Hypocritical Contraception?

[Texas_Roofer]

And yet the Catechism states that every action should conform to these requirements, and even the teachings of sex in the Church…every action should have a pro-creative and unitive aspect to it.
This means every time a couple engages in intimacy. That is how the CCC is written. And that is how it’s taught -]and enforced/-]. Any deviation from that results in mortal sin, by the teachings themselves.

So there are teachings that are enforced by mortal sin that state that every act should have the unitive and procreative aspects to them, but then other teachings that state that if this act occur during the infertile time, it’s not necessary for the pro-creative aspect to be present?..

The procreative aspect is present whenever the relation occurs by natural means regardless if the individual relation occurs before, during or after the fertile period. The natural process is the key to church teaching

…Charting is just another means to have sex but avoid conceiving. And it’s man made. It’s just another contraceptive tool. Condoms, spermacide, thermometers, charts, it’s all tools to avoid conceiving…

That is not the teaching, The teaching is the infertile period is God made, not man made. The use of these periods to avoid conception is allowed.

I see you added this last piece.

Tell me how charting, testing mucus, taking internal temeratures are nore taking definitive steps to aviod conception?

These methods which use natural cycles are allowed to avoid conception for grave reasons. Notice the difference as opposed to say sterilization to prevent pregnancy. We can sterilize either party which renders the natural design ever infertile.

be patient this is not an easy subject

 

[rlg94086]

The procreative aspect is present whenever the relation occurs by natural means regardless if the individual relation occurs before, during or after the fertile period. The natural process is the key to church teaching That is not the teaching, The teaching is the infertile period is God made, not man made. The use of these periods to avoid conception is allowed.

These methods which use natural cycles are allowed to avoid conception for grave reasons. Notice the difference as opposed to say sterilization to prevent pregnancy. We can sterilize either party which renders the natural design ever infertile.

be patient this is not an easy subject

Thanks Texas Roofer…I think you explain it better than I do, and my patience is running out.

Quite frankly, I have no problem if someone wants to hold that NFP is illicit. If they choose not to use it, then that is fine.

**2373 **Sacred Scripture and the Church’s traditional practice see in large families a sign of God’s blessing and the parents’ generosity.

 

[Cathy]

Hi friends,
I just want to put in a good word for the babies. Before I was Catholic, my husband and I used ABC. Just as Janet Smith related in her talk on Contraception: Why not?, children became a problem rather than a blessing in our eyes. I had to beg my husband for the privilrege to bear children, even though he was making a very good salary. Then, I was 37 years old when pregnant with our second child, and my OB kept HOUNDING me to get amniocentesis, eventhough the procedure itself causes spontaneous abortions in a certain percentage of cases. And my mother-in-law talked about how she believed in killing children up to a year old if they were not up to certain standards. All of this traumatized me into agreeing to a tubal ligation upon the birth of my second child, which I have regretted terribly ever since. I love my two sons, but I miss the daughters and sons I might have had, and might have been chemically aborted at a very early stage in their lives. I spend much time and much of my treasure trying to convince others not to make my mistakes. That is my joyand my penance.

I have a dear friend who recently celebrated her 50th wedding anniversary together with her 9 natural and 4 adopted children and their large families. She and her husband were told she should never have children because of her history of tuberculosis since she was a small child (she spent all of her youth in a hospital for tuberculosis victims and was miraculously cured together with her friend who regularly prayed the Rosary with her). Most of us, if we knew what is good for us, would give anything to have such a big beautiful family. They pray the Rosary together on most of their special family occasions. Surely they have their trials, but the rewards far outweigh the difficulties.

 

[hasikelee]

Again, neither does any ABC…the chance is greater that you will conceive than supposedly on NFP.

The end is not the issue here; it is the means. Nowhere does the Catholic Church say we have to have sex and be little baby-making machines. The teaching clearly presents an idea that sex is good because it is unitive and procreative.

If your conclusion was correct, then the Church would support in-vitro fertilization. Yet, that is not true. The Church opposes in-vitro, primarily because it takes the unitive aspect out of sex.

I posted this earlier, but no one picked up on it. Maybe you would like to share your answer:

What’s the difference between killing Grandma now to get the inheritance, as opposed to waiiiiting until she dies? The end result is the same, isn’t it? Waiting for her to die of natural reasons is the same as killing her?

 

[holdencaulfield]

This topic comes up a lot, however this is my stance on it. Abortion, kills life. That is unarguable. Contraception kills life as well because the intent kills the ability that a baby is created. NFP leaves the couple open because it does not leave the chance out for life it is just a coincidence that life does not come out of it.

 

[LittleDeb]

I posted this earlier, but no one picked up on it. Maybe you would like to share your answer:

What’s the difference between killing Grandma now to get the inheritance, as opposed to waiiiiting until she dies? The end result is the same, isn’t it? Waiting for her to die of natural reasons is the same as killing her?

I, too, noticed that it got ignored. Glad you brought it up again.

 

[Good_Daughter]

When using NFP to “space children” you are still having sex, but making procreation impossible.

No, when using NFP to “space children” you are still having sex, but making reproduction impossible.

The sentence I quoted from you contains the critical error that keeps you from understanding Catholic teaching. You use the word “procreation” but give it a different meaning than the Catechism or Humanae Vitae. That is at the heart of your disconnect.

The term “procreative” is not, in places like the CCC and HV, concerned simply with creating new life. It cannot be interchanged with the term “reproductive”. Instead, the term “procreative” concerns the natural inclination of the marital act towards the creation of new life.

Have you ever wondered how the Church could call for every marital embrace to be both unitive and procreative? How does a couple experiencing pregnancy, menopause or cyclical infertility keep the marital act procreative? When you know what the Church means by “procreative”, it’s simple. They don’t change the inclination of the marital act towards its natural end. We know logically and scientifically that these acts will not be reproductive, but that is entirely due to nature’s (God’s) design.

When a couple wishes to have sex without pregnancy (and I’m willing to state openly that’s what most NFPers are after), they have two options. First they can use NFP which does not change the inclination of the marital act towards its natural end, allowing a couple to have sex that is procreative but non-reproductive. Second, they can contracept which does change the inclination of the marital act away from its natural end. As a result, contraceptors have sex that is both non-procreative and non-reproductive.

If you read this post, I’m sure you’ll tear it all apart, but I do hope it gives you something to think about, at least. God bless.

 

[Good_Daughter]

Gosh, I hope Little Deb likes what I posted. Between her and fix, I don’t think I’ll ever need to have an original thought on any of these topics.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I would like to ask people who marry out of college who have no money to raise a family what they do if not use NFP. Do they abstain until they are ready to have children, or merely have a hundred children.

 

[mets]

The teaching clearly presents an idea that sex is good because it is unitive and procreative.

Could anybody point me to some passages in the Bible where it talks about sex having to be both procreative and unitive? Or just some other passages that they based HV on? I already know Onan, check that one off the list. I’m a bit confused, because I know in 1 Corinthians Paul says that a husband and a wife should not refrain from being with each other except for a time to pray and reflect, and that they should then reunite so as not to give into temptation. I don’t see how this is possible, however, unless you are deliberately using some method to prevent a pregnancy, whether it is NFP or otherwise…in which case, we’re back to where we started. Either that or you will have quite a large amount of children. If you saw the news today, babies born in 2007 in the US will cost around $250,000 - $300,000 to raise, and that doesn’t include private/Catholic high schools or colleges. Children are indeed a blessing, but certainly there is a point when you have to be responsible to the ones you already have, no?

Also, I mean this in a purely inquisitive way, I’m not trying to be rhetorical with any of this.

 

[LittleDeb]

Gosh, I hope Little Deb likes what I posted. Between her and fix, I don’t think I’ll ever need to have an original thought on any of these topics.

Love it, love it, love it! I’m so glad you are here. I’ve been a bit tired and sick lately so it has been hard to be up to my full big mouth…

Plus, it has been very disconcerting to read by some in this thread that by currently abstaining, I am contracepting. I haven’t figured out that logic. I wish someone could explain this phenomenon of having sex and abstaining being the same thing. We’ve been too sick to be together so we are at total abstinence. How is that still having sex?

I would love to have another baby right away, but my body won’t take it. My 6-month-old was at home and I saw a newborn. I didn’t think I was capable of baby fever especially since pregnancy is so hard on my body. But, oh! She was so tiny and cute!

 

[LittleDeb]

Could anybody point me to some passages in the Bible where it talks about sex having to be both procreative and unitive?

Our late Holy Father shows it in deep detail. Start here: ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM

I’ve been studying Theology of the Body off and on since 1993. I have a really good handle on about 10 of all of those 129 talks.

The first command we are given in Scripture is “Be fruitful.” The second command is “multiply.” We are told a few passages later that this union, created by God, makes us “one flesh.”

Contraception happens when the above are viewed as ‘suggestions’ or ‘metaphors.’

 

[Cathy]

I would like to ask people who marry out of college who have no money to raise a family what they do if not use NFP. Do they abstain until they are ready to have children, or merely have a hundred children.

As my parents did when my dad was an intern earning $75 per month, they trust God and get as much help from relatives, friends, and in their case, Adventist missionaries, as they can. My mom stuffed herself with pillows so she’d look fat instead of pregnant so she could keep her job a bit longer. She just turned 90 this year, and on my birthday she told me I was an “accident.” I thank God for that “accident.” I love my life, though I haven’t always felt that way, and I love God for giving it to me.

 

[Calliso]

Our late Holy Father shows it in deep detail. Start here: ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM

I’ve been studying Theology of the Body off and on since 1993. I have a really good handle on about 10 of all of those 129 talks.

The first command we are given in Scripture is “Be fruitful.” The second command is “multiply.” We are told a few passages later that this union, created by God, makes us “one flesh.”

Contraception happens when the above are viewed as ‘suggestions’ or ‘metaphors.’

I am not against contraception I am all for it in fact but there is another way to view the be fruitful and multiply passages as well. Notice that both times God said that the human race was almost gone! of course he was going to tell us to multiply! And another way to look at it is it wasn;t a command more so then a blessing from God. Though I take more of the view of it being a command for a specific time, not that we should stop having babies now…but I think we have done our job of filling the earth pretty well…so I donlt think it is any sin if a few of us have a few less or even no children. And by us I mean married Christians.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Could anybody point me to some passages in the Bible where it talks about sex having to be both procreative and unitive? Or just some other passages that they based HV on? I already know Onan, check that one off the list. I’m a bit confused, because I know in 1 Corinthians Paul says that a husband and a wife should not refrain from being with each other except for a time to pray and reflect, and that they should then reunite so as not to give into temptation. I don’t see how this is possible, however, unless you are deliberately using some method to prevent a pregnancy, whether it is NFP or otherwise…in which case, we’re back to where we started. Either that or you will have quite a large amount of children. If you saw the news today, babies born in 2007 in the US will cost around $250,000 - $300,000 to raise, and that doesn’t include private/Catholic high schools or colleges. Children are indeed a blessing, but certainly there is a point when you have to be responsible to the ones you already have, no?

Also, I mean this in a purely inquisitive way, I’m not trying to be rhetorical with any of this.

As the issue is preceding the natural design for the man made contraception options it would be hard to ask what God said about the contraception methods made by men? Which is more important than the question asked. The Bible is full of issues on relations and consistent in that the instruction is to apply self control, no relations outside of marriage, etc.

FYI-
omsoul.com/pdfs/P-BVC.pdf

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I would like to ask people who marry out of college who have no money to raise a family what they do if not use NFP. Do they abstain until they are ready to have children, or merely have a hundred children.

Well I married in college so maybe I am not qualified to answer, and we do not have 100 children. But one of the objectives is to address why the couple is marrying? If they intend to marry be unitive and wish to delay children why is NFP such a problem? If they are marrying to have relations then they will probably figure out the problem on their own, that is why the pre marriage class are required. BTW - my daughter did not mind attending my graduation

 

[rlg94086]

I am not against contraception I am all for it in fact but there is another way to view the be fruitful and multiply passages as well. Notice that both times God said that the human race was almost gone! of course he was going to tell us to multiply! And another way to look at it is it wasn;t a command more so then a blessing from God. Though I take more of the view of it being a command for a specific time, not that we should stop having babies now…but I think we have done our job of filling the earth pretty well…so I donlt think it is any sin if a few of us have a few less or even no children. And by us I mean married Christians.

That may be okay in the Church of Calliso, but we aren’t allowed to be fast and loose with our understanding of Scripture and morality. As I posted earlier, *all *Christian leaders, Protestant and Catholic agreed contraception was a sin up until the 1900’s. What changed to the Bible at that time?

 

[Good_Daughter]

I think you may be splitting hairs here Good Daughter. I’m pretty certain that every couple using NFP is still “open to new life, meaning conception.” If they aren’t, what do you believe their attitude would be if/when they conceive?

Being open to procreation, by definition, would mean you are open to conception, should God bless your family with a child.

While it seems like the Church teaches every marital embrace should be “open to life”, I think it’s helpful to go even deeper where we see that the Church more accurately teaches that every marital embrace should be “open to its natural end”. While that may sound like splitting hairs, it can be an important distinction for those trying to understand the difference between contraceptive and non-contraceptive birth control.

A couple using birth control, regardless of the type (contraceptive or not) is not open to life. The difference is that an NFP couple always accepts the natural end of sex while a contracepting couple always refuses to accept the natural end and substitute an end of their own choosing.

This acceptance does seem to give the NFP couple an advantage over the contracepting couple in the case of an unexpected pregnancy. NFP users are human however, and though they may love and respect life in all its stages (especially that of their own children) an unexpected pregnancy can, at the same time, be hard on anyone.

I think Church teaching is less concerned with specifically being open to procreation (ie. conception) and more concerned with couples keeping each marital embrace ordered towards procreation. After all, aren’t the pregnant and the menopausal capable of procreative sex?

 

[Good_Daughter]

… but then other teachings that state that if this act occur during the infertile time, it’s not necessary for the pro-creative aspect to be present?

Again, this is where you misunderstand. The Church teaces that all marital acts should have the procreative aspect present regardless of the relative fertility of the married couple. Couples who are experiencing pregnancy, menopause, or any type of infertility are still capable of and called to procreative sex. It’s reproductive sex that’s not always possible or required.

 

[Cathy]

I would like to ask people who marry out of college who have no money to raise a family what they do if not use NFP. Do they abstain until they are ready to have children, or merely have a hundred children.

Hi holdencaulfield. I have to apologize in a way for my last response to you. I guess I shouldn’t respond when I’m so tired. I responded as if you had asked “What do they do if they use NFP[and then become pregnant]?”

Your question, as you really wrote it is a good one.
Cathy