Hypocritical Contraception?

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actually you need not split hairs at all:
  • 2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:159
Thus the innate LANGUAGE that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory LANGUAGE, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.160*

where 160 is :
Paragraph 32 of FAMILIARIS CONSORTIO -JPII (1981)

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.htm
 
2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:159
Do you all notice how this is contradictive?

The first section of Par 2370 shows how natural methods are fine…
then the second section says this:
In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil
By it’s very definition is this last section not true for NFP?
It must most certainly be classified as an action that renders procreation impossible. (By Pro-NFP people’s own posted statistics).
In fact, ABC should be less of an evil if measured against this paragraph.

Things that make you go Hmmmmm…
 
Do you all notice how this is contradictive?

The first section of Par 2370 shows how natural methods are fine…
then the second section says this:

By it’s very definition is this last section not true for NFP?
It must most certainly be classified as an action that renders procreation impossible. (By Pro-NFP people’s own posted statistics).
In fact, ABC should be less of an evil if measured against this paragraph.

Things that make you go Hmmmmm…
Not at all. NFP is not an attempt to “render procreation impossible.” It is engaging in the marital embrace during a time when the woman is much less likely to conceive. If she does conceive, the child is welcomed into the loving arms of their parents.
 
Do you all notice how this is contradictive?

The first section of Par 2370 shows how natural methods are fine
then the second section says this:

[In contrast, "**every action
which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil ]

By it’s very definition is this last section not true for NFP?
It must most certainly be classified as an action that renders procreation impossible. (By Pro-NFP people’s own posted statistics).
In fact, ABC should be less of an evil if measured against this paragraph.

Things that make you go Hmmmmm…

The “infecundity” (infertile) periods are natural, that is what is being taught. This is spelled out in an in-depth reading of the Church documents. God did not intend conception as a direct result of each and every act of relations this is also spelled out.

“every action” refers to manmade interference in the natural process. The charting is deemed as knowledge of the design which is not the same as interference in the design

I hope that helps
 
Not at all. NFP is not an attempt to “render procreation impossible.” It is engaging in the marital embrace during a time when the woman is much less likely to conceive. If she does conceive, the child is welcomed into the loving arms of their parents.
Of course it is.
Ther are two purposes of NFP:
One to aid conception, and one to aviod conception.

When using NFP to “space children” you are still having sex, but making procreation impossible. By their own published statistics, NFP far more effective at avioding conceiving than ABC. It’s most certainly a contradiction.

I agree with your second line, that if a child is conceived you welcome him/her with open, loving arms…same would go for ABC, really. It depends on the couple. They can conceive through NFP and not want the child too…It’s the mentality, not the means.

NFP is no different from any other non-abortive contraception.
 
The “infecundity” (infertile) periods are natural, that is what is being taught. This is spelled out in an in-depth reading of the Church documents. God did not intend conception as a direct result of each and every act of relations this is also spelled out.

“every action” refers to manmade interference in the natural process. The charting is deemed as knowledge of the design which is not the same as interference in the design

I hope that helps
Excellent point. In the end, the anti-Nfp argument is stuck in a rut: either married people may only engage in sex during fertile periods (in which you would need NFP to tell you that.), or married people must willfully remain in ignorance of their cycles. Consequentialist thinking is not just wrong, it’s stupid.

And just for fun, how many nfp-is-contraception arguments can one find coming from bishops?
 
The “infecundity” (infertile) periods are natural, that is what is being taught. This is spelled out in an in-depth reading of the Church documents. God did not intend conception as a direct result of each and every act of relations this is also spelled out.

“every action” refers to manmade interference in the natural process. The charting is deemed as knowledge of the design which is not the same as interference in the design

I hope that helps
Exactly. Artificial birth control methods frustrate the very possibility of conception by creating a physical barrier, hormonally influencing the body so an egg doesn’t naturally release and/or attach to the uterus, or chemically destroying the sperm. This is what the catechism means by “rendering procreation impossible.” They are physical acts to frustrate the procreative nature of the act itself. The conjugal act using NFP is unchanged/unchallenged.
 
The “infecundity” (infertile) periods are natural, that is what is being taught. This is spelled out in an in-depth reading of the Church documents. God did not intend conception as a direct result of each and every act of relations this is also spelled out.

“every action” refers to manmade interference in the natural process. The charting is deemed as knowledge of the design which is not the same as interference in the design

I hope that helps
And yet the Catechism states that every action should conform to these requirements, and even the teachings of sex in the Church…every action should have a pro-creative and unitive aspect to it.
This means every time a couple engages in intimacy. That is how the CCC is written. And that is how it’s taught and enforced. Any deviation from that results in mortal sin, by the teachings themselves.

So there are teachings that are enforced by mortal sin that state that every act should have the unitive and procreative aspects to them, but then other teachings that state that if this act occur during the infertile time, it’s not necessary for the pro-creative aspect to be present? I’m sorry that’s even more contradictive.

Charting is just another means to have sex but avoid conceiving. And it’s man made. It’s just another contraceptive tool. Condoms, spermacide, thermometers, charts, it’s all tools to avoid conceiving.

I agree that NFP is just a mind game.
 
Of course it is.
Ther are two purposes of NFP:
One to aid conception, and one to aviod conception.

When using NFP to “space children” you are still having sex, but making procreation impossible. By their own published statistics, NFP far more effective at avioding conceiving than ABC. It’s most certainly a contradiction.

I agree with your second line, that if a child is conceived you welcome him/her with open, loving arms…same would go for ABC, really. It depends on the couple. They can conceive through NFP and not want the child too…It’s the mentality, not the means.

NFP is no different from any other non-abortive contraception.
This is blatantly false. Procreation is not impossible. While a couple using ABC could have the attitude of accepting a child, they are taking physical steps to prevent conception from being possible. NFP does not do that.
 
This is blatantly false. Procreation is not impossible.
It’s even less impossible with ABC.

But the CCC mentions that impossibility :" In contrast, “every action that renders procreation impossible is intrinsically evil”

So, NFP should be more intrinsically evil than ABC.
 
From Catholic Answers: Is Natural Family Planning a Heresy?
Let us now return to the subject of natural family planning. It was first necessary to clarify the question about the necessity or non-necessity of AAS promulgation in order to forestall a rigorist objection to the argument below. It so happens that several key magisterial documents approving NFP were never published in the AAS. And because they were never published even in the English-language version of Denzinger (a key source of pre-Vatican II doctrine for laymen such as Ibranyi, who publicly admits his ignorance of Latin), these decisions have remained unknown to those Catholics who denounce NFP as a recent “modernist” aberration or heresy. I have never seen any of those decisions cited, or even referred to, in rigorist attacks on the use of periodic continence.

The first time Rome spoke on the matter was 1853, when the Sacred Penitentiary answered a dubium (a formal request for an official clarification) submitted by the bishop of Amiens, France. He asked, “Should those spouses be reprehended who make use of marriage only on those days when (in the opinion of some doctors) conception is impossible?” The reply was: “After mature examination, we have decided that such spouses should not be disturbed [or disquieted], provided they do nothing that impedes generation” (quoted in J. Montánchez, Teología Moral 654, my translation). By the expression “impedes generation,” it is obvious the Vatican meant the use of onanism (or coitus interruptus, now popularly called “withdrawal”), condoms, etc. Otherwise the reply would be self-contradictory.

The next time the issue was raised was in 1880, when the Sacred Penitentiary issued a more general response . The precise question posed was this: “Whether it is licit to make use of marriage only on those days when it is more difficult for conception to occur?” The response was: “Spouses using the aforesaid method are not to be disturbed; and a confessor may, with due caution, suggest this proposal to spouses, if his other attempts to lead them away from the detestable crime of onanism have proved fruitless.” (This decision was published in Nouvelle Revue Théologique 13 [1881]: 459–460 and in Analecta Iuris Pontificii 22 [1883], 249.)

One could not ask for a more obvious and explicit proof that more than eighty years before Vatican II, Rome saw a great moral difference between NFP (as we now call it) and contraceptive methods, which Catholic moralists then referred to as onanism.

This was the doctrine and pastoral practice that all priests learned in seminary from the mid-nineteenth century onward. Before Pius XI was elected, Blessed Pius IX, Leo XIII, St. Pius X, and Benedict XV all clearly approved of this status quo established by their own Sacred Penitentiary and never showed the slightest inclination to reverse its decisions of 1853 and 1880.
 
While a couple using ABC could have the attitude of accepting a child, they are taking physical steps to prevent conception from being possible. NFP does not do that.
I see you added this last piece.

Tell me how charting, testing mucus, taking internal temeratures are nore taking definitive steps to aviod conception?
 
It’s even less impossible with ABC.

But the CCC mentions that impossibility :" In contrast, “every action that renders procreation impossible is intrinsically evil”

So, NFP should be more intrinsically evil than ABC.
What physical thing has someone practicing NFP done to their body to make procreation impossible? Abstinence is a non-act. You are trying to create a contradiction where none exists.
 
I see you added this last piece.

Tell me how charting, testing mucus, taking internal temeratures are nore taking definitive steps to aviod conception?
Do those steps make procreation impossible? No.

Does preventing a sperm from reaching the egg (barrier) make it impossible? Yes.

Does preventing the ovum from releasing an egg make it impossible? Yes.

Does preventing the egg from attaching to the lining of the uterus make it impossible? Yes.

Does killing the sperm chemically make procreation impossible? Yes.
 
Excellent point. In the end, the anti-Nfp argument is stuck in a rut: either married people may only engage in sex during fertile periods (in which you would need NFP to tell you that.), or married people must willfully remain in ignorance of their cycles.
Actually the only correct action, to fulfill the Catholic teaching of each act containing a pro-creation and a unitive aspect to it, and to aviod being in a state of mortal sin, is to throw away all charts, thermometers and just have sex every time you want to, or your partner requests it.

That’s the only way to fulfill the requirements. Anything to hamper this is intrinsically evil.
 
What physical thing has someone practicing NFP done to their body to make procreation impossible? Abstinence is a non-act. You are trying to create a contradiction where none exists.
Oh, now it’s an action that has to be done to the body? No no. The teaching does not state that. It includes all actions…that it has to include charts, thermometers, etc, since it is an action that someone willingly takes to avoid conception.
 
Actually the only correct action, to fulfill the Catholic teaching of each act containing a pro-creation and a unitive aspect to it, and to aviod being in a state of mortal sin, is to throw away all charts, thermometers and just have sex every time you want to, or your partner requests it.

That’s the only way to fulfill the requirements. Anything to hamper this is intrinsically evil.
Is this what you practice? If so, you are completely within Catholic teaching. Similarly, a couple who uses NFP is also within Catholic teaching. A couple who uses artificial methods of birth control or sterilization are not.
 
Similarly, a couple who uses NFP is also within Catholic teaching.
But the teaching itself is flawed. It contradicts itself. It creates a loophole where by their own statements there should be none.

There are two sets of teachings here, depending on wether you read the CCC or other teachings.
 
Oh, now it’s an action that has to be done to the body? No no. The teaching does not state that. It includes all actions…that it has to include charts, thermometers, etc, since it is an action that someone willingly takes to avoid conception.
You are either being deliberately obtuse, or you don’t understand what the Church is teaching.
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CCC:
2369 "By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man’s exalted vocation to parenthood."157 2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:159
Nothing in NFP takes an action which effects the natural consequences of the conjugal act and renders procreation impossible.

If you don’t believe that, then please explain clearly what you believe NFP does to change the natural consequences of the the conjugal act.
 
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