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ProdglArchitect
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That’s why I specifically said that they are able, not that they do. A homosexual paring will never naturally be able to fulfill the purpose of marriage, so it will remain one slight step worse in my eyes, even though both are atrocities,
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JohnMichaels
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christianity.about.com/od/glossary/a/Agape.htmGee - - How about Love…How about …Agape…
Works for me…
Peace
James
You accept this as your definition of agape, or would you like to define your own? then I’ll reply in full to your initial post.
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JRKH
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I think that this is a very good definition and I accept it…although I hesitate to limit God strictly to this definition.
I would add that Agape type Love is the elemental force by which all good things come into being…
Peace
James
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JohnMichaels
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touche. Still, rejected. Don’t like the idea of a governing body controlling how I live. That also meshes with how I see God.From the OP…
While I expect this to spin into multiple directions ranging from morality to same-sex marriage to abstinence…I’m sure I can’t think of them all. Some of you feel free to bring something up & test how I’d feel.
Authority is one of the “directions” these sorts of conversations can “spin into”…
So I brought it up
Yea but, we’re gonna have to nibble or the debate ends very quickly.
Ah, but onto the meat of it all
Without limiting God, as you suggested in another post, All I’ll do is say that my brain rejects that as illogical based on the definition I showed you.
command:
*to direct authoritatively : order
to exercise a dominating influence over : have command of: *
unconditional:
Without conditions or limitations; absolute
Unconditional with conditions does not compute. When I enter that into the ol’ noggin’ it kicks it back out & says “insufficient data”
Disagree. I believe it was purposefully created with pleasure in mind. It makes us want to do it. It is a gift. A depressed man can engage in intercourse and for a brief moment all his worries dissipate. What a blessing it is indeed.
Well, the blessing is sort of a byproduct, but I wouldn’t dare assume God made that mistake. He meant it to be pleasureful
Well, I think I covered that above nicely, too
I’ll tread more carefully in the future
Cheers!
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Prodigal_Son
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Don’t bother checking into the statistics about these things. That would force you to consider whether your views are false. Oh, and definitely don’t ask the question, “If abstinence leads to higher rates of divorce, then why do societies with greater degrees of abstinence have lower rates of divorce?”disagree. disqualified.
While this alone would (based on how I handled this at the time, & currently) in and of itself eliminate this religion from consideration, I still do want to go over other issues. So I’ll leave this issue at 99,9% closed.
Argument was closed on civil union, also
I’d like to shift focus slightly to abstinence. I am in favor of not waiting, and believe it provides benefits to married couples
From my personal experience you don’t really know the kind of crazy another is going to develop until you’ve entered into a sexual relationship.
I feel abstinence leads to higher divorce. I believe it to be true.
Cheers
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JohnMichaels
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On top of that, I also believe one of the great blessing God bestowed apon us was the pleasure we can derive from our bodies free of charge. & I believe that the evidence of a pleasing sensation is proof it was intended to be used as recreation as well as procreationDon’t bother checking into the statistics about these things. That would force you to consider whether your views are false. Oh, and definitely don’t ask the question, “If abstinence leads to higher rates of divorce, then why do societies with greater degrees of abstinence have lower rates of divorce?”
I asked God to tell me if I was right in this feeling I had in my heart, and during intense prayer he revealed to me I was fine to view these things as I do.
That isn’t good enough evidence?
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Prodigal_Son
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Surely rape and pedophilia feel extremely good to those who practice them. Is this pleasing sensation evidence that those things are OK too?On top of that, I also believe one of the great blessing God bestowed apon us was the pleasure we can derive from our bodies free of charge. & I believe that the evidence of a pleasing sensation is proof it was intended to be used as recreation as well as procreation
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JohnMichaels
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I’ll add consensual and defeat your argument soundly
Furthermore I believe you should stay away from pedophilia…I mean…come on now…
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Prodigal_Son
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I wasn’t making an argument. You said that an action feeling good was evidence of its being morally permissible. I deny that.
If goods feelings are evidence of moral permissibility, then this is at least *some *evidence that things like pedophilia or being a Peeping Tom or brutally murdering people is morally permissible. Mind you, I’ll allow that the harms of these actions make it so that, all things considered, you could say that the actions are wrong. But I don’t understand how pleasure, on its own, could provide ANY evidence that an action is permissible.
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JohnMichaels
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What I’m saying, is the pleasure is evidence God wants us to use it. Be it alone, or with a consenting adult. Procreation, or Consenting Recreation.
I would NEVER claim God approves of forcing yourself on another for your own gain. How wicked that sounds. That isn’t love. I was told God is Love!
Those things you mention, rape & pedophilia occur in the mind, and are acted out in the flesh.
However, I don’t have to defend those things, you do
Exodus 21:7-10
Deuteronomy 20:14
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
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Prodigal_Son
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It’s pleasurable to scratch itches. Fiercely, powerfully pleasurable, in fact. Is that evidence that God either (a) wants us to itch, or (b) wants us to scratch?
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JohnMichaels
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You talking about a very specific pleasure. I agree with you.
It also feels great when someone tells you they love you. I encourage saying it often, likens the chances you’ll hear it in return. God would agree, no?
Charity also fills us with a good feeling doesn’t it? Helping others who may not have as much as us to eat? I know it makes me feel good.
Raising Children also, I’d imagine, is a wonderful feeling.
But sex is a very different kind of feeling isn’t it? A pleasure not found in multiple ways, like the charitable sex feeling lol
Why wouldn’t a man become aroused at the mere thought of doing God’s will? Bringing another follower of Christ into the world.
Sex could feel like if you ran your finger through a wet paper towel. Agitating that organ would cause a strange feeling, but you’d know you just set the wheels in motion. The rest is up to God.
With such a feeling, it would be easy to abstain. Why, just a night on the couch with your spouse holding hands, kissing & cuddling would derive more pleasure than sexual activity.
Except the obvious pleasure of bringing into God’s world a new life. But, you could then look at it logically based on financial situation, rooms in your home…etc etc. Also, you could get the same emotional swelling in other ways…many other ways
No, I believe this unique pleasure is a gift in that we can use it alone also. For those of us who are sterile, or for whatever reason end up without a physical partner in life, at least we have ourselves.
After all, our bodies are a gift from God, why condemn portions of the gift?
it just all adds up more logically the way I’m saying it. At least to me
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Prodigal_Son
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I’m puzzled. My position is that itching is not helpful, even though it’s pleasurable. Pleasure, on its own, does not tend to make an action right.
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JohnMichaels
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And I’m arguing varying degrees of pleasure. You can’t say scratching an itch & doing charitable works derive the same pleasure
& btw…itching isn’t morally wrong…
On top of my argument that you’re trying to use a very small pleasure among the varying degrees…I’m arguing sex is a completely unique pleasure. AND part of God’s gift to us
You seem to ignore my argument that sex should feel like anything else, then.
Are you implying God made a mistake aligning this very specific pleasure with something he was vehemently against?
Of course you wouldn’t. It’s part of his blessing to us, his creation!
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JRKH
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Gee - that must make it a real pain to live in any sort of community…
I take it you prefer anarchy?..?
But you see - God is NOT controlling you. God gave us Free Will.
There is nothing wrong with a short debate when Truth is advanced. .
Well - as I said above…God is not controlling you. He has given us free will…Yet even when we sin - reject Him fail to keep his commands…He still Loves us. So that takes care of the “unconditional” part of your confusion.
As for commands…I repeat what I said earlier. All of God’s commands (as Catholics understand them) are based on two and those two are based on Love (See Mt 22:36-40) Jesus gave a “new command” that we Love one another as He has Loved us - and by this the world will know that we are His disciples…That we Love one another (John 13:34-35)
So this is the foundation upon which our faith is built.
The command - that which is to be the dominating influence in our Life is Love…Agape Love…
So you see - there is no contradiction at all…
I do not disagree that God designed it to be pleasurable and that we should desire it.Disagree. I believe it was purposefully created with pleasure in mind. It makes us want to do it. It is a gift. A depressed man can engage in intercourse and for a brief moment all his worries dissipate. What a blessing it is indeed.
Well, the blessing is sort of a byproduct, but I wouldn’t dare assume God made that mistake. He meant it to be pleasureful
However - the core purpose of sex is procreation. That is what the organs chemicals, desires and pleasures are all “naturally” ordered toward. So the pleasure aspect, as a design my God, should not be separated from the core purpose of God’s overall design.
This is why the Church’s teaching makes so much sense. Because it is takes into account all of the aspects of sexuality and delivers a comprehensive and well thought out teaching.
Homosexuality is taught against because it is, by the very nature of our design, a disordered act. Secondarily, certain homosexual acts are dangerous and putting another in such danger (physically as well as morally) violates the Law of Love and since God is Love…It follows that such things are offensive to God.
Peace
James
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JohnMichaels
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Let me switch this around a little, and see if you’d still agree
Said in this order, you still stand by it?
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JohnMichaels
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Anarchy no. Big difference between a community preferring I don’t go around killing & raping. And a community interested in what I do in my bedroom. Savvy?
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JRKH
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JRKH
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Yes I savvy…but what you said was…
“Don’t like the idea of a governing body controlling how I live.”
And that is what government does. It tells you what is allowable and what is not.
The bottom line is that - while you don’t like a governing body controlling you - you are willing to accept it if you see an advantage to yourself in it.
Peace
James
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