Hypocrisy in the Pews

[netmilsmom]

JKirkLVNV:

We’ll have to respectfully disagree, I guess. I’m glad to hear you don’t think I’m guilty of the heresy of modernism, I could take that off some of the radical traditionalists, but it would have been hard from someone whose arguments I’ve come to respect. Holy Advent to you and yours.

Of course I don’t!
We came to common ground on this many a time.
The banner carriers, the liturgical dance fans, the one’s who think a good experience is the goal over teaching the Cathechism (like my old DRE). They are the modernist and we agree that they are. They tick at things like genuflecting to the tabernacle (because Jesus is everywhere), they call Rosaries “repetative prayers”, that’s what we are fighting against. And when someone puts women who cover their heads in the same line as Rainbow Sash protestors, I can’t think of anything else.

Thank you so much for the well wishes and the same to you and yours!

I was really up this season until friends of mine dropped out of RCIA to go back to their Evangelical Church. While I know that they are good people who just didn’t find what they needed in my parish, I’m looking to see what we didn’t provide. They seemed very Catholic and great Apologists. It makes me sad. My hubby wants this to be different from what he grew up on, not a blend. I guess I just listen to him and see many of our parishes trying incorporate some things from Protestant churches to please everyone. That is not what we need. We need the wonderful community of the Protestant churches while we keep our Catholic roots.

Sadly, sometimes it doesn’t happen here.

 

[netmilsmom]

AltarMan:

Actually they are closer to judgements – particularly the way you employed “modernist.”

Again, opinion. No basis in fact.
Like one compares Rainbow Sash Protestors with women who cover their heads in prayer.
Who is being judgemental?

 

[AltarMan]

Lux_et_veritas:

…Please feel free any time to stop in my parish and tell my pastor that we should all form a line and stand during Holy Communion rather than use our Communion Rail.

You just hit the nail on the head – the abject arrogance of those who feel they know “better” than what the Church actually instructs.

Just because your pastor supports a communal posture that does match what the Church instructs in no way makes it correct or “better.”

 

[AltarMan]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Again, opinion. No basis in fact.
Like one compares Rainbow Sash Protestors with women who cover their heads in prayer.
Who is being judgemental?

You used “modernist” as a judement of others you happen not to agree with. It’s extremely common technique today.

You also misused the word (also quite common) – reference posting #105 on this thread for more information.

 

[netmilsmom]

AltarMan:

You just hit the nail on the head – the abject arrogance of those who feel they know “better” than what the Church actually instructs.

Like that one cannot be called Disobedient nor denied the Eucharist because he/she kneels as the Vatican stated?

 

[fix]

Lux_et_veritas:

People like yourself are quick to point out the faults of a person who is not being disobedient by kneeling, while ignoring the fault of a priest who attempts to force a person to stand. Instruction is one thing, bullying and denial are quite another.

If the Vatican really wanted to support the US “get me out of church quick so I can get to the diner” norm of standing, they would not have added the stipulation.

One last thing: Canon Law trumps the GIRM. The GIRM comprehends Canon Law, but people attempting to apply the GIRM violated Canon Law with their interpretation.

Please feel free any time to stop in my parish and tell my pastor that we should all form a line and stand during Holy Communion rather than use our Communion Rail.

More stuff I wish I said.

 

[fix]

AltarMan:

You just hit the nail on the head – the abject arrogance of those who feel they know “better” than what the Church actually instructs.

Just because your pastor supports a communal posture that does match what the Church instructs in no way makes it correct or “better.”

Where does She instruct one should not kneel or have a rail?

 

[netmilsmom]

AltarMan:

You used “modernist” as a judement of others you happen not to agree with. It’s extremely common.

Now who is labelling?
Read my post to JKirkLVNV. I’ve looked Modernists straight in the face. I have no need to label but classifying is clairification.

 

[slewi]

I don’t know Ham. Whenever Rome issues something like the GIRM, it seems that the USCCB always applies for and is granted special changes. So, what I am thinking, is maybe it’s better if we just followed Rome. Maybe we wouldn’t have all these questions. Their seem to be too many chiefs.

S

 

[Orionthehunter]

Here is why I don’t like labels: It assumes too much and can cause one to make characterizations that are effectively false (and once you do that, you probably have borne false witness against your neighbor-a very grave matter):

Mother: She comes to the traditional Mass, follows all the rules at Mass, volunteers for about every activity in the parish and goes to Eucharistic Adoration. You’d think she was a conservative. However, what you don’t know is she wasn’t married in the Church (in fact her first Marriage was in the Church and has never gotten an annullment) doesn’t go to confession, practices birth control, and recieves Communion.

High School Daughter: She goes to the very contemporary Mass where most of us might think we are at a revival, holds hands, if she read these debates about GIRM, rules, rubrics, posture, etc. she’d think WE were from Mars, wears shirts that sometimes show her belly and her hairstyle IS something from Mars, has excessive earrings and even one in her nose. She has a non-Catholic boyfriend and she kisses him when he drops her off at her Mass (what was she doing w/ this guy at 11:00 a.m.??? on a Sunday morning) and kisses him when he picks her up. You’d certainly think she is a liberal and probably a slut. However, what you don’t know is she is a virgin and gives chastity talks to Jr. High students, goes to Confession every two weeks, does Adoration at 5 a.m. so she can still get ready for school, the boyfriend picks her up for Mass because her family doesn’t attend Church and she doesn’t have a car. She kisses him out of extreme gratitude that he cares enough for her to help her get to Mass.

My point is that theological labels require us to make assumptions that we are incapable to make unless we know that person intimately. I happen to know both these people outlined above (they are not of the same family). But I can tell you one thing is that the theological label that fits these two people is not one that ANYONE would discern from the Mass they attend or the image they present.

 

[fix]

I think the labels used are discerned from reading posts and reading the logic used behind the posts.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Here is where I’m coming at:

In the U.S., we have a shortage of Priests which has required parish sizes to get bigger.

Most parishes have logistical reasons for most Masses to last for approximately one hour (some legitimate as in parking and space related issues and others is an acknowledgement that if Mass is too long marginal Catholics will just choose not to come). Considering the fact we are all part of the Body of Christ and that they are marginal partly by the failings of the less marginal Catholics, every lost Catholic is a mark against each and every one of us.

In order for our Pastor to have a meaningful homily, give proper pace and reverance to the Mass and still get done in the hour allowed (we have a severe parking problem such that longer Masses become a severe problem esp. in winter months), because of time we use 6 or 7 EMHC’s depending on if we have a Deacon at Mass. If kneeling were to become even slightly prevalent, we’d either need even more EMHC’s or Father would have to shorten his always meanignful homilies or increase the pace of the Mass.

The effective by-product of allowing kneeling is the rest the Mass would have to be sprint and we’d have to have EMHC’s all over the place resulting in chaos when it should be the most reverant part of the Mass.

Now to the “hypocracy” (which I think is too strong a word). Most of the people advocating kneeling are on threads promoting (rightly) that Mass needs to be reverant, that EMHC’s are used excessively, and that Catholics need to be more obediant to legitimate ecclesiastical authorities.

As above I hope I articulated that kneeling would decrease Mass reverance and increase the need for EMHC’s, I’d like to address the final question. The USCCB has properly and for the legitimate reasons outlined above asked for a adaptation to the Norm to apply in the U.S. In acknowledgement that standing alone isn’t sufficiently reverent, the USCCB has also instructed the faithful to make a reverent bow. Personally, the bow has given me an additional opportunity to say a little prayer like “my God and Savior” before stepping up to recieve the Eucharist and the bow conforms my body (posture) to my mind and spirit (I think this is the objective of those advocating kneeling).

And because of these very practical reasons, Pastors are charged with instructing the faithful who choose to kneel on the Norm and its rationale. Since universal kneeling isn’t a realistic option, I think the uniformity in standing w/ the precedent bow demonstrates great unity and reverence.

Finally, since most of the people who feel inclined to kneel are probably respected for their orthodoxy in their parish, I don’t think that Pastor’s challenge to make our brethren who are struggling to be more orthodox and submissive to the Church is being supported when these respected people flaunt his legitimate and practical instruction.

 

[SnorterLuster]

Orionthehunter:

Here is where I’m coming at:
Most parishes have logistical reasons for most Masses to last for approximately one hour (some legitimate as in parking and space related issues and others is an acknowledgement that if Mass is too long marginal Catholics will just choose not to come). Considering the fact we are all part of the Body of Christ and that they are marginal partly by the failings of the less marginal Catholics, every lost Catholic is a mark against each and every one of us.

In order for our Pastor to have a meaningful homily, give proper pace and reverance to the Mass and still get done in the hour allowed (we have a severe parking problem such that longer Masses become a severe problem esp. in winter months), because of time we use 6 or 7 EMHC’s depending on if we have a Deacon at Mass. If kneeling were to become even slightly prevalent, we’d either need even more EMHC’s or Father would have to shorten his always meanignful homilies or increase the pace of the Mass.

I understand what you are saying, but just a couple of points.

I have heard the parking argument for years, yet my childhood parish scheduled masses 90-120 minutes apart. I don’t think there is any rule that says masses have to be scheduled 60 minutes apart. Schedule masses 2 hours apart and the parking problem is solved. And you don’t have to rush the Mass.

I posted in another thread that my old parish use to give communion at the rail, on the tongue. Two priests were able to give the communion in no more time than it takes now using at least a half dozen stations with a dozen EMHCs and everyone standing. If time is a prime consideration, the problem is not people kneeling, the problem is people standing.

 

[Orionthehunter]

SnorterLuster:

I understand what you are saying, but just a couple of points.

I have heard the parking argument for years, yet my childhood parish scheduled masses 90-120 minutes apart. I don’t think there is any rule that says masses have to be scheduled 60 minutes apart. Schedule masses 2 hours apart and the parking problem is solved. And you don’t have to rush the Mass.

I posted in another thread that my old parish use to give communion at the rail, on the tongue. Two priests were able to give the communion in no more time than it takes now using at least a half dozen stations with a dozen EMHCs and everyone standing. If time is a prime consideration, the problem is not people kneeling, the problem is people standing.

We have three Masses on Sunday (8:00 a.m., 9:30, and 11:00 a.m. with only 30 minutes between them) and one Saturday night. Physically, there is absolutely no way we could only have two Masses on Sunday. To do so, would not only magnify the parking problem but you now have a worship space problem.

Regarding two Priests distributing both species in the same amount of time as a dozen EMHC’s, I’d love to see them do it reverantly.

 

[netmilsmom]

Orionthehunter:

Here is why I don’t like labels: It assumes too much and can cause one to make characterizations that are effectively false (and once you do that, you probably have borne false witness against your neighbor-a very grave matter):

My point is that theological labels require us to make assumptions that we are incapable to make unless we know that person intimately. I happen to know both these people outlined above (they are not of the same family). But I can tell you one thing is that the theological label that fits these two people is not one that ANYONE would discern from the Mass they attend or the image they present.

You are looking at people. We are seeing their writings and therefore they are sharing thoughts.
My Goddaughter is one of the best Catholics I know. She has Purple Hair and her ears are pierced in two places so she has a barbell going from side to side.
She would NEVER deny a person kneeling for communion nor covering her head. That is the difference here. It’s not what one does, it’s what one would deny another of. That is the label.
I have stated many a time, have your Life Teen or Charismatic Mass, but why deny us or call us Uber Pious when we want to do something Historically Catholic.

Anyone who wants it only one way is the Modernist. Those who show distain for traditional Catholic devotions. I can’t tell you how many times here people have stated that those who want a liturgy without innovation are “not Christian enough” or “are being Uber Pious, drawing attention to yourself”
Mostly, the traditional people just want the same opportunity to worship as we feel comfortable as those liturgical committee members. Many of us are not given that. Wonder why we get frustrated?
My home parish in Cleveland had one “traditional” mass at 9 and one "progressive"mass at 10:30. Everyone was happy, no one condemned the other. Now I find myself militant when my children are being taught that the way I worship is “Old Fashioned” and this is the way now.
And that is true only in some people’s minds.
God Bless Mother Angelica for validating our feelings.

 

[netmilsmom]

Orionthehunter:

We have three Masses on Sunday (8:00 a.m., 9:30, and 11:00 a.m.) and one Saturday night. Physically, there is absolutely no way we could only have two Masses on Sunday. To do so, would not only magnify the parking problem but you now have a worship space problem.

How about a later mass?
Our Sunday Masses are 7, 9:30, 11, 1:30, 6:30 and 8:30.
One Saturday Night.
We have a tiny parking lot. But even for the popular 9:30 (about 700 people attend) one can always find a spot.

 

[fix]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

How about a later mass?
Our Sunday Masses are 7, 9:30, 11, 1:30, 6:30 and 8:30.
One Saturday Night.
We have a tiny parking lot. But even for the popular 9:30 (about 700 people attend) one can always find a spot.

The idea that kneeling and parking spaces have some connection is well…a bit strained?

 

[Orionthehunter]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

You are looking at people. We are seeing their writings and therefore they are sharing thoughts.
My Goddaughter is one of the best Catholics I know. She has Purple Hair and her ears are pierced in two places so she has a barbell going from side to side.
She would NEVER deny a person kneeling for communion nor covering her head. That is the difference here. It’s not what one does, it’s what one would deny another of. That is the label.
I have stated many a time, have your Life Teen or Charismatic Mass, but why deny us or call us Uber Pious when we want to do something Historically Catholic.

Anyone who wants it only one way is the Modernist. Those who show distain for traditional Catholic devotions. I can’t tell you how many times here people have stated that those who want a liturgy without innovation are “not Christian enough” or “are being Uber Pious, drawing attention to yourself”
Mostly, the traditional people just want the same opportunity to worship as we feel comfortable as those liturgical committee members. Many of us are not given that. Wonder why we get frustrated?
My home parish in Cleveland had one “traditional” mass at 9 and one "progressive"mass at 10:30. Everyone was happy, no one condemned the other. Now I find myself militant when my children are being taught that the way I worship is “Old Fashioned” and this is the way now.
And that is true only in some people’s minds.
God Bless Mother Angelica for validating our feelings.

I am all for people trying to find the best way for them to worship with the greatest flexibility possible to accommodate as many expressions as possible. If your parish is such that an occassional kneeler wouldn’t be disruptive (causing undue attention or people tripping over you, or creating problems by extending Mass too much) and your Pastor doesn’t ask you to quit, I’m all for it. But if your Pastor asks you to quit for the reasons I articulated or other good reasons within the constraints of the USCCB instruction, I just hope that you will be open to his request and consider it seriously. You are obviously a good, devout Catholic and a good witness to others. I would hate to see a decision contrary to a request from your Pastor diminish your ability to be a good witness and example of support for your Pastor. Furthermore, just keep in mind that people who are having trouble submitting to Church Authority might misinterpret your affinity of kneeling as a sign that they too can pick and choose which instructions they accept. I think those of us who understand and appreciate what the Church means have a greater burden to make sure what we do isn’t misinterpreted.

Regarding, having more Masses into the afternoon, we only have one Priest. He is already maxed out physically with all of his responsibilities beyond just giving Mass. Our Pastor not only celebrates a great Mass but he has a special gift and charism with people hurting. Sunday afternoons are often spent with people like that (elderly, marriage or family problems, etc.) and we have RCIA on Sunday nights. Last year he performed over 40 weddings (sometimes two on a weekend) and of course a inner city parish w/ alsmost 1,000 families also has alot of funerals.

If you want to suggest more Masses to him, please make sure that I’m out of town and you might want to make sure your life insurance is paid.

 

[Orionthehunter]

fix:

The idea that kneeling and parking spaces have some connection is well…a bit strained?

Fix, please read Post #132. While you are doing it, you might also read my later responses to why we can’t add to the quantity of Masses or decrease the quantity to solve our parking problem. All of which requires us to operate with less than 30 minutes between Masses resulting in problems developing if Masses go beyond an hour.

Then read that if we were to institute kneeling within the physical constraints of our Church, our Pastor will have to quicken the pace of Mass and shorten his homily and add EMHC’s (making Communion chaotic rather than reverant). Seriously, I wouldn’t want to be present when my very orthodox and holy Priest when you suggested this practice and the effective by-product. He is the type of Pastor every parish in America would be proud to have.

 

[msproule]

fix:

The idea that kneeling and parking spaces have some connection is well…a bit strained?

All should read the USCCB document that describes why they prefer standing. Efficiency is not a listed reason. If that were the case, why not take the next step and request drive-thru service?