People like Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Patrick Henry or Robert E. Lee. Their command of the lanquage is like nothing you see today. They were all edcuated withoug the benefit of the govt.
Since the govt took over education it has been steadily dumbed down, but went in a absoulte free fall in the 70s, when the hippies of my generation, got their hands on the reigns of school systems throughout the country.
When that happened, nobody was accountable for anything anymore. Not the school board, the teachers, or the students. They made it impossible to fail anybody, because, "not fair to fail a kid, it will hurt his feelings, and he won’t feel good about himself.:
So many kids come from broken families, they don’t care if they get a education or not. They walk around the school with their pants hanging down, daring anybody to call them out on bad behavior, the whole thing is crazy. They have no discipline, no sense of what is right or wrong. I’d be a afraid to be a teacher in some of those places.
Thank God for the Sisters at Christ The KIng in the early 60s. They taught discipline, respect, and accountablity. If you don’t study, do your homework, respect others, they WILL fail you. And if you cause problems, you were sent home.
And these people keep pleading for more money, not enough is being done etc. Gimme a break.
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rlg94086
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Then why don’t “lefties” support voucher systems? They are anti-choice. Perhaps, they want to keep a poverty class right where they are. 
btw…Vern is for True Choice, not vouchers.
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vern_humphrey
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My, my – you’ve run out of ammunition and sunk to personal attacks already.
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ribozyme
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No, lefties are PRO-CHOICE… but if you want to know some reasons that lefties do not like school vouchers, go here:
btw…Vern is for True Choice, not vouchers.
epi.org/subjectpages/edu.cfm?CFID=989102&CFTOKEN=69708096
I haven’t read any papers on it, but that think tank did some work on that subject although the think tank’s specialities are labor markets, globalization, and living wages.
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vern_humphrey
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Lefties are pro-choice – but people cannot be allowed to make their own choices.
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BamaRider
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Vern sez-
Touche.
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BamaRider
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I checked the link provided Ribo, I really wanted to read it, but I didn’t make it past 2 paragraphs before I
You sit around and read this stuff ALL day?
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Al_Masetti
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When I was in Catholic high school 1956-1960 we got three years of science: a year each of biology, chemistry and physics plus four years of math and two languages (2-3 years each)… the only elective was a third year of Latin.
So, I’m curious … would some of the younger parents / younger posters comment on how much science and math high school students get these days? It would be helpful to the discussion.
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BamaRider
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Al Masetti received* THIS *for a high school education-
Now I’m curious, did the Sisters let y’all walk around with your pants hanging down?
Then asked-
I’m thinking, as a general rule, that doesn’t happen till college nowdays, if ever.
Now I’m curious, did the Sisters let y’all walk around with your pants hanging down?
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vern_humphrey
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Those low-hanging pants are there for efficiency. They only have to be emptied once a week.
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Al_Masetti
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Ummm… from grade 7 to grade 12 we had Brothers. And we had to wear white shirts, ties and suit jackets. Low riders had not yet been invented. I’m sure they are not permitted at that school even today. [But I will check to see if they have a Web site and what the dress code is today.]
stpetersboyshs.org/
Hmmm. Possibly they relaxed the dress code.
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Ender
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mary bobo:
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?Que? Are you responding to my comments??? I am a conservative. I have no idea how you interpreted my post but it clearly is not how I intended it so let me try again: we are obligated to judge arguments, not people and I oppose the denunciation of individuals by uncharitably ascribing to them base motivations that we cannot possibly know.
Ender
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