Hypothetical Situation

[Flavius_Aetius]

I’ve been in a bit of worry about this question and hoped the opinion and facts of others could help me find an answer.

I realize Christ promised to defend the Church from Satan, all the human error that seems present in the Church has led me to this question.

Would the Catholic Church cease to exist if a corrupt Pope went through the process necessary to make a infallible statement and then said statement was something of abominable blasphemy? Say they sat down and in clear mental health and mind said in an infallible position “Jesus was but a man” or “God is dead”; what would happen to the Church then? Would not the rule of infallibility mean that this was a staunch truth now that essentially would see the collapse of the authority of the Church?

I already understand peoples reasoning why this would never happen and I realize that through many horrible Popes this had never happened, but that is why this is a hypothetical question.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Well, if your hypothetical situation was true, then reality would be different than it is and the Catholic Church would be false.

It may help to apply your hypothetical question to God, since it is really God who speaks infallibly through the Church. What if God revealed that murder is now ok? Would He cease to be God? I think the answer to a hypothetical impossible question is to merely acknowledge that, or perhaps go the route I did above and say something like “then you’d be in a different reality where God is a fake.”

 

[Annie39]

I’ve been in a bit of worry about this question and hoped the opinion and facts of others could help me find an answer.

I realize Christ promised to defend the Church from Satan, all the human error that seems present in the Church has led me to this question.

Would the Catholic Church cease to exist if a corrupt Pope went through the process necessary to make a infallible statement and then said statement was something of abominable blasphemy? Say they sat down and in clear mental health and mind said in an infallible position “Jesus was but a man” or “God is dead”; what would happen to the Church then? Would not the rule of infallibility mean that this was a staunch truth now that essentially would see the collapse of the authority of the Church?

I already understand peoples reasoning why this would never happen and I realize that through many horrible Popes this had never happened, but that is why this is a hypothetical question.

I realize that you may not want to answer this question but why do you ask?

 

[Flavius_Aetius]

Well, if your hypothetical situation was true, then reality would be different than it is and the Catholic Church would be false.

It may help to apply your hypothetical question to God, since it is really God who speaks infallibly through the Church. What if God revealed that murder is now ok? Would He cease to be God? I think the answer to a hypothetical impossible question is to merely acknowledge that, or perhaps go the route I did above and say something like “then you’d be in a different reality where God is a fake.”

I am aware of Jesus’ promise that Satan would never overcome the Church he establishes, and I’m sure God has already seen the entire history of the Church and not once will it fall into the scenario I’ve placed.

However the difference is a Pope is still but a imperfect man, so the hypothetical question still requires answering I believe. So to start, if this were to happen would the Catholic Church simply wither away with it’s entire authority shred apart?

 

[joshrp]

I’ve been in a bit of worry about this question and hoped the opinion and facts of others could help me find an answer.

I realize Christ promised to defend the Church from Satan, all the human error that seems present in the Church has led me to this question.

Would the Catholic Church cease to exist if a corrupt Pope went through the process necessary to make a infallible statement and then said statement was something of abominable blasphemy? Say they sat down and in clear mental health and mind said in an infallible position “Jesus was but a man” or “God is dead”; what would happen to the Church then? Would not the rule of infallibility mean that this was a staunch truth now that essentially would see the collapse of the authority of the Church?

I already understand peoples reasoning why this would never happen and I realize that through many horrible Popes this had never happened, but that is why this is a hypothetical question.

I don’t think it will happen ever. Why worry about it?

 

[Flavius_Aetius]

I realize that you may not want to answer this question but why do you ask?

I don’t think it will happen ever. Why worry about it?

I worry about it because right now my faith is like a shattered mirror. I still love the Catholic Church and I suppose I could say I believe in God and Jesus, but His Church is so imperfect that I can’t not imagine this occurring in these godless times and suddenly atheists, fundamentalists and all of our enemies win in one fall swoop!

 

[DavidFilmer]

However the difference is a Pope is still but a imperfect man, so the hypothetical question still requires answering I believe. So to start, if this were to happen would the Catholic Church simply wither away with it’s entire authority shred apart?

It need not be anything outright evil or blasphemous. It really need not be anything that most laypeople can even understand. ANY change in Doctrine would invalidate the Church, no matter how minor or obscure.

Even if the error was small or obscure, the fact would remain that the Church has incorporated error into Her Doctrine. Better to have a faith with an incomplete (but true) doctrine than a faith with complete doctrine plus one error. Thus, I think you would see a huge exodus to the Greek Orthodox, whose doctrine is incomplete but has not admitted error.

But I don’t think the Church would ever completely pass away - it would remain, just like mainline protestant faiths remain even after a large portion of their membership splits off.

 

[DavidFilmer]

His Church is so imperfect

The Church is the spotless Bride of Christ - She is perfect.

It’s Her members who are imperfect. And it has always been so.

 

[MarcoPolo]

However the difference is a Pope is still but a imperfect man, so the hypothetical question still requires answering I believe. So to start, if this were to happen would the Catholic Church simply wither away with it’s entire authority shred apart?

Again, remember, it is only God who is infallible speaking through the Pope. So if a Pope’s “infallible” statements contradict, your hypothetical question necessarily says God contradicts Himself. But in light of your shaken faith (which I understand can be challenging), if the answer to your hypothetical question was “yes, the Church would wither away,” what difference would that make in your faith?

 

[Flavius_Aetius]

Again, remember, it is only God who is infallible speaking through the Pope. So if a Pope’s “infallible” statements contradict, your hypothetical question necessarily says God contradicts Himself. But in light of your shaken faith (which I understand can be challenging), if the answer to your hypothetical question was “yes, the Church would wither away,” what difference would that make in your faith?

I asked it because I wanted to hear the apologetic response. Honestly I am rather grateful for the responses given thus far that “Yes, the Church would lose all authority if it’s doctrine was tampered with blasphemy”. What I feared was people would begin creating loopholes saying “Well, that Pope didn’t count even if he was sound of mind and elected in the right manner” if people began taking that defense honestly I believe it would only prove that the Church wasn’t Divinely protected and only a human institution that its followers would desperately try to defend.

That being said, I do feel more so that the Church itself would never fall by this scenario. I still do feel that the doctrine is Divinely protected, however if it were to happen that doctrine was altered and it’s authority destroyed-I do not believe I would remain Catholic or theistic in any sense. The Catholic Church is the only church for me, no other denomination would suffice-maybe Eastern Orthodox but I am not sure.

 

[Goldrock]

If a pope made an ex cathedra statement directly contradicting a previously defined dogma I think that it would only invalidate the authority of the hypothetical pope and not the Church as a whole. I think that he would simply be deposed and a new pope elected. Or maybe God would prevent such a scenario from ever occurring. Interesting thought experiment.

 

[Warrior1979]

If a pope made an ex cathedra statement directly contradicting a previously defined dogma I think that it would only invalidate the authority of the hypothetical pope and not the Church as a whole.

I personally find this discussion very interesting. There were some events that occurred in the past, especially the Old Testament, that were done for various reasons at various times, that were typically not permitted. This includes the killing of innocents, divorce, etc. Theoretically, God could do/permit these things again, for reasons unknown to us, simply because He is God.

However, if He did so today, this type of action would show up as a contradiction in dogma. Logic would dictate that either God decided post-Christ that He will never do anything that would show up as a contradiction, or that man has interpreted infallibility incorrectly.

What’s the answer?..beats me.

 

[joshrp]

I personally find this discussion very interesting. There were some events that occurred in the past, especially the Old Testament, that were done for various reasons at various times, that were typically not permitted. This includes the killing of innocents, divorce, etc. Theoretically, God could do/permit these things again, for reasons unknown to us, simply because He is God.

However, if He did so today, this type of action would show up as a contradiction in dogma. Logic would dictate that either God decided post-Christ that He will never do anything that would show up as a contradiction, or that man has interpreted infallibility incorrectly.

What’s the answer?..beats me.

I don’t know. Why don’t we ask the Pope himself what he thinks about all this?

 

[Deconi]

Hypothetically, the Pope may wake up tomorrow and curse God or deny His reality.

Hypothetically, he may not wake up tomorrow.

Life is that simple for a Catholic! God’s ways are mysterious, not complex.

God is either Truth, or not. Lie once, always the liar!

“Suffer not the children to come unto me for theirs is the kingdom of God” - refers to simple understanding, not complex musings…

 

[promethius]

I worry about it because right now my faith is like a shattered mirror. I still love the Catholic Church and I suppose I could say I believe in God and Jesus, but His Church is so imperfect that I can’t not imagine this occurring in these godless times

Meh, it won’t happen. If it does, however, I’ll be an atheist or a Jew. The authority of the scripture is built into the Catholic church, not the other way around. In other words, we have the teaching of Christ because of the magisterial authority of the Church. That means that if that church is shown to be false we can be clear on one thing: Christ is a lie.

Since I don’t think that is the case, I reject the hypothetical since it cannot happen. Either God is true and the church is protected, or God does not exist.

and suddenly atheists, fundamentalists and all of our enemies -]win in one fall swoop!/-]

It’s not a competition. If the church is false and God does not exist, then there never was anything to win to begin with.

 

[RaphaelJ]

The possibility that you gave, in my opinion, might have the same probability as people finding a Gospel wherein Jesus murdered someone.