How would we know?
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So what did he do during his reign that only he (out of all the other cardinals) could?
P
PJM
Guest
Its been a few years but I taught Confirmation classes for several years.
We covered:
Basic bible useage
The Commandments
The Sacraments
The Mass
The Creed: what it means
That’s all I can recall at the moment, but i ASSURE you, the class had to doa whole lot more than show up.
B
Brooklyn
Guest
I think the fact that we have had corrupt popes down through the centuries, and yet none of them, despite their own personal failings, have ever led the Church astray spiritually, shows that for the most part, it really doesn’t matter who the actual person is who sits in the Chair of Peter. Certainly it is much better for the Church if the pope is a holy man who has totally devoted his life to Our Lord and His Church. But if he is a terrible sinner, Christ is still in charge, and the Holy Spirit will not allow the Pope to mislead the Church in faith or morals. Therefore, we never have a valid reason to reject the Pope. To reject the Pope, no matter who he is and how great a sinner he may personally be, is to reject Jesus Christ.
H
Honorius
Guest
I would say that if the decision of a pope is protected by the Holy Spirit, what would that mean for the anti-popes? I feel like the reasoning becomes that since the holy spirit would guide and protect the decision of the cardinals when choosing a pope, it must also do the same when cardinals convene and elect an anti-pope. If not, it must mean that the Holy Spirit is not there all the time when there is a meeting of cardinals, which opens the way to cast doubt on the tenures of such men as Boniface VII and Alexander VI.
M
MorEphrem
Guest
Oh my, this logic is abhorrent. You realize by saying these things you implicitly accept that (1) loses, in part, his humanity by subsuming on his will - it is logically conceivable (in the truly philosophical sense) that the Pope proclaimed that Arius was correct in his Christology. I would want that Pope immediately deposed. (2) To equate rejecting the Pope to rejecting God Himself is the most radical neo-ultramontanism I’ve heard in a while… Such an unqualified statement makes me cringe, along with its implications.
If you truly think the Pope can necessarily not err in these matters you accept his humanity is somehow dismissed (at least partially) upon election. I would like to see that theologically and philosophically justified.
L
livingwordunity
Guest
If a Pope is validly elected he is the Vicar of Christ which means the only one with more authority is Christ Himself.
J
Jerbear
Guest
I’d say yes. I’m not gonna say that someone young cannot have strong faith because they most definitely can but when looking at the election of Pope John XII, it is estimated that he was about 18 years old when he became the pope. The church used to be very corrupt as they had so much power, along with the fact that I don’t feel like an 18 year old child is spiritually strong enough or a good enough leader to become pope to lead catholics worldwide.
P
Phemie
Guest
It was Cardinal Ratzinger himself who, in 1997, when asked if the Holy Spirit picked the Pope replied
R
RPRPsych
Guest
I think that’s a very good quote.
M
MorEphrem
Guest
Ok? That’s a non sequitur to my post that you quoted.
And I do like that Ratzinger quote
.
M
Marie5890
Guest
It’s comes from a great interview Raymond Arroyo did with him while he was still Cardinal.
Highly recommend anyone to go and listen to it. It’s part of the “World Over” archives and can be found on YouTube I believe
B
Brooklyn
Guest
The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and as someone else stated, that means the only one with more authority is Christ Himself. Our Lord also promised that the the gates of hell would never prevail against the Church. In all of the 2000 years of Church history, although we have had some very bad popes, never once have they misled the Church in faith or morals. Why is it illogical to believe that no matter who sits in the Chair of Peter, we as Catholics owe him total allegiance and loyality. It is not up to me or anyone else on this earth to sit in judgment of the Pope, no matter who he is. That is Catholicism 101.
I’m sorry if that makes you cringe.
C
corsair
Guest
No matter who is elected Pope, it is according to God will. God allows us to sometimes select someone not so good, as evidenced from past history. But he always draws something good out of it. Hopefully we learn from it.
L
livingwordunity
Guest
Then I must have misunderstood your post. Sorry about that. About the quote. I’m assuming you mean this one.Ok? That’s a non sequitur to my post that you quoted.
And I do like that Ratzinger quote
“The more one understands the holiness of God, the more one understands the opposite of what is holy, namely, the deceptive masks of the devil. Jesus Christ himself is the greatest example of this: before him, the Holy One, Satan could not keep hidden and was constantly compelled to show himself. So one might say that the disappearance of the awareness of the demonic indicates a related decline in holiness. The devil can take refuge in his favorite element, anonymity, if he is not exposed by the radiance of the person united to Christ.” - The Ratzinger Report, page 148
M
MorEphrem
Guest
Ok, again, this is terrible logic. Look at the argument you’re making.
(1) The Pope is the Vicar of Christ
(2) Only Christ has more authority than His Vicar
(3) Our Lord promised hell wouldn’t consume the Church
(c) Anyone elected Pope loses his free will to act contrary to truthDo you see the issue I take with what you’re saying? Not only is that a terrible argument, but you mention a million and a half unrelated bits. By the way, by conceding that there are “bad” popes you pass a certain judgment on them yourself. What you try to forward as “Catholicism 101” is ultramontanism. Now I will withdraw from this thread before I get penalized.
To livingwordunity, I meant the quote of Cardinal Ratzinger posted by Phemie on the second page.
B
Brooklyn
Guest
Nowhere did I say that the pope loses his free will. The pope can lose his salvation just like all the rest of us. I am saying that the pope is not allowed to mislead the church in faith and morals. I have no idea why that doesn’t make sense to you, and I honestly do not know where you are coming from. It is not my judgment that there have been bad popes. That is a fact of history. You are really not making any sense to me.
B
Brooklyn
Guest
One thing I would like to add is that because of the great responsibility he has been given and all of the special graces he is also given to fulfill that responsibility of leading the Church, I think that God’s judgment on the pope is much harsher and stronger than on any of the rest of us. To whom much is given, much is expected. That is why we must pray for him every day. He is a special target of the devil. We must lift up his hands just as Moses’ hands were lifted up by the Israelites in battle.
V
Veridical16
Guest
I think the question is the wrong one to ask in terms of how we look at the Papacy.
It’s not is the man selected the one God would have willed?
**It is, Is the Man selected doing God’s will? **
Really this is a time to reflect on what God’s plan for all of us is, and how the Pope is no different than this as a soul.
Fr. Casey in one conference said, we have two images of ourselves: the way God sees us as we ought to be and do, and the way we are , and it is our desire to conform our wills with God, so that some day, every day, we are the way God sees us.
youtube.com/watch?v=OlpTFUqOkj0
He then said, Mary is the only person conceived on Earth where there was only one image of her, since her will was perfectly conformed with God all her life, and therefore she was as she was before God and men.
So when looking at that truth, if a bishop is in a position of holding the chair of Peter? By that point does it matter if the ‘right man’ was selected? Obviously, the Pope desired by God, is the Pope who seeks to do his will NOW. So the person once the office is taken, is the right person if he strives to do the Will of the Lord!
The question may be irrelevant. I think the faithful should just be praying that whomever holds the Office seeks to do God’s will, and that his faith, hope, and Charity be perfected daily by Grace.
Two examples:
One could witness one righteous person, with his faith intact, and at some point he could succumb to the weight of the Office, perhaps not be as good at wielding the authority of the office as he liked, maybe even get a weakened will through the pontificate and not always do as God urges. So even if God saw that he was a good candidate the Cardinals may have picked, and the Cardinals discerned as best as they could that he was good man, in the present one could say, ‘oh they made a mistake’ ‘maybe God wanted someone else’
Another could witness the placing of one lukewarm or bishop with bad will or neglectful will only known to God and a few, but at any given point during his time in office, becomes Humble, responds to Grace, and his will becomes more and more conformed to Christ’s, and the Cardinals perhaps overlooked or neglected to see that this was possible.
This makes it impossible on the outside to truly say, “oh the Holy Spirit did or did not guide” the election when looking at this or that papacy within the Moment, even within a century, one can not see the fruits planted or not planted perhaps for many laity.
Obviously when looking at individual pontiffs, throughout history and their erroneous homilies or even in handling certain heresy battles, one could say, *“oh they did not do what they ought to do” *
But that still does not mean they could not have been the Pope, God wanted them to be.
The Right Pope is the in the Doing, not in who or where he comes from so every man who takes office can be the right Pope/man elected, even the very bad ones in past centuries, had the opportunity every day in their lives to repent of their personal sins and be the saint they ought to be, even the ones who achieved the office through bribery.
The graces of that one holy office is for the taking until the end of time.
B
Brendan_64
Guest
This is not possible.
This is Christ’s Church on Earth and the Pope is the successor of St Peter. It might look like some strange choices of Pope have been made at times, but we do not know God’s plan for His Church and how all of these choices fit into His overall plan.
This is Christ’s Church on Earth and the Pope is the successor of St Peter. It might look like some strange choices of Pope have been made at times, but we do not know God’s plan for His Church and how all of these choices fit into His overall plan.
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